The Instigator
scorepit
Con (against)
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The Contender
David_Debates
Pro (for)
Winning
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Catholicism

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David_Debates
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 2/24/2018 Category: Religion
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 447 times Debate No: 109455
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (4)
Votes (1)

 

scorepit

Con

Catholics believe that being gay is a sin but that's dumb. God made them gay. That's like god inventing blondes and then saying if your blonde your a sinner it's ridiculous. Catholics also believe that masturbation is wrong which it isn't, its a biological urge that god allowed you to have. Catholics also pray and worship statues and portraits and in the christian bible it specifically states not to do that. Catholicism is also extremely strict when it comes to what to do and not to do on specific times at specific dates. It's ridiculous and dumb. Catholicism is basically a very strict chastity supporting version of christianity.
David_Debates

Pro

To offer a rebuttal to your points:

1) Catholics believe that homosexual behavior (A man lying in bed with another man) is a sin. We do not believe that being gay is a sin. The action with intent is a sin, the temptation is in no way a sin.

2) It's not like God saying blondes are sinners. It's Him giving us all different temptations. Through these temptations, we can learn more about ourselves and, more importantly, Him.

3) Masturbation is clearly a sin. The fact that it is a biological urge doesn't justify it, as it is also a biological urge for me to have sex outside of marriage. It is also a biological urge for me hurt others when they hurt me. These aren't suddenly okay because "God made my body that way." Such an argument wildly misinterprets the idea of choice.

4) We don't worship statues and portraits. Do you have a photo of your grandmother? Do you look at it? We have photos of the mothers and fathers of our church. We look at them just like you do of your grandmother.

5) Right. We have holidays. We have days of fasting. How is this contradictory to anything taught by either the Church or Jesus?

6) What do you mean by the statement "strict chastity?" Aren't all Christian doctrines calling their congregations to be free of sin?

With that argument out of the way, my constructive:

Catholicism is a Christian denomination.

It doesn't argue much other than that. Differences exist, yet the overall message is the same: Jesus Christ saved us from sin, and it is up to us to accept this. These differences can easily be explained, yet it appears Con is more interested in defacing Christianity than attacking Catholicism. If Con would like to discuss the differences between Catholic theology and other denominations, that would be a topical argument.

Yet, as the judges ought to note, Con has attacked not Catholic theology, but what almost all Christians view to be immoral (such as masturbation or homosexual behavior). As such, Con's argument is off topic, and the only arguments he has given have been rebutted and found to be incorrect. I ask the judges to take this into account when deciding arguments.

If Con has any further points of contention, I would be more than willing to refute them.
Debate Round No. 1
scorepit

Con

The point is there is nothing wrong with homosexual behavior. Some people are just made that way by god, god made them that sexuality. Masturbation isn't a sin, it's natural. How is it bad? What is so bad about it? I don't think god cares what the hell you do to pleasure yourself. Yes you do worship statues, you bow down to them while in the church, don't deny that because I have been to a catholic church before multiple times. Also i was trying to add that the catholic denomination is too strict. It makes people worry too much about tradition and what is and isn't a sin. So not only with homosexuals but in general the catholic church hates the idea of sexual behavior other than having children. But finally i also have yet another point, catholics believe in saints. Not only do they bow down to saints, but they pray to them aswell. You never AND I MEAN NEVER should pray to anyone OTHER THAN GOD HIMSELF. That's disrespectful, you're supposed to respect saints but you shouldn't bow down or pray to them. Catholicism also contributes to strict parenting, which can ruin a persons life. So in conclusion become a protestant instead.
David_Debates

Pro

Rebuttal:

1) Catholics believe homosexuality is not a sin. Catholics believe homosexual behavior is a sin. I hope I have made this clear enough. With that, I'd like to address Con's two points:

Statement: "Nothing is wrong with homosexual behavior."
Response: Homosexual behavior robs the world of a future, as it is the only way to guarantee no children are conceived as a result of sexual intercourse. If Con is willing to accept that the primary purpose of sexual intercourse is to conceive children (as that is how the organs involved are designed), Con would also have to agree that to eliminate the primary purpose by engaging in homosexual behavior is wrong. As such, we must accept the statement that homosexual behavior is wrong. Here is the syllogism format of my argument.

TO BE ASSUMED: All things that are moral must follow their purpose.
1) All moral sexual intercourse has the purpose of conceiving children.
2) No homosexual intercourse results in conceiving children.
3) Therefore, No homosexual intercourse is moral sexual intercourse.

Statement: "God made them that sexuality, therefore it must be okay."
Response: There are many temptations in life. The fact that we have them in no way validates or moralizes us giving into them. For example, have you ever felt the temptation to lie? I'm sure it felt natural to lie. Does this, however, mean lying is moral? Not by any means. Something "feeling natural" doesn't mean it is moral because nature, as Catholics believe, is fallen. Nature contains many immoral things.

2) Masturbation

Statement: "Masturbation isn't bad because it is natural."
Response: See above. Natural things are not always good, and in many cases, are bad.

Statement: "I don't thing God cares what the hell you do to please yourself."
Response: First off, nice pun. But to refute this argument, we need only look at what is pleasing and determine if all things that are pleasing are good. If I can offer even one counterexample, this entire argument falls apart. Con, is it pleasing to drink? I'm sure it is. Is it pleasurable to drink copious amounts of alcohol until one's functions are impaired? I'm sure it can be. However, what is the result of this pleasurable action? Drunk driving, car accidents, perhaps even fatalities. Are these things which are the direct result of pleasurable action good things? Would God care about them?

If your answer was yes, your entire argument in this line is invalidated because you do not believe it is true yourself.

3) Prayer

Statement: "You bow down to statues while in church, therefore you worship them."
Response: How do you show respect, Con? Have you ever bowed to your elders, or saluted your officials? These are outward signs of respect towards others. It is in no way worshiping another over God. We show respect to others, reverence to God.

Statement: "Catholics pray to saints."
Response: Have you ever been involved in a prayer group? Have you ever asked anyone to pray for you or for a loved one? Have you ever prayed for someone else? This is what we call intercession. As Catholics, we believe that intercession does not end once you die, but it continues while in heaven. We believe that those in heaven can interceded by praying for us. We ask the Saints (a fancy way to say we are sure they are in Heaven) to pray for us. This does not violate any teaching of Jesus or the Church. To refute this statement, Catholics believe in intercession in Heaven as well as on earth, and as such, asking the Saints to pray for us is in no way in violation of any of Jesus' teachings.

4) Catholicism is too strict

Statement: "[Catholicism] makes people worry too much about what is and isn't a sin."
Response: Shouldn't we worry about sinning? This is what keeps us from sin. Attention and vigilance are powerful tools that the Catholic Church uses to help its congregation keep in accordance with God's plan. A life free from sin is impossible (Romans 3:23), but that doesn't mean we ought to avoid sin.

Statement: "Strict parenting can ruin someone's life."
Response: Lax parenting can ruin someone's life. I'd argue it is better to be involved in a strict regimen free from sin than be allowed to harm yourself with no reproductions. Which life is worse, a life devoid of sin or a life devoid of God?

In conclusion, I'd ask you to look on the whole, ask for clarification, and afterwards, the choice is up to you. You can choose Catholicism, Protestantism, or neither. Just make sure it is your free choice.
Debate Round No. 2
scorepit

Con

Sexual activity that doesn't have the intent of making children doesn't cause bad things to happen unlike drinking too much alcohol. Unless you do it wrong of course. The thing about what you keep saying is you make long paragraphs but you never quite get what i'm saying, think about this for a minute. Who would come to a conclusion that masturbation is a bad thing to do? Seriously, who logically would come up with the statement that homosexual behavior is bad and that masturbation is bad. Also i'm saying that catholics pray TO saints not PRAY ABOUT them. Also yes we should worry about sinning, but we should worry about what we can logically conclude is bad. Catholics view everything not in a rational logical way, but in a irrational nonsensical way. Also to add yet another topic to this debate i HIGHLY disagree with priests not being allowed to have children have sex or even masturbate. That is over the top. You know why so many priests raped little boys? Because you stripped them of EVERY OTHER MEAN OF PLEASURING THEMSELF so instead of pleasuring themself IN A NORMAL WAY they're doing it in a OBVIOUSLY WORSE WAY. How could you strip such things from a persons life, it's not right. Stripping people of such things also can lead to all that pent up need for love to come bursting out leading to sexual harassment or possibly rape. I can hardly go a week withought masturbating let alone not have any sexual activity unless it's to have kids for the rest of my life. Catholicism asks of you to do ridiculous things that me personally could never do.
David_Debates

Pro

Statement: "Sexual intercourse that has no intent of making children doesn't cause bad things to happen."
Response: Con refused to answer my question. I asked Con if he agreed that the primary purpose of sexual intercourse was to conceive children. Con has not only refused to answer my question, but he has attempted to divert my argument by arguing that there are no negatives to sexual activity that destroys the purpose of sexual activity. This is a completely unfounded argument.

Also, there are negatives to sexual activity that does not intend to conceive children. First, it can damage or destroy a relationship. Second, it can harm both participants by treating the other not as their partner, but as an object for their pleasure, as pleasure would become the new purpose for sexual activity, transforming it into a selfish, possessive activity rather than one that celebrates the creation of life.

Statement: "Who would come to the conclusion that masturbation is a bad thing to do?"
Response: I would. So would other Catholics. So would other Christians. So would many others. Do you want names?

Statement: "Who would logically come up with the statement that homosexual behavior is bad and that masturbation is bad."
Response: I would. So would other Catholics. Is this an argument or just you in disbelief that people disagree with you?

Statement: "I am saying Catholics pray TO saints not PRAY ABOUT them."
Response: I know that's what you're saying. You're just incorrect and misinformed. I clarified for you in R2.

Statement: "Also yes we should worry about sinning, but we should worry about what we can logically conclude is bad."
Response: I agree. Logically, masturbation and homosexual behavior pervert the purpose of sexual intercourse by shifting the purpose from conceiving children to gaining pleasure. This transforms a selfless act that is pleasurable by its very nature into a selfish act that treats others like objects, or in the case of masturbation, treating yourself like an object. If you want a logical syllogism, here it is:

TO BE ASSUMED: That the purpose of sexual intercourse is to conceive children (Con has dropped this contention) AND that all moral behavior is behavior that follows its purpose (Con has also dropped this contention).
1) All sexual behavior that cannot conceive children is behavior that is immoral (Assumption 1+2).
2) All homosexual behavior is behavior which cannot conceive children.
3) Therefore, all homosexual behavior is behavior that is immoral.

AAA-1 syllogism, valid

Is this logical enough for you, Con?

Statement: "Catholics view everything not in a rational logical way, but in an irrational nonsensical way."
Response: "All" is an universal affirmative statement. If there is at least one rational, logical Catholic in the span of mankind, this argument fails. I offer Saint Augustine, Thomas Aquinas, and over the course of this debate, myself. I would ask the judges if I have remained rational and logical in presenting my arguments. I would ask the judges to view the many works of Thomas Aquinas and Saint Augustine, such as "Confessions" and "Summa Theologica." If any of these contain rational, logical conclusions, Con's argument fails.

Statement: "Also to add another topic to this debate..."
Response: It's the final round, and to add new topics to the debate is in violation of conduct.

Statement: "Priests rape little boys because they are stripped of EVERY OTHER MEAN OF PLEASURING THEMSELF"
Response: No, they do so because they succumbed to temptation. It's the same reason any sin occurs. You hurt others because you succumbed to the temptation to do so. How do I prevent this? Not by letting you beat up animals when you get mad, but by enrolling you in anger management courses.

To allow others to use sin as a coping mechanism will not solve the issue, it will only enrage and worsen the condition.

Statement: "How could you strip such things from a person's life, it's not right."
Response: It's not right to be doing those things. And furthermore, I am not the one stripping those from the Priest's life, the Priest is entering a covenant between him and God. How am I responsible for him living a holy life? How am I the one stripping him of his "right to sin?" He is the one who made the decision to become a Priest.

Statement: "I could hardly go a week without masturbating."
Response: It's a struggle. Did you want life to be easy?

Statement: "Catholicism asks of you to do ridiculous things that me personally could never do."
Response: Should you give up, then? We all fall short. I'll admit, masturbation is one of the things that I struggle with on a day to day basis. It's really difficult to tell my body no. But every time I tell myself that I will abstain, that I will not give in to temptation, it is a victory. Every time I find myself face to face with my temptations and make the right choice, it is a victory.

God doesn't expect you to be perfect. He expects you to fight. He expects you to lose many times, but far more importantly, He will rejoice when you win.

So to you, Con, I ask you to continue fighting for what you know to be right. I ask you to challenge yourself the next time temptation comes, rather than succumbing to pleasure. It will be difficult, sure. But it will be worth it.

To conclude, I will summarize how I ask the judges to vote upon this debate. I ask the voters to consider conduct because Con brought up new topics in the final round. I would ask the voters to tie us on sources, as neither of us used any (they were unnecessary in this debate, as it was over ideals that required no physical evidence). I ask for arguments, as I carefully and specifically addressed all of Con's points, while Con dropped almost all my contentions. Finally, I ask that spelling and grammar be left up to you, as while Con's arguments are littered with typos and grammatical irregularities, I personally could understand his arguments to a reasonable degree, yet I am unsure as to how they came across to a non-participant in this debate.

Thank you for reading this debate, and I thank Con for the debate. I wish the best of luck to him in future debates.
Debate Round No. 3
4 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Posted by Truth-Over-Emotion 2 years ago
Truth-Over-Emotion
Btw, what Catholic church did you go to? There's no bowing to statues involved.

And it's not about pleasuring yourself, it's about being addicted. That's a really grey area, so do some research before jumping to conclusions (for both sides).

We DON'T pray/worship/"bow down" to Saints. We ask them to pray for us and we respect them for their good deeds.

If you think we're strict, try being a Jehovah's Witness or a Mormon. Yeah, we have rules, but the church really isn't that strict on following them (unless you are the 20% of crazy radical Catholics).

And most people don't follow the Theology of The Body (having children thing) because that was more of a cultural thing than a religious thing.

Who hurt you, honey? You're really bitter. No, I don't believe in everything that Catholicism teaches (99% of people don't when they actually learn about it), but that's the fault of the people who follow it, not the religion itself (just like Islam).
Posted by Truth-Over-Emotion 2 years ago
Truth-Over-Emotion
I agree with Con's first point (though being gay itself isn't a sin), but everything else is wrong. This should turn out to be quite an interesting debate, so I'll leave a comment to keep up with this debate.
Posted by bfritts5 2 years ago
bfritts5
I go to a catholic high school so I can give you some arguments even though I, myself, am not a catholic.

-God did not make people gay. He made people, and gave them free will.
- Thats like saying God made the Florida shooter a killer. -> no he CHOSE to do that
-They DO NOT worship statues. They use them as reminders. They can pray to God, but use intercessions of these saints.
Posted by bfritts5 2 years ago
bfritts5
I go to a catholic high school so I can give you some arguments even though I, myself, am not a catholic.

-God did not make people gay. He made people, and gave them free will.
- Thats like saying God made the Florida shooter a killer. -> no he CHOSE to do that
-They DO NOT worship statues. They use them as reminders. They can pray to God, but use intercessions of these saints.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by dsjpk5 2 years ago
dsjpk5
scorepitDavid_DebatesTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
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Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: In my opinion, the debate hinged on the question of sexual intercourse. Con argued that there's nothing wrong with sex (regardless of the intended end), but I found Pro's rebuttal more compelling, especially when he said, "Also, there are negatives to sexual activity that does not intend to conceive children. First, it can damage or destroy a relationship. Second, it can harm both participants by treating the other not as their partner, but as an object for their pleasure, as pleasure would become the new purpose for sexual activity, transforming it into a selfish, possessive activity rather than one that celebrates the creation of life."

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