The Instigator
hutch976
Pro (for)
The Contender
Rjupudi18
Con (against)

Catholics are correct when it comes to the Virgin Mary

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Voting Style: Open Point System: Select Winner
Started: 3/6/2017 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Debating Period
Viewed: 1,567 times Debate No: 100600
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (44)
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hutch976

Pro

Please note, that this debate is intended to be within the context of Christianity. Opponents will argue for or against Mary (Wife Joseph and Mother of Jesus as found in Christian teachings, traditions, and sacred scripture) having a high importance in the belief system.

I am not requiring one to be Christian, or even religious. If you do take up the "con" position, please note I will be using proof texts, arguments, syllogisms, historical arguments, etc. that come from Christian (especially Catholic) sources. We are pretty much going to have to agree that the Christian worldview is correct and true, or else we will just be talking at each other....or the debate will spill over into other topics (e.g. Does God exist? Is Jesus God? and so on).

I only make that disclaimer, because I've had experiences on this site where someone will just hijack the debate into a completely different topic. But hey, can't stop you from doing what you're doing to do. This is simply a request.

4 Rounds. My position: The Catholic Church teaches (and correctly so) that Mary is:

1. The Mother of the second person in the Holy Trinity
2. Mediatrix and co-redemptor with Christ
3. Worthy or Christian veneration

Con may take Round 1 to start their argument, or simply accept. Shooter's preference.

Thanks, and good luck.
Rjupudi18

Con

I thank Pro for instigating this debate. I hope to present my case as to why I believe the Catholic Church DOES NOT accurately represent Mary as written in the Holy Scriptures. I hope this debate will be a benefit to both of us as well as the viewers.

I will begin by rebutting the 3 points made by Pro:
1. "The Mother of the second person in the Holy Trinity"
This is only partially true. Mary was the mother of Jesus Christ while He was on 🌏. She was His earthly mother and took care of Jesus like any mother would. However, Jesus has existed though eternity and being that He is God, we know God has no mother. Therefore, Mary is the mother of the human side of Jesus while He was on earth and Joseph is His father but not His divine nature. But Scripture tells us they only acted as His earthy parents but His true Father was God. When Jesus was "lost" and His parents were looking for Him, He rebuked them by asking if they didn't know He had to be in His Father's house (Luke 2:49).
http://biblehub.com...

2. "Mediatrix and co-redeemer with Christ"
Yet another Catholic invention. Nowhere in the Holy Bible do we ever read that Mary can save people or redeem them from sin. Luke 1:46-47 reads, "46 And Mary said: "My soul glorifies the Lord and my spirit rejoices in God MY SAVIOR" Mary proclaims God is her Savior. How can we say Mary can save people when she herself needs a saviour? https://www.biblegateway.com...
Also, Scripture tells us that there is only mediation between us and God. "For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus" (1 Timothy 2:5).
https://www.biblegateway.com...
The Bible is very clear that Christ alone is our mediator and redeemer.

3. I agree. We should respect Mary as a saint and servant of God. We should also respect Abraham, Moses, David, John the Baptist and Paul and all the other prophets and apostles. There is no need for special treatment for Mary. I respect Mary as I respect all the other patriarchs of the Bible but as a Christian, I would deem it blasphemy to equate her with Christ. As a Bible-believing Christian, I think there is nothing wrong with reverence for saints but only One Being is worthy of praise and worship. That is God our Lord and Saviour.

Good luck to Pro for the next round.
Debate Round No. 1
hutch976

Pro

Mary is the Mother of God:

My opponent is actually advocating the position of a 5th century heresy known as "Nestorianism". He claims that Mary was merely the mother of Christ"s "human" nature. This is to deny the person of Jesus Christ, a historical person who walked the Earth, as being both fully human and fully divine. The claim that Mary did not give birth to the unified person of Jesus Christ asserts the separation of Christ"s human nature from his divine nature. This creates two separate and distinct persons. One of those persons being divine and the other human. This is a Christological heresy.

In fact, John Calvin and Martin Luther both supported the divine Maternity of Mary. Denying that Mary is the mother of Jesus (who was fully a human person and fully God), places doubts and theological problems on Jesus" divinity, and therefore the whole concept of Christianity.

Mary IS the Mother of God. She was the Mother of Jesus when He was conceived in her womb, when He was carried and nurtured in her womb, and she was the mother of Jesus throughout his whole life on earth. She was given the title of "Blessed", "Highly Favored", and it is through her Fiat (her, "Let It be done unto me according to your will), her obedience and willingness to accept this"that we have salvation in this world, through her Son Jesus Christ, who is God! (Except according to my opponent, He is not God whenever it is convenient).

Here is the big point my opponent is missing in his logic:
Mary is the Mother of God in the sense that she carried in her womb a divine person"Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is God "in the flesh" (2 John 7, John 1:14). A woman is someone"s mother if she carried the person in her womb, or if she was the woman contributing half of his genetic matter or both. Mary did both of these; she not only carried Jesus in her womb but also supplied ALL genetic material for his earthly body. Joseph did not.
That last point quickly defeats my opponents citation of Jesus being lost in the temple and being in his Father"s house. For God truly was Jesus" father, and Joseph truly was not. Additionally, Jesus can obtain his lineage to the House of David through Mary and not Joseph. Mary is Christ"s mother, the logical syllogism that follows is that she is also the Mother of God:

Mary is the Mother of Jesus
Jesus is God
Mary is the Mother of God

I would love for my opponent to refute that. Please, tell us all at what point on Earth that Jesus was not God and Mary was not His mother? Even in the womb, Elizabeth refers to Mary as "the mother of my LORD" (Luke 1:43). Elizabeth is recognizing that the person inside Mary"s womb is GOD.

One cannot escape this logical syllogism. Only recently have Protestants and Fundamentalists refuted this; for as mentioned earlier even Luther and Calvin supported her divine maternity. The reason for this divergence is because Protestantism brought on thousands of different interpretations of Scripture and Doctrine, which continues to increase today. This goes against Christ establishing ONE Church (and not giving His disciples a Bible, which came hundreds of years later".by the Bishops of the Catholic Church) and against the Holy Spirit through Paul urging that "there be no divisions among you" (1 COR 1:10). Apostolic Tradition and Teaching authority (see Matthew 16:18, Matthew 18:17) quells divisions coming from endless "infallible" interpretations of Scripture that Protestants have. But this is not a debate about Sola Scriptura and Church authority, so moving on.

This is not new, by the way, and I suggest my opponent read more carefully into his Christian heritage. This is not only in reference to the position of the early Protestant Reformers, but also of our early Church Fathers. Regarding the Nestorian heresy, even as early as 189 AD we have quotes from the early Christians regarding Mary"s divine maternity:

"The Virgin Mary, being obedient to his word, received from an angel the glad tidings that she would bear God" " St. Irenaeus (Against Heresies, 5:19:1)

And finally from the Early Fathers I will cite Cyril of Alexandria:R32;R32;

"I have been amazed that some are utterly in doubt as to whether or not the holy Virgin is able to be called the Mother of God. For if our Lord Jesus Christ is God, how should the holy Virgin who bore him not be the Mother of God?" (Letter to the Monks of Egypt"1 [A.D. 427])."R32;R32;"This expression, however, "the Word was made flesh" [John 1:14], can mean nothing else but that he partook of flesh and blood like to us; he made our body his own, and came forth man from a woman, not casting off his existence as God, or his generation of God the Father, but even in taking to himself flesh remaining what he was. This the declaration of the correct faith proclaims everywhere. This was the sentiment of the holy Fathers; therefore they ventured to call the holy Virgin "the Mother of God," not as if the nature of the Word or his divinity had its beginning from the holy Virgin, but because of her was born that holy body with a rational soul, to which the Word, being personally united, is said to be born according to the flesh" (First Letter to Nestorius"[A.D. 430])."R32;R32;"And since the holy Virgin corporeally brought forth God made one with flesh according to nature, for this reason we also call her Mother of God, not as if the nature of the Word had the beginning of its existence from the flesh" (Third Letter to Nestorius"[A.D. 430])."R32;R32;"If anyone will not confess that the Emmanuel is very God, and that therefore the holy Virgin is the Mother of God, inasmuch as in the flesh she bore the Word of God made flesh [John 1:14]: let him be anathema"

(The majority of this point was derived from the following website, in addition to the citations of the Early Church father"s quotations: https://www.catholic.com...)

Here is a quick quote from Luther:

On the newborn Jesus: "They must have marveled that this Child was the Son of God. He was also a real human being. Those who say that Mary was not a real mother lose all the joy. He was a true Baby, with flesh, blood, hands and legs. He slept, cried, and did everything else that a baby does only without sin."
^http://www.christianitytoday.com...

Additional Citations and Suggested Reading for this argument:

http://www.newadvent.org... - For more on the Nestorian Heresy

Second Point:

First of all, the "Trinity" is "an invention" of the Catholic Church, either. It is not explicitly mentioned nor explicitly talked about in Scripture. We have the doctrine of the Trinity thanks to Christ's Church he established, and this doctrine was cemented before there even was a Bible. Do you want to deny the Trinity? Or would you rather thank Catholic Theologians and Bishops for acting on the Holy Spirit's will and guidance?

In short (due to character limit), Mary brought Christ into the world through her "Fiat" (her willingness and obedience, "Let it be done unto me according to your will"). She is not a rival to Christ, but one of the major ways in which God chooses to administer His graces into the world. Just like how you can preach the Gospel and "save someone" and by virtue "save yourself" (1 COR 9:22, for example). Are we neglecting Christ by being a channel for His peace and grace? No. It does not logically follow.

Third point:

Jesus commands us to keep all the commandments (Matthew 19:17, John 14:15), and the Fourth Commandment is to Honor Your Mother and Your Father (Exodus 20). Jesus is our brother (Hebrews 2:11), and Mary is His Mother. Therefore, Mary is our Spiritual Mother.
You admit she is a saint (which means she is in heaven). How do you know this, it is not in Scripture? Of course that is rhetorical. I know how you know it brother. You know it in your heart. Scripture says that "all generations shall call {her} blessed!".
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Debate Round No. 2
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Debate Round No. 3
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Debate Round No. 4
44 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 21 through 30 records.
Posted by FollowerofChrist1955 3 years ago
FollowerofChrist1955
Hebrews 5:12-14
By now you should have been teachers, but once again you need to be taught the simplest things about what God has said. You need milk instead of solid food. 13 People who live on milk are like babies who don't really know what is right. 14 Solid food is for mature people who have been trained to know right from wrong.
Posted by hutch976 3 years ago
hutch976
So once again, no real comment on my questions or arguments towards you. Just more ad hominem. We've seen you incorrectly state Catholic belief. You are only solidifying my Catholic faith more, by acting so irrationally and mistakenly.
Posted by FollowerofChrist1955 3 years ago
FollowerofChrist1955
You follow the blind sayings of followers long since past, and require others to do so as well, violating scripture which TELL you that you shall be taught of God and no other, and do so willfully, that's FIVE AREAS of your failures.

Essentially I'm surprised you haven't discover your blindness ere now. You have FAILED in your first Love as was directed to the Seven churches. Your so busy in the business of the King that you have FORGOTTEN your King. Repent, and turn back to your first Love. As stated to the seven churches. You have become a Denomination, nothing more. You have forsaken the word of God. As it is written

Matthew 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commands of men.

Isaiah 29:13
Then the Lord said" because this people draw near with their words And honor Me with their lip service, but they remove their hearts far from Me, And they reverence for Me consists of tradition learned by rote.

Anyone who is able to read KNOWS THIS IS the Catholic Church. Cease being Catholic, and return to being a Child of God. That choice must be yours. Are you saved yes ..... are you useless to the Kingdom of God? ABSOLUTELY!
Posted by hutch976 3 years ago
hutch976
So since you've "lied" about the Catholic doctrine regarding Priests being able to have wives...does that mean there's no truth in you? Does your argument against me also condemn you?
Posted by hutch976 3 years ago
hutch976
What are these external books? The ones Luther removed 1100 years after God gave you the finalized Bible through his Church? Also, please try to keep your responses in one text, so we can communicate more efficiently.

I have a feeling you do not really read what I am saying anyways though.
Posted by hutch976 3 years ago
hutch976
It's not forbidden for priests to marry in the Catholic Church. Priests do get married in the Eastern Rite.

Anything else you want to embarrass yourself on?
Posted by FollowerofChrist1955 3 years ago
FollowerofChrist1955
You rely on external books to establish your faith, outright DENYING the inerrant word of God ... that's Four areas of your failings
Posted by FollowerofChrist1955 3 years ago
FollowerofChrist1955
You profess it wrong for Priest to marry and yet PETER was married, you worship traditions not God, that's three areas you fail in
Posted by hutch976 3 years ago
hutch976
Why don't you tell me specifically what those lies are?

Did Christ not say, "Not everyone who says to me, "Lord Lord" shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but only one who does THE WILL of my Father."? Did He not say that? Am I telling you a lie, when I cite that verse? Was I telling a lie when I cited the other verses?

Was I telling a lie when I said your Bible has 7 less books than mine, because Protestants took them out, all while incoherently claiming Sola Scriptura?

Was I telling a lie when I said Christ established a Church, which HE gave authority to settle matters?

I only ask because you are basically calling me a liar, sir, but you have yet to refute any of those points. You instead resort to ad hominem....like a small child.

Your profile says you are in your sixties, but you are acting like a middle schooler in your debating skills, sir.
Posted by FollowerofChrist1955 3 years ago
FollowerofChrist1955
You venerate idols, of bone and metals, another direct violation of God that's two
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