The Instigator
FollowerofChrist1955
Pro (for)
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The Contender
ChaelD
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

Denominations ARE the identity of 1Timothy 4:1

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 3/20/2018 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,635 times Debate No: 111177
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FollowerofChrist1955

Pro

1 Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

RULES:
1. 1st round acceptance?
2. Biblical argument PROVING Denominations ARE IDENTIFIED as 1 Timothy 4:1 or Biblical argument proving they are "NOT"
3. Rebuttals.
4. Should BE Bible knowledgeable
5. Should at least BE able to give account for Reason for Belief, beyond mere opinion(s)
6. Obviously Should BELONG to a denomination. And Believe and be able to BACK their belief, beyond hearsay.

Any Denominational (c)hristian is acceptable.
ChaelD

Con

Truth be told, there ARE some denominations that "abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits...", but to say that a denomination is a manifestation of 1 Timothy 4:1 is to throw a whole lot of true believers into the general mixing pot of the world. I am an Evangelical Christian who goes to a community church. I believe that in order for someone to be a Christian they must believe in Jesus as God's Son wholeheartedly ("If you believe with all your heart, you may [be baptized]. The eunuch answered, 'I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.'"Acts 8:37 NIV ), regardless of a denomination. There are two types of Christian Beliefs: the Disputable and the Undisputable. There are things set in stone that each and every born again Christian believes, like "Jesus Christ is the Son of God." On the other hand, there are values that need to be set aside for the sake of unity, like whether the Pope is the head of the Church or whether each person is responsible for himself. Like Christian Singer Mandisa says in her new song, "We're more beautiful when we come together." When we squabble about these small issues (which are by no means "abandoning the faith"), it gives the Lost a picture of us that is full of fighting over moot topics. If Catholic chooses to believe that the Pope is the closest man to God, I merely agree to disagree, and we unite on our common ground so we can do the most important thing of all: bring the unsaved to Christ.
Debate Round No. 1
FollowerofChrist1955

Pro

Denominations ARE the identity of 1Timothy 4:1

Greetings and Welcome … I shall address your comments at the end, that the debate may begin promptly!

THE CHARGE 1 Timothy 4:1-2

4 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

2 Timothy 4:3

For the time will come when men will not tolerate sound doctrine, but with itching ears they will gather around themselves teachers to suit their own desires.

DIRECT EVIDENCE AGAINST The Churches of Today- God unsanctioned use of external texts and materials that DIRECTLY VIOLATES scripture by presuming to INTERPRET and DEFINE Holy Scripture, leading to the confusion of the laity, causing massive departure from the faith teaching things NOT TAUGHT in the Holy Word!

DIRECT EVIDENCE AGAINST The Churches of Today- Stealing FROM GOD by withholding a TENTH for TITHES

DIRECT EVIDENCE AGAINST The Churches of today- More than 2 denominations, Judaism and The WAY

DIRECT EVIDENCE AGAINST The Churches of Today- NO NAMED IDENTITY or denomination exists in scripture.

DIRECT EVIDENCE AGAINST The Churches of Today- 33,000 or 43,000 worship differences and traditions. ALL HUMAN MADE, without direct authority of Scripture.

DIRECT EVIDENCE AGAINST The Churches of Today- ACCUSATIONS between the denominations inferring KNOWLEDGE that OTHER denominations are not Christians because they do not follow their own personal denominations beliefs.

DIRECT EVIDENCE AGAINST The Churches of Today- ACCUSATION that THERE IS NO TRINITY!

DIRECT EVIDENCE AGAINST The Churches of today- That THEY CAN PERSONALLY INTERPRET SCRIPTURE- even though it is EXPRESSLY STATED within scripture that NONE of the scripture (prophecy) is of PERSONAL INTERPRETATION OF THE PROPHET!

DIRECT EVIDENCE AGAINST The Churches of Today- MASSIVE BIBLICAL ILLITERACY IN EVERY DENOMINATION. Additional evidence may be perused on this BOARDS as 95 to 98 percent of professing Believers ON this debate board … are INCAPABLE of using Scripture, indeed demonstrating only a rudimentary beginning, babe in Christ knowledge, spreading hypocrisy and outright lies of denominations, rather than using scriptures at all?

Direct EVIDENCE AGAINST The Churches of Today- To the last man EXCLUSIVELY USES THE TERM- “I BELIEVE” and NOT GOD STATES! Fulfilling the prophecy of Paul-

Hebrews 5:11We have much to say about this, but it is hard to explain, because you are dull of hearing. 12Although by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to reteach you the basic principles of God’s word. You need milk, not solid food! 13Everyone who lives on milk is still an infant, inexperienced in the message of righteousness.…

Scriptures UNDER DIRECT VIOLATION BY THE CHURCHES OF TODAY;

Violation- 2 Timothy 1:13 Hold on to the pattern of sound teaching you have heard from me, with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus

Violation- 2 Timothy3:13 while evil men and imposters go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. 14 But as for you, continue in the things you have learned and firmly believed, since you know from whom you learned them. 15From infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.…

Titus 1:9 He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it was taught, so that by sound teaching he will be able to encourage others and refute those who contradict this message.

Violation- 2 Timothy 2:2 And the things that you have heard me say among many witnesses, entrust these to faithful men who will be qualified to teach others as well.

Violation- Romans 6:17 But thanks be to God that, though you once were slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were committed.

Violation- Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because you have rejected knowledge, I will also reject you, that you shall be no priest to me: because you have forgotten the law of your God, I will also forget your children.

Violation- Mark 7:13 thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that."

Malachi 3:8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.

Violation- Proverbs 30:6, Isaiah 55:8, Matthew 22:29, Timothy 3:16

Violation: 2 Peter 2:20-21 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.”

Violation Mark 16:15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.

Violation- Isaiah 54:13 "All your sons will be taught of the LORD; And the well-being of your sons will be great.

Violation- John 6:45 , 1 John 2:27, 1 Thessalonians 4:9 , Philippians 3:15

Violation- Malachi 2:7 For the priest's lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his mouth: for he is the messenger of the LORD of hosts.

Violation- Isaiah 65:2 All day long I have held out my hands to an obstinate people, who walk in ways not good, pursuing their own imaginations--

Violation-Psalm 81:11 "But My people did not listen to My voice, And Israel did not obey Me.

Violation-Isaiah 1:2 Listen, O heavens, and hear, O earth; For the LORD speaks, "Sons I have reared and brought up, But they have revolted against Me.

Violation- Isaiah 30:9 For this is a rebellious people, false sons, Sons who refuse to listen To the instruction of the LORD;

Violation Deuteronomy 4:2,Violation- Deuteronomy 12:32,Violation-Psalm 36:4,

Undeniable evidence of Guilt. Existence of MORE than a SINGLE Christian entity Governed by God Spirit ALONE!

Evidence … in the 1st Century there was Judaism, and The WAY’’

Today?

https://theway21stcentury.wordpress.com...

God is disappointed in US if there were 3. See how this is true? Only one WAY? Gods WAY? The other is Judaism, there IS NO disputing this! So beyond 2, we have BETRAYED the Savior of the World, and Creator of the universe. IF you cannot see this VEEEEERY simple truth, well? SIGH, your REALLY in trouble! No matter, it is what it is.

Con states "Truth be told, there ARE some denominations that "abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits...", but to say that a denomination is a manifestation of 1 Timothy 4:1 is to throw a whole lot of true believers into the general mixing pot of the world.”

Pro response "How MANY Denominations ARE IN THE SCRIPTURE BY NAME?"

Proof … your WRONG at the onset! ALL denominations are contrary to The Holy Word as NONE are sanctioned by God Himself. And to infer in the absence of specific scripture IS adding to the WORD, whether YOU believe it or not! But you know, That IS the PROBLEM isn’t it? To MUCH of US in religion and not enough GOD! Be honest, you haven’t DIED to yourself, even YOU still believe only what YOU want to? Your “NOT” a disciple? Not my charge- CHRIST CHARGE” Neither are ALL the denominations … know HOW to tell?

EASY-43,000 reasons or 33,000 whichever ... see?

Scripture STATES: Matthew 16:24

Then Jesus said to his disciples, "Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me.

Mark 8:34

Then he called the crowd to him along with his disciples and said: "Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me.

Luke 9:23

Then Jesus said to all of them, "If anyone would come after Me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow Me.

Luke 14:27

And whoever does not carry his cross and follow Me cannot be My disciple.

SEE? NOT His Disciple, from the Man Himself. Take it up with HIM? See to DENY self means, to be like the people in the Cemetery. Do you know I can read them the News every day, Tell them what the Government is doing, Tell them the Crime States, Tell them of Global chaos, and you know what their opinions would be? NOTHING, cause they HAVE NO OPINION on anything at all … Know why? CAUSE THEIR DEAD, JUST LIKE YOU are supposed to be, remember?

Galatians 2:19 For through the Law I died to the Law so that I might live to God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ, and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

Romans 6:10The death He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life He lives, He lives to God. 11So you too must count yourselves dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12Therefore do not let sin control your mortal body so that you obey its desires.…

Romans 6:6

We know that our old self was crucified with Him so that the body of sin might be rendered powerless, that we should no longer be slaves to sin.

Tell me? HOW can you profess Crucified with Christ, RAISED in Him, and yet STILL have your OWN BELIEF, Your OWN rights, Your OWN thoughts? Your OWN WAY? Indeed how can YOU use sentences that BEGIN “I BELIEVE!”

DOES WHAT YOU BELIEVE really what counts? Or is Gods BELIEF what YOU BELIEVE? Can you be so naïve to BELIEVE that YOUR BELIEF IS Gods Belief?

Thus all your WORDS? What use are they? How do they SAVE a soul? DO they save a soul … or is it JUST NOISE, without purpose, without direction, neither blesses nor curses, merely wasted breath, leading every conceivable way EXCEPT to Christ? IF it does not Lead to Christ, it need NOT BE SAID … does it?

ChaelD

Con

Wow! That was quite a lot, but impressive, too! Some arguments that you made are that the Denominations are never mentioned in the Bible. Obviously, God's Word never talked about Baptists, Pentacostals, or Catholics by name, but in 1 Corinthians 1:12, Paul describes some different "groups" of Christians: "One of you says, 'I follow Paul'; another, 'I follow Apollos'; another, 'I follow Cephas'; still another, 'I follow Christ.'" Though each of these groups of Christians chose to have a different leader, Paul recognizes that they are still believers. He tries to tell them that Christ is number 1, and they shouldn't let such trivial matters divide them. Earlier on, in Romans 14, Paul gives another example of what could be called "denominations": "One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables... One man considers one day more sacred than another, another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, does so to the Lord." What Paul is trying to get across is that it isn't HOW a person worships that matters; it is WHO they worship. It doesn't matter if you are a Seventh Day Adventist or an Episcopilian; a Catholic or a Southern Baptist. What matters is that you worship JESUS CHRIST as you Lord and Savior. You also mentioned the "massive biblical illiteracy", the lack of tithing, and the betrayal of the Trinity. The first two should be attributed to the individual person, while the last one can only describe a limited amount of modern Denominations. One last point, though fairly theorizing, is to compare Christianity to America. There is only one America, just as there is only one body of Christ. There is only one Commander-in-Chief of America, just as there is only one Christ. America is divided into many different states, each with its own individuality and culture, just like Christianity is divided into many (probably TOO many) denominations, each with its own individuality. Yet every citizen in every state is an American, just like every believer in every denomination is a Christian.
Debate Round No. 2
FollowerofChrist1955

Pro

I desire to keep HUMAN INTERPRETATION AND OPINION from this debate please, it IS THE REASON, we find ourselves here today isn't it?

For example you express a total humanistic opinion and WRONG viewpoint right out of tthe gate, don't you?

Neither Paul, Apollo nor Cephas TAUGHT a defferent belief did they? You knew this, yet your statement could very easily infer that they DID, because you INFER, it in support of Denominations which you well KNOW teach, nontrinitarianism, No Tithe requirement, Human Biblical interpretation ... etc.

Relax. I know you do not mean to mislead new Believers .... nevertheless, you SEE just how FAST humanisim can easily lead astray a immature believer with a poorly thoughtout and human point of view? We as Believers are to VIEW the World and all its functions from a purely BIBLICAL, and Spiritual, Godly viewpoint! That NONE of the Denominations DO THIS is why they, in the larger part ARE spoken of in 1 Corinthians 3:15

"If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved--even though only as one escaping through the flames."

How then can we be SURE that this is their fate? one of no maturity might ask? Are you "NOT" interpreting scripture by MAKING SUCH a connection?

Ah, you see the young is not so foolish as we might think? The HUMAN within them is rife with the demons of doubt ever prodding and needling them to question and doubt Believers. No matter we all GROW out of that sort of thing IF we remain faithful to the scripture. But as to the question? Extremely valid.

First as believers try to utilize scripture as intended, and allow the HOLY SPIRIT to devulge the MEANING within the scripture, rather than TELLING them its meaning. God s the one who should guide them in all matters of meanings. We can merely point them to God for clarification. That WE KNOW a Thing is granted by God alone.

But we CAN help them to view the scriptures from a reality standpoint. For example, the question: 1 Corinthians 3:15

"If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved--even though only as one escaping through the flames."

How then can we be SURE that this is their fate? Are you "NOT" interpreting scripture by MAKING SUCH a connection?

let us investigate this question?
1. WE HAVE ESTABLISHED by direct charge and scripture violation;

that the Denominations teach contrary to BIBLE?
that They fit well within

2 Timothy 4:3

For the time will come when men will not tolerate sound doctrine, but with itching ears they will gather around themselves teachers to suit their own desires.

and Hosea 4:6 expressly states "NO PRIESTHOOD" for these?


The question then becomes quite plain doesn't it?

IF they teach contrary to Gods word- will their works SURVIVE the cleansing FIRE of God?

and what DOES the SCRIPTURE ACTUALLY SAY regarding those whose woks DO NOT SURVIVE the cleansing FIRE?

""If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved--even though only as one escaping through the flames."

At this point the scripture instruction is given ... allow them to go to God and allow God to SHOW them the correct answer ... even though by a mere and BRIEF moment of contemplation the TRUTH can be easily seen AND understood. BUT try NOT to TELL them what to believe but rather cultivate their thinking processes towards a more Godly view, rather than human opinion.

God certainly see's clearer than we do, and HE basis His views on rightness, not emotions.

The rest of your views remain well within the Humanistic VIEW rather than the Godly view. Much like a brother said in the comments section that;

"I profess to be a non-denominational Christian, I've never had the opportunity to talk with a person of the Jewish faith. I don't believe in arguing and attacking people because of differing views.

I'm here to learn and gather different perspectives in order to have a better understanding of people's beliefs. Not trying to convert anyone"

to which I responded quote "What this ACTUALLY says ... I don't CARE that YOU ARE GOING TO HELL. I won't stop you, because that means I have to be confrontational, by telling YOU the TRUTH. So I am going to take the cowards way out ... I'm saved and that's all that counts.

" I don't believe " Well he stated THAT RIGHT!"

You as a Believer HAVE NOT THE AUTHROITY NOR RIGHT to take such a position where the Lords WORD is concerned! YOU do as your TOLD or you do not as your told, You ARE OBEDIENT TO THE LORD YOUR GOD, or you are "NOT" obedient to the Lord your God!

There IS NO MIDDLE GROUND!

IF you choose to ALLOW GODS WORD to be taught CONTRARY to the instructions of God ... YOU TO reap the consequence of your choice? The Apostles DIED in defense of the Word, your statement indicates you care less HOW so called Christians TREAT Gods word.


That this DOESN'T bother you, is disturbing ... however not my concern, other than God has borne witness to your defiance towards Him, and His instructions TO YOU. But as I have plainly stated to all ... your actions, YOUR consequences. I can only SHOW you that you are wrong in accordance with what God says. That YOU cannot show that YOU ARE CORRECT in the same matter, without resorting to innuendo and ADDING by INFERRENCE to the Word of God, which is expressly forbidden, in accordance with Deuteronomy 4:2

"Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the LORD your God that I give you."


Deuteronomy 12:32 "Whatever I command you, you shall be careful to do; you shall not add to nor take away from it.


1 Peter 2:16 As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God.

The Charge:Denominations ARE the identity of 1Timothy 4:1 stands as FACT, in accordance with the Scriptures as provided from the Holy Word itself, without inference nor innuendo as they are plainly stated.


bond·serv·ant
noun
noun: bondservant; plural noun: bondservants; noun: bond-servant; plural noun: bond-servants
  1. a person bound in service without wages.
    • a slave or serf.

The question then is one really of TRUTH OR LIE isn't it?

I say, and affirm that I am a Bonservant of Christ, that I shall do according to Gods word, all that He requires, asks or emands, that I will bear true faith and alliegence to Him, in ever situation corcumstance good or Bad, till he come or Death take me home. I shall stand for His will, His way, forsaking my own thoughts, beliefs, and wants for HIS will, alone! I shall stand against those who discredit God, and shall inform them of their errors as required by God, with the FULL understanding that the consequences are solely upon THEM and the consequences to mea rae only as my actions FAIL to point out in due faith their errors as required and shown by Paul in the matter of the incestuous relationship within the church spoken of in 1 Corinthians 5:5

"deliver such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the Day of the Lord Jesus."

To those who profess the Lord Jesus Christ as their savior and Lord. YOU ARE a Bondservant of Christ by word and Deed, or you are a liar and you do not, it is not for ME to declare the truth among you, That IS the purview of God. I merely point out that HE IS MAKING THOSE JUDGEMENTS RIGHT NOW ... as we can all see plainly that Christ IS closer to coming than He has ever been before.

As a fellow Believer and a Brother, I give you fair and honest warning to "CHOSE THIS DAY WHOM YOU WILL SERVE" God or YOU!

As there WAS no defense provided by scripture, merely misunderstanding brought about by human errors, The Charges against the denominations Stand. That they clearly are in violation of Bondservant status, I think is plain, that they teach a gospel not taught by Apostle, Christ nor prophet is equally plain. That they REMAIN saved by the FREE GIFT by the mercies of God is not of any Doubt, merely the question remains to which I draw your attention today:

1 Corinthians 3:15

"yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

does any one KNOW what this might mean?
and
DON'T YOU THINK you should start LOOKING to SEE what it means, seeing as it LIKELY speaks of YOU?

Next point; off topic but not so OFF that it doesn't beg asking?

THE SCRIPTURES DO NOT demonstrate nor SHOW that one (ONCE in Heaven) CAN EARN REWARDS.
it DOES however state:

Matthew 6:20 But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal.…


Luke 18:22 On hearing this, Jesus told him, "You still lack one thing: Sell everything you own and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow Me."


1 Timothy 6:19 treasuring up for themselves a firm foundation for the future, so that they may take hold of that which is truly life.

Revelation 22:12 "Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done.

To BE a Priest and King in Heaven as discussed in revelation 3:21, or to BE a people of God with SOME REWARD as discribed in 1 Corinthians 3:14, BUT ... to be one who HAS NOTHING BUT SALVATION ALONE?

REALLY? That IS enough for you? Before you answer consider ... the WHY OF your answer? EVERYONE KNOWS Priest and King IS a worthy goal. To choose the bottom of the barrel ... isn't an indicater of humbleness IS IT? But one of SELFISHNESS in the NOW!

Food for thought!



ChaelD

Con

1 Corinthians 12:12-17
"12 For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. 13 For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body"Jews or Greeks, slaves[a] or free"and all were made to drink of one Spirit.
14 For the body does not consist of one member but of many. 15 If the foot should say, "Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body," that would not make it any less a part of the body. 16 And if the ear should say, "Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body," that would not make it any less a part of the body. 17 If the whole body were an eye, where would be the sense of hearing? If the whole body were an ear, where would be the sense of smell? 18 But as it is, God arranged the members in the body, each one of them, as he chose. 19 If all were a single member, where would the body be? 20 As it is, there are many parts,[b] yet one body."
This passage makes it CLEAR that though we are all a part of the body of Christ, we are all very different. If your foot decided on its own that only feet are a part of your body, and all the other "denominations" aren't, you would have serious issues.
"21 The eye cannot say to the hand, "I have no need of you," nor again the head to the feet, "I have no need of you." 22 On the contrary, the parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, 23 and on those parts of the body that we think less honorable we bestow the greater honor, and our unpresentable parts are treated with greater modesty, 24 which our more presentable parts do not require. But God has so composed the body, giving greater honor to the part that lacked it, 25 that there may be no division in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. 26 If one member suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together.
27 Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it. "
Though it may sometimes seem like a different denomination is less of a Christian than you, truth be told BY GOD ALMIGHTY, those that we see as weak are indispensable! I also love that last verse, 27: "Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it. " We are INDIVIDUALLY members of Christ's body. You can not have a stigma against one or all denominations; according to God, it is up to the individual, NOT the Denomination.
Debate Round No. 3
FollowerofChrist1955

Pro

COMPLETELY WRONG ... but BRAVO, you have discovered the TRUTH, that although WRONG in their divisions and beliefs, and althought in betrayal of the Living Word ...

ALL 43,000 DENOMINATIONS ARE SAVED!

But I thought we already understood that they were all saved?

Indeed, 1 corinthians 3:14, 15, Revelations 3:21 ALL CHRISTIANS remember, 1 recieving KINGSHIP and Sons inheritance, 1 recieving rewards alone, 1 recieving Salvation ALONE-yet being himself saved THOUGH WHAT?

that's right- yet so as by fire.

I never said they were NOT Christians? as a matter of Fact, at the onset you will note under DIRECT EVIDENCE AGAINST The Churches of Today- ACCUSATIONS between the denominations inferring KNOWLEDGE that OTHER denominations are not Christians because they do not follow their own personal denominations beliefs.

So your entire litany though absolutely TRUE, was never in question? By me at any rate. though the denominations ARE in violation of those scriptures as well, I simply had not the ROOM to list them, and there are indeed tons more scriptures in violation by the denominations, I just am unable to list them ALL in this small area.

But I applaud your efforts, and discoveries, you ARE INDEED on YOUR WAY to a better understanding of the diferences between the thoughts of Men and the Thoughts of God!

This is WHY, you must throw out YOUR BELIEFs they hold you BACK from the quickening of the Spirit and Relationship God desires for you and Him! You have been TRAINED BY MAN. Not God as I was once. Turn your back on the cunning of Man, the Knowledge of Man, and you will relieve yourself of the ERRORS of MAN as well, or not as you will.

Our time draws to a close ... but go back over our discussion, SEE the diferences between a soul committed to Man and a Soul committed ONLY TO God. SEE the difference. I am NO DIFFERENT than YOU, certainly NO BETTER nor Worse, the differnce merely lies in the commitments we have towards Humanity. I HAVE no commitments to humanity, it is passing away. ONLY God SAVES? I spread the GOSPEL WORD, I WARN THEM OF HELL, as required under Ezekiel 3 that their Blood BE on their OWN HEAD and not mine!

Ezekiel 3:18
18 When I say to a wicked person, ‘You will surely die,’ and you do not warn them or speak out to dissuade them from their evil ways in order to save their life, that wicked person will die for[b] their sin, and I will hold you accountable for their blood. 19 But if you do warn the wicked person and they do not turn from their wickedness or from their evil ways, they will die for their sin; but you will have saved yourself.

God doesn't say anywhere in scripture that we are to concern ourselves with politeness to the extent that we FAIL TO WARN THEM OF HELL? Yet no one tells them? Doesn't make for polite conversation?

How many times have I heard brethren speak against me .. saying He is wrong you can't tell a person that their going to Hell that's not Christian? Really? And by WHOSE DECREE do they MAKE such a comment? Certainly not God, nor scripture?

The seven woes of the Pharises proves Jesus Himself laid into the unbelievers ... because the pharisees WERE UNBELIEVERS AND ATHIESTS. Believing in a God they DID NOT SERVE!

The righteousness of the Pharisees REMEMBER? They are IN HELL and so would YOU BE AND THE DENOMINATIONS SAVE FOR ONE THING and one thing alone! SALVATION IS FREE ... a GIFT of God. You certainly HAVE NOT FOLLOWED Christ? you have FOLLOWED MAN! And your rewards may well be ONLY SALVATION!

BUT ... as stated I have sought to enlighten you through this time. There is yet TIME, to improve your Report Cards before you HAND THEM TO JESUS. Take it .... TAKE IT!

or not as you will.

I found Con (ChaelD) an absolute delight, and have no complaints. You have done well. and I hope that our time together has opened your eyes to the significance in the diferences between the magnitude of knowledge deviation between the Levels of Christianity as shown in the 3 types discribed and demonstrated Here:
Those taught of MAN
AND THOSE TAUGHT OF GOD!

completely DIFERENT VIEWS is it not?
You will see in retrospect that the ONE FROM GOD ... DOES NOT FAVOR MAN AND HIS VIEW!
in fact it REBUKES MAN, for lack of commitment, servitude, and trust!

Where as MAN LIFTS UP the attributes of MAN, THE COMMITMENTS OF MAN, THE TRUST WITHIN MANS RELIGION! all the while in DIRECT DEFIANCE of The Holy Word.

you hear it every Sunday do you not? Some preacher somewhere saying ... IN THS SCRIPTURE it says this ... but in THE GREEK IT REALLY MEANS ...

RED ALERT! RED ALERT! ACTS 17:11

"11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Thank You for your time and cooperation. it is appreciated!

You may message me if you have any questions on scripture and our requirements under them.
Be safe, and may God Bless.
ChaelD

Con

This was indeed a very interesting and quite frankly, fun, debate. You are right- the biggest goal of ours is not what denomination we are, but that we warn the lost and to "improve your report card", as you cleverly put it. Telling them about Hell is vital, but not exclusive.

Matthew 4:19 Jesus called out to them, "Come, follow me, and I will show you how to fish for people!"
How did Jesus exhibit being a fisher of men? Not only did he warn about the impending danger of hell, he used the greatest hook of all time: LOVE. Jesus was a light in a dark world. He gained a following by showing love to the poor, sick, and unloved.

1 Corinthians 13:13 13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.
At the end of the day, it doesn't matter whether I am an Evangelical or a Russian Orthodox or a Messianic Jew. What matters is that I hold on to my faith, my hope, and my love. My faith is in Jesus, and he said "If you love me you will obey my commands." His command is to go into all the world and spread the good news. That is one of my goals.
My hope is that Jesus is coming back in the flesh one day to take me home, and I must NEVER forget that.
My love is to be manifested BY Jesus THROUGH me:

Matthew 5:16 In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven.
When the sun sets, all that really matters is that each and every believer has glorified their Creator and been a witness.

As fun as it was for me to debate this, THIS isn't what really matters. What matters is that I go to school on Monday and shine the Light of Jesus through the halls and into the classrooms, and that every believer does the same in their environment.
Debate Round No. 4
48 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by FollowerofChrist1955 3 years ago
FollowerofChrist1955
Jtlove;
Your error cannot BE rectified as long as you REFUSE to submit to the authority of God. A simple reading of the content and viewpoints expressed BY YOU demonstrates in HD form the violation of the scripture

2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear

"their ears itch, and they must have those that will scratch them. ... 2 Timothy 4:4: And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. (KJV) Paul uses the word fables (_6;a3;_2;_9;`5;`2;), or myths, to describe the remedy that people seek in order to scratch their itching ears.

Why do you come to me with your itching? I have nothing with which you can scratch.
Posted by jtlove 3 years ago
jtlove
Judisim; You said: "It's main purpose is to expose anti-Semites who ridicule the Talmud, Israel, and the Jewish people. Of course, I'll have other helpful articles explaining how Noah's flood was local, Torah and science, as well as debunking Holocaust myths. Then, there is also the Christian/Jewish interpretation of Scripture."

Which I think is great, there is no room for haters. I'm looking forward to getting to know more about Talmud and the Jewish faith of today and yesterday.

" Judaism is a far more peaceful religion than Christianity." (I'm not sure if that is 100% accurate, but I know that people like FollowerofChrist1955 can be abrasive and abusive at times. We are not like that.

Look forward to hearing more! Thank you!
Posted by jtlove 3 years ago
jtlove
judaism: You're most welcome, credit earned is credit do. Unlike some around here... ;)

Just some thoughts, comparing the 1st Covenant with the 2nd Covenant

"I think I know well your source in the Book of Acts, isn't there also a verse (perhaps the same source?) where Peter refused to eat with Gentiles, much to Paul's disgust?"

Yes, the account you are thinking of is in Gal 2:11-14: But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. For before certain men came from James, he was eating with the Gentiles; but when they came he drew back and separated himself, fearing the circumcision party. And the rest of the Jews acted hypocritically along with him, so that even Barnabas was led astray by their hypocrisy. But when I saw that their conduct was not in step with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas before them all, "If you, though a Jew, live like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you force the Gentiles to live like Jews?"

Paul rebuked Peter showing favoritism or as the bible says "being a respecter of persons"

To my knowledge, Hebrews 9:22 is about blood sacrifices atoning for sin, isn't that the whole message of Christianity? You can not be saved without the blood? Yes, but chapter 10 probably explains that part better. It gets into animal sacrifices atoned or set aside sin; whereas Christ blood gave remission of sin. In both past and present. Mean, the sins atoned for in the during the Tanakh or the first Covenant, Christ blood also remiss the sins of the ancestors.

Heb 10:3-4 But in these sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. Then notice wording in... v10: Heb 10:12 But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. (Did you see the offered for all time) Thus giving remission to those in the past, present, and future
Posted by jtlove 3 years ago
jtlove
FollowerofChrist1955: Context...read below...Talking about the false teachers of the time twisting the scriptures. Not hermeneutics. A verse out of Context...Is a Pretext.

It seems likely that the second is preferable. This view is represented by the ESV (cf. HCSB, NKJV, NRSV), "No prophecy of Scripture comes from someone"s own interpretation." Peter likely was attacking the opponents, arguing that they interpreted prophecy to support their own views. In doing so they resisted the proper interpretation given by the apostles. Presumably, the opponents interpreted the Scriptures in such a way that the return of Christ is denied and proceeded to argue that history will go on as it always has (cf. 2 Pet 3:4"7). We have already seen in previous verses that the transfiguration verifies the apostolic interpretation of Old Testament prophecy (vv. 16"19). Verses 16"21 fit together well as an argument if in v. 20 the opponents questioned the apostolic interpretation of prophecy so that they rejected the parousia of Christ. This may explain why the opponents are designated as "false teachers" (2:1) and not as "false prophets" (2:1), in that their error manifested itself in their interpretation of prophecy, not their claim to be the recipients thereof. The initial comments made about the word "interpretation" (epilysis) above also support this interpretation, for this term does not focus on the origination of prophecy but its proper interpretation after the prophecy was given. This interpretation also finds support in 2 Pet 3:16, where we see that the opponents misuse and distort the Scriptures. Peter"s argument, then, is that the readers must pay attention to the prophetic word as it is interpreted by the apostles, for the Old Testament prophecies are not a matter of personal interpretation but have been authoritatively interpreted by the apostles.80

Schreiner, T. R. (2003). 1, 2 Peter, Jude (Vol. 37, p. 323). Nashville: Broadman & Holman Publisher
Posted by FollowerofChrist1955 3 years ago
FollowerofChrist1955
Judaism;
Having stated the facts of the case, which are undesputable by any Jewish belief who claim to follow the old testament.
How in the world can you openly accept the lies your being taught that are in DIRECT VIOLATION of old testament requirements? I cannot believe YOU or anyone would take the WORD of HUMAN BEINGS over the Very Words of God!

You know full well the Old Testament cannot be accomplished any longer since 70 AD, further that God Himself, would have taken steps to ensure the ability to attain Salvation through an alternative way of a DIVINE appointment. That you could possibly believe that God would give humans the right to alter what God Himself commanded, you not to alter, is beyond belief.

That God would establish the ultimate sacrifice, is in keeping with the nature of God completely. That you for a second time deny your messiah, is more than unconscionable.

You need to contact Jews for Jesus as soon as possible. Your blindness is remarkable, demonstrating a complete lack of bible knowledge at all. You MUST BE reading attachments added by man alone. There is no other way to be as blind as you except complete ignoring of the scriptures themselves for the additions of humanity!

Your so disappointing. And you a Jew! SIGH!
Posted by FollowerofChrist1955 3 years ago
FollowerofChrist1955
judaism;
Judaism COULD NOT, CANNOT, HAS NOT, AND WILL NOT, defend his position by the ONLY WORD that counts? The Holy Scriptures! You would do WELL to remember this!

Until he can show scriptures which states no temple sacrifice is necessary under the law of Moses and since the Temple has not existed since 70 AD, EVERY JEWISH person has been without atonement since that timeframe.

No scripture exists that allows jewish or anyone else to add to or subtract from the old testament. So anything spoken by judaism to this point is lies, without scripture proof. Delusion on a grand scale, but suit yourself, if you wish to believe him and go to Hell with him, that is completely up to you. But Heaven is not open to anyone through Judaism .... end of story.
Posted by judaism 3 years ago
judaism
You are stubborn to learn. Judaism is a far more peaceful religion than Christianity. Everyone, even non-righteous Gentiles, can attain salvation if they lead a good life. This is not me speaking, it's the rabbis, who had divine revelation. It's all in the Talmud.

In Christianity, G-d is like a judge, but that judge is merciless. You (the sinner) have commited a crime, and this jude is going to punish you for the rest of your life (eternity) in jail (Hell). There is nothing you can do about it. Suddenly, I (Jesus in this example), walk up to you, and for one reason or another, I happen to take a liking to you, and I approach the judge, asking him that if I pay your bail, he'll set you free. The just and merciless judge agrees. You are now a happy man.

But without my help, there was no hope for you.

In Judaism, it's so different. You've committed the same crime, and you deserve the same punishment for life/eternity, but in this scenario, the judge is merciful. He understands you, and he knows that in your heart, you promise never to sin again. He sets you free because he loves you more than he is just. You don't need any bail, you've already been forgiven without having to pay a price.

This is the G-d of Israel. Our faiths are different, they're structured differently. one is out of fear, the other is out of compassion.

My uncle just died yesterday morning (we found this out last night). He wasn't a Christian. . . would G-d dare abandon him for all eternity?

No.

G-d will not punish us for what we don't know. He won't punish us for our faith, as long as you led a good life, you have a place in the World to Come.

I hope someday you'll keep an open mind and peer into the truth. So far, you've done nothing to refute me. . . perhaps you already know what's right.
Posted by FollowerofChrist1955 3 years ago
FollowerofChrist1955
Judaism;
I"m not the one going to Hell for no blood sacrifice of atonement since 70 AD.

Your problem totally. So opinions like wishful thinking, is as useless as your documents of scholarly opinions.
Posted by FollowerofChrist1955 3 years ago
FollowerofChrist1955
jtlove;
2 Peter 1:20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet"s own interpretation of things. (Do NOT USE HERMENEUTICS!)

THIS has been a part of YOUR Bible for 2000 years, do not blame ME for YOUR FAILURE to read it nor obey it! Thank you very much! God is the one that condemns YOU not me.

Take it up with Him. I "m only responsible to let you KNOW your blowing it! Fixing it is your choice and or consequence.
Posted by judaism 3 years ago
judaism
I should make mention that I have more articles I've written in the past, all to be uploaded to my site in the next month or so. It's called DefendingtheTalmud.com (that'll be the domain).

It's main purpose is to expose anti-Semites who ridicule the Talmud, Israel, and the Jewish people. Of course, I'll have other helpful articles explaining how Noah's flood was local, Torah and science, as well as debunking Holocaust myths. Then, there is also the Christian/Jewish interpretation of Scripture.

I'll remind you all when it's up and running. And if you like it, please subscribe for future articles!
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