The Instigator
JimBobJimmy
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
Thoht
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points

Common Sense (Gun Control)

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 11/17/2018 Category: Politics
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,187 times Debate No: 119033
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (10)
Votes (0)

 

JimBobJimmy

Con

I believe that we have almost perfect gun laws here in America.
Thoht

Pro

Happy to think with you tonight.

My argument will be along the lines of:

1. Mentally challenged people, Violent criminals, And people with disturbed pasts are permitted to legally buy guns.

The common argument Pro-gun people will make when a school shooting occurs is "they were mentally disturbed" et cetera. One cannot simultaneously be against common sense gun control and hold the position that mentally disturbed people shouldn't have access to guns.

Therefore, A critical contradiction exists in the argument against common sense gun control.

May your thoughts be clear,

-Thoht
Debate Round No. 1
JimBobJimmy

Con

This is just a quick run down.

I'm not sure where you live, But where I live people with past violent crimes in their history are not allowed to buy/own firearms. I do believe that people can be against common sense gun control while simultaneously not wanting mentally disturbed people to own firearms. Though you have to also realize that some shooter's mental state is only noticed after an incident.

~100, 000 people are murdered by firearms a year in America. Though, Over 2. 1 million people are saved by them.

Mass shootings - Though mass shootings are almost becoming common recently, More people die from cars a year than mass shootings.

Guns in general - 20 years ago, You could see people with guns in the back seat of their truck. Were there any mass shootings/major problems with them then? No, That's because guns are thermally activated. Someone has to have the guts/will/ignorance to pull the trigger. It's not the gun's fault, It's the user's. I believe we should ban criminals, Wait, We basically do.

Though I'm not completely sure where you stand, I will quickly break down why I don't believe in Common Sense since I'm really tired.

1. It would ban some hunting rifles as well. Many states allow AR-15's and "high capacity rifles" to hunt. The most common argument that I've heard is that, "If you can't use it to hunt, You don't need it, " I understand that there are Common Sense supporters that agree with pistols for self defense. But you also have to think about the other side. Would you rather have a pistol or rifle to defend your home/self/others with?

2. The people - I believe that we should attempt to get people to start helping those who have mental problems. Though I know there will be mistakes here and there, Like Nick Cruz, Where the FBI failed to check his record correctly. These recent generations are the problems here. You didn't really hear a lot about school shootings in the 1900's. Right? That's because they were disciplined and had a harder life. Plus, Kids are making kids do this. Most of the time, The mental illness is caused by bullying. There is a very easy solution here. Get schools and parents to do more about the bad kids, So they don't make the good ones do something bad.

I am only doing two reasons here.

And to clarify, I do believe that we need a small amount of more laws. But, Only ones that help prohibit violent people, Mentally distressed people, Etc. From having firearms of any kind.
Thoht

Pro

I posted an R2 argument and it was deleted 20hrs after I posted it. How strange.

I will be more brief than I was before.

In my view, Your final statement has conceded the debate to me. That is the only point I previously brought up and you accepted it. This should be noted by our readers, But I will expand to multiple points to see if there is any common sense gun control that you don't like.

You have a strange idea of what "Common Sense" gun control is. Common sense refers to the fact that the forms of gun control it suggests are not hotly contested by the majority of the public. IE about 80% of the population when asked are FOR these things. One or two of these are a bit more contested than that, But exceptions can be made for these to mostly accept as well. The only ones who do not accept common sense gun control are extreme constitutional literalists who believe 'shall not be infringed' means we cannot make any laws surrounding guns at all.

An AR Ban is not part of common sense gun control. It is on the fringe, It is not comfortably inside it, In my view. Arguments can be made for it, But if that is the only thing you're against then you aren't Con Common Sense Gun Control and you've lost the debate before you've started.

1. Common Sense Gun Control Policies.

1a. Strengthening Background Checks.

If you look up where most mass shooters get their weapons, (1) you will notice a trend for the majority of them. They get their guns despite histories of violence, Psychiatric admittance, Problems in the military, Violent crime, Et cetera. Some are prohibited some kinds of guns but allowed to use others. Strengthening background checks consists largely of holding the FBI, Psychiatrists, The military, Judges, Et cetera to a higher standard of reporting these negatives on people's record so they can be prevented from getting guns.

You have already said you agree to this.

1b. Ending Private Sales/Gun Show Loopholes

In many states, Private sellers don't have to run background checks. If you agree with background checks to screen for crimes et cetera listed above, You should also be for this.

1c. Licenses/Permits

A small step above background checks. This may require training with the weaponry before purchase, But not necessarily. We require licenses to operate dangerous vehicles, Additional tests for larger vehicles, Et cetera. Requiring training prior to allowing people to purchase guns is the same. This could be a lifetime certification that needs no renewal, And the 2nd gun you go to purchase would not require licensing. This has been shown to reduce crime directly with no corresponding increase in crime via other weaponry. (2) When these laws are lifted, It also shows crime increases afterwards. (2) These are not insignificant margins, And it is a fairly insignificant barrier to entry.

1d. 24-72 Hour Waiting Periods

This is mostly to stop spur of the moment suicides as well as crimes of passion. A cooldown period. An exception could be made that if someone already owns a gun they are exempt from the waiting period, Because it would follow that this would not stop them if they already have a gun.

1e. Requiring Gun Safes for Households with Children

Many shooting 'accidents' would be easily preventable if adults locked away their guns properly in households with children. CPS already notes many dangerous things about the household that constitutes a dangerous environment. Having legal grounds to prosecute parents whose children gain access to their weaponry should absolutely be mandatory. There are several mass shootings that have happened that would have been potentially prevented because of this.

2. The claim that guns save 2. 1m people a year. I'm going to need a source for this. If this includes cops, Then it is an irrelevant point. Cops will not be prevented from having access to guns. Cops with backgrounds of mental instability should not be cops. They can be replaced.

3. AR Ban. Hunting Rifles?

As I said prior, AR bans are not under the umbrella of 'common sense. ' (3) Some fringe elements of people suggest banning all guns. This may be common sense to them, But it is not something the majority believes in as the majority does common sense reform. Hunting rifle have never been discussed outside of a total ban. "Gun Control" does not necessarily mean "Gun Elimination. " Either way, Most people accept hunters as an exception to these kind of things. Guns are a requirement for safety for many.

To conclude,

As my profile says, I'm Pro-Gun. I believe guns are mandatory to protect civilians from invasion of other countries, To protect themselves when the police cannot, To protect themselves from government, And for fun. Most freedoms, However, Come with a cost to life to pay for those freedoms. There are a lot of statistics people use to say guns should be eliminated that are fraudulent, Or flawed. I do not make those points.

I make the point that these simple steps that pose no extreme difficulty to law abiding citizens can save a lot more innocent lives and are well worth the cost of 1. Waiting a few days before getting your first gun. 2. Taking a class on guns that would probably be tons of fun and save you money via better information. 3. Keeping your guns locked up away from your kids.

None of these are particularly controversial points.

If you wish to continue the debate, You have to have a problem with 1b-1e. You've already accepted 1a. Lets say for argument's sake that I have conceded an AR ban to you, Although I have stated why I don't put that under 'common sense' gun law.

So now it is on you. What between 1b and 1e do you disagree with? If you accept 1a-1e or the majority of those, You are not con common sense gun control.

Sources in comments (to try and make sure this one doesn't get deleted as well)

May your thoughts be clear,

-Thoht
Debate Round No. 2
JimBobJimmy

Con

JimBobJimmy forfeited this round.
Thoht

Pro

Seems my opponent has acknowledged mentally disabled, Unstable people, And criminals should not have weaponry.

May your thoughts be clear,

-Thoht
Debate Round No. 3
10 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Thoht 3 years ago
Thoht
Timmy, Common sense gun control doesn't ban guns.

You would also never use the same argument for anything else.

"Abortions should be allowed cuz people will still get them anyway. "

"Drugs should all be allowed cuz people will still get them anyway"

"Murder should be allowed cuz people will still do it anyway. "

The point of gun control is not that it will magically prevent all shootings from occuring. The point is that they will be reduced. It provides an extra hurdle. At the very least I can say that illegally purchased weapons cost more, Transactions are harder to set up, And police can set stings for them. Your point is asinine.

May your thoughts be clear,

-Thoht
Posted by timmyjames 3 years ago
timmyjames
It will take more than a law to stop criminals from getting their hands on guns. After all, That's what makes a criminal a criminal. They BREAK the law.
Posted by timmyjames 3 years ago
timmyjames
It will take more than a law to stop criminals from getting their hands on guns. After all, That's what makes a criminal a criminal. They BREAK the law.
Posted by timmyjames 3 years ago
timmyjames
guns should be allowed. I don't even know why this is a debate.
Posted by backwardseden 3 years ago
backwardseden
Where are his other resources? He claims one of his RD's got deleted in which I do buy. This happens to everybody.

"The people - I believe that we should attempt to get people to start helping those who have mental problems. " Fine! Get rid of all guns as guns are a mental health problem. Obviously Con does not in any way know or understand this.
* Journal of American Medicine 6/30/16
"And, As statistics show, The more guns that are purchased, The less safe we all are. Especially gun purchasers, Who are 80% more likely to be wounded by their own gun than by anyone else"s. "
Continuing. . .
"Especially when 3D printers are capable of creating lethal guns in just minutes, Without a waiting period or even the involvement of a gun manufacturer. "

60 minutes also did an article on guns and damn it I cannot find it nor do I remember the date it was on the air. However, It did bring in some very common sense reasoning ideals that I will never forget. . . "How can anyone identify those who are mentally ill of the mentally ill don't know that they are mentally ill? " continuing (I don't remember the exact wording here) "Those that are in their teens usually 15 - 18, They don't get spots in a hospital or psych wards, They are usually not able to stay for more than a week simply because there isn't enough room for them to stay any longer. More and more people their ages come on in and they are improperly diagnosed because of the shortage of space for the rooms that they are allowed to stay. Thus these people who really do have problems are put right back on the streets with no help to follow them. " Yeah that's sad but true. Continuing "Then those that are diagnosed, How many of them are 'properly' diagnosed? Then to make matters worse, Once they are diagnosed, If diagnosed with a psychotic behavior, How can we track these people down to do followups on them? We after all cannot put ankle bracelets, And expect to keep them working for each and every person! "
Posted by backwardseden 3 years ago
backwardseden
@ -jimBobJimmy - "100, 000 people are murdered by firearms a year in America. Though, Over 2. 1 million people are saved by them. " Really? According to what imbecile? You? How would you know? What grade of a nun's pep rally boogie woogie He-Ma and She-Ra "I am the pewra dumping rounds did yah happen to come up with that invented excuse and flat out lie?

"More people die from cars a year than mass shootings. " What an absolutely posivivly stupid and ignorantly cupid's love song howling at a sewer lap dance which is obviously only meant for Richard Nixon followers. Cars, Well at least here in this country are rarely, Well let's put it this way, Are NOT generally used as weapons, And its not even close, To the usage and killings/ murders in comparison as top what guns are. The point con is trying to make is as useless as a blown into a vomited kleenex tissue saved for a year because he likes to save these things to lay upon because they provide him with comfy support and purpose.

" AR Ban. Hunting Rifles? " Oh ab-ao-lu-te-ly. What gives man the right to go ut and murder innocent animals especially for no reason? If you want to put food on the table for you and your family, Great, Then you are ---even--- with the animal. No shotguns. No nothing. You DO NOT put yourself containing all the power with the animal of none. It is the exact same, No difference as you being the daddy and putting your you know what inside of your daughter, Age 4, While punching her in the face. That specific animal has the right to live - just as much as we do.

"I will quickly break down why I don't believe in Common Sense" So Con doesn't believe in much of anything. Not even his scared up tissue rolly polly cookie powder dust made from a scraped off yeast infection ressurection of a bee sting.

"How they got their guns" = Nope to "100, 000 people are murdered by firearms a year in America. "Though, Over 2. 1 million people are saved by them. " Not even close.
Posted by Thoht 3 years ago
Thoht
R2 Sources (It's not lettng me post urls I tried for too long)

1 NY times 2015 "How they got their guns"
2 jhsph edu article June 11 2015 'Connecticut Handgun Licensing Law Associated With 40 Percent Drop in Gun Homicides'
3 Washington Post 2015 article "3 common sense gun policies that would save lives"
4 not cited in debate but some information used in gun show loophole bit. Wikipedia gun show loophole. Info on private sellers.
Posted by Thoht 3 years ago
Thoht
Some weird math and assumptions involved, More than likely.
Posted by McSloth 3 years ago
McSloth
You*
Posted by McSloth 3 years ago
McSloth
Where are the getting that number from? About 2. 1 million people being saved by guns each year?
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