The Instigator
mosc
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
Philipoemen
Con (against)
Winning
1 Points

Did Stalin murder virtually all of the Bolshevik pre-revolution Jewish leadership?

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Post Voting Period
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after 1 vote the winner is...
Philipoemen
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 7/9/2018 Category: Politics
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,523 times Debate No: 116418
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (19)
Votes (1)

 

mosc

Pro

Ok hot shot, here's your chance to put up or shut up.
Philipoemen

Con

What an unfortunate topic you have chosen. Rather than debate me on a subject that could possibly make Jews look bad, you have chosen to discuss a subject that places Jews as victims, of antisemitism I guess, a vile emotion that seems to pop up with enough regularity that one starts to wonder if it is perhaps a natural reaction after all. Lets get things straight. I do not know how many Jews Stalin executed, and I certainly do not know how many "pre-revolution" Jewish leaders he killed. I certainly believe that the amount of "pre-revolution" Jewish leaders are vastly out-numbered by the "post-revolution" Jewish leaders, as you well know I am convinced that the Bolshevik/Communist uprising in Russia was a Jewish conspiracy, and if you would like to see the proof you may simply follow my debate http://www.debate.org...

Furthermore, I do not care how many Jews he killed, pre or post. My acceptance of this debate is simply to be able to have a discussion with you, and expose your vehemently pro-Jewish rhetoric. Instead I will argue that any and Jews that Stalin killed thoroughly deserved it, not only because of their traitorous part in the revolution but also in the positions they took post-revolution and subsequently abused in order to exploit and harm the Russian population, in typical Jewish fashion.
I have read some of Stalin's story and his character arc, so to speak, because it is my understanding that after rising up through socialist ranks and eventually beating out Lenin for leadership of the country, he grew suspicious and, eventually, became aware of the more nefarious side of the Jewish influences surrounding him and pressuring him, as well as placing a stranglehold on his country and its native citizens.

"Jewish involvement in the Communist elite of the USSR can be seen as a variation on an ancient theme in Jewish culture rather than a new one sprung from the special circumstances of the Bolshevik Revolution. Rather than being the willing agents of exploitative non-Jewish elites who were clearly separated from both the Jews and the people they ruled, Jews became an entrenched part of an exploitative and oppressive elite in which group boundaries were blurred. This blurring of boundaries was aided by four processes, all covered by Slezkine: shedding overt Jewish identities in favor of a veneer of international socialism in which Jewish identity and ethnic networking were relatively invisible; seeking lower-profile positions in order to de-emphasize Jewish preeminence; adopting Slavic names; and engaging in a limited amount of intermarriage with non-Jewish elites. Indeed, the "plethora of Jewish wives" among non-Jewish leaders doubtless heightened the Jewish atmosphere of the top levels of the Soviet government, given that everyone, especially Stalin,
appears to have been quite conscious of ethnicity."

"Jews formed a far more cohesive core than the rest of the elite because of their common social and cultural background (p. 236). The common understanding that the new elite had a very large Jewish representation resulted in pervasive anti-Jewish attitudes. In 1926, an Agitprop report noted "The sense that the Soviet regime patronizes the Jews, that it is "the Jewish government," that the Jews cause unemployment, housing shortages, college admissions problems, price rises, and commercial speculation"this sense is instilled in the workers by all the hostile elements." If it does not encounter resistance, the wave of anti-Semitism threatens to become, in the very near future, a serious political question" (p. 244). Such widespread public perceptions about the role of Jews in the new government led to aggressive surveillance and repression of anti-Jewish attitudes and behavior, including the execution of Russian nationalists who expressed anti-Jewish attitudes. These public perceptions also motivated Jews to adopt a lower profile in the regime, as with Trotsky, who refused the post of commissar of internal affairs because it might lend further ammunition to the anti-Jewish arguments. From 1927 to 1932 Stalin established an ambitious public campaign to combat antiSemitism that included fifty-six books published by the government and an onslaught of speeches, mass rallies, newspaper articles, and show trials "aimed at eradicating the evil" (p. 249)."

"Probably more typical of the Jewish identity of the Bolsheviks is the account of Vitaly Rubin, a prominent philosopher and an ethnic Jew, who recounted his career at a top Moscow school in the 1930s where over half the students were Jewish:

Understandably, the Jewish question did not arise there. Not only did it not arise in the form of anti-Semitism, it did not arise at all. All the Jews knew themselves to be Jews but considered everything to do with Jewishness a thing of the past. I remember thinking of my father"s stories about his childhood, heder [Jewish elementary school], and traditional Jewish upbringing as something consigned to oblivion. None of that had anything to do with me. There was no active desire to renounce one"s Jewishness. The problem simply did not exist (pp. 253"254).

These Jews clearly have a Jewish identity but they have been removed from traditional Jewish religious cultural forms. In such a predominantly Jewish milieu, there was no need to renounce their Jewish identity and no need to push aggressively for Jewish interests because they had achieved elite status. And yet, just prior to World War II, as Russians started replacing Jews among the political elite and Nazism emerged as an officially anti-Jewish ideology, overt Jewish identity reemerged. Following World War II, Israel began exerting its gravitational pull on Jews, much to the chagrin of a suspicious Stalin. The
visit of Golda Meir in 1948 and the outpouring of Jewish support for Zionism that it aroused was a watershed event for Soviet Jewry. Stalin reacted to it by initiating a campaign against public Jews and Yiddish culture."

"And so began the exodus of Jews. Stalin died and the anti-Jewish campaign fizzled, but the Jewish trajectory was definitely downhill. Jews retained their elite status and occupational profile until the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991, but "the special relationship between the Jews and the Soviet state had come to an end"or rather, the unique symbiosis in pursuit of world revolution had given way to a unique antagonism over two competing and incommensurate nationalisms" (p. 330). A response of the Russians was "massive affirmative action" (p. 333) aimed at giving greater representation to
underrepresented ethnic groups. Jews were targets of suspicion because of their ethnic status, barred from some elite institutions, and limited in their opportunities for advancement."

"And although the Jewish percentage of the political elite did decline after the purges of the late 1930s and the promotion of former peasants and working class Russians, this did not affect Jewish predominance as a professional, cultural, and managerial elite. Jews also retained their elite status despite Stalin"s campaign in the late 1940s against Jewish ethnic and cultural institutions and their spokesmen. Jewish elite status remained even after the purge was expanded to all sectors of the Soviet elite, due at least partly to "the widespread sense [among Russians] that the great victory [in World War II] entitled them to a greater role in decision making" (p. 306)."

"The victory over National Socialism set the stage for the tremendous increase in Jewish power in the post-World War II Western world, in the end more than compensating for the decline of Jews in the Soviet Union

'STALIN"S WILLING EXECUTIONERS - Jews as a hostile elite in the USSR' review of Yuri Slezkine's book 'The Jewish Century'
by Kevin MacDonald

In round 2 I will focus more on proving that Jews were in fact extremely influential in Russia.
Debate Round No. 1
mosc

Pro

Let's start with your thesis statement. "I certainly believe that the amount of "pre-revolution" Jewish leaders are vastly out-numbered by the "post-revolution" Jewish leaders, as you well know I am convinced that the Bolshevik/Communist uprising in Russia was a Jewish conspiracy, and if you would like to see the proof you may simply follow my debate " ... "This revolution was led by racial Jews, and the purpose was destabilisation of Russia, primarily, but not solely, through displacement of the monarchy."

Did the Jews have a primary role in the Revolution which cast the Czar of Russia upon the dung heaps of history? Most definitely YES. Do Jews hate the Russian pigs for jailing Jews into Ghettos for hundreds of years? YES. Did Jews seek their pound of flesh following the Russian pogroms 1880 - 1917? YES. Do Jews view the sub human Russian barbarians as something less than pigs? YES. Do Jews applaud the butchery of Stalin? NO. Does the leadership of Stalin surprise Jews? NO. Russians, have a long history of savage beastiality.

Slander made by Goyim cowards like: "The Jew is a biological parasite who has leeched off White people for millenia with financial exploitation." Merits nothing but a Jew slamming an ax into the head of such vile worthless animals. Fascist Nazi cowards declare: "Like other parasites, the Jew instinctively reduces their host fitness to by general or specialised pathology." Jews applaud the fires of Dresden which consumed about 400,000 Nazi sub human barbarians and removed these counterfeit pigs dressed in the skins of humans from the gene pool.

The sub human inferior races declare: "The Jew used the tool of Communism to subvert these countries." Russia and China existed as strong countries? These fascists, dressed in human clothes call day night and night day. These rogue barbarians despise the leaders of the Jewish people. These sub human none human beings, dressed in fascist clothing declare: " Karl Marx comes from a long line of Rabbis."

The inferior German race could not win a world war, even if they started it - both times. Fascism - a branch of Socialism - lead by homosexual perverts. Yet this Nazi loving sub-human declares: "If you have a look, you will see that 10/15 of the German socialist leaders were Jews". Sub human none people love to slander and lie; they compare to perverts who love the male anus. Here's just one example of their homosexual proclivities: "So the Jews, through Communism, took down the Russian monarchy, and established their own government, largely 'rub' by Jews." According to this trash, Lenin and Stalin were Jewish. But then so was Hitler and Himmler. The best thing to do with these none human apes, cut off their balls so they do not infect the human gene pool.

These alien apes who strut and goose step declare: "Vladimir Lenin (quarter-Jewish)". The alien Nazi race just love the race idea. These ignorant morons their stupidity proves they have no shame. For a person to be a Man, to be Jewish, this person requires a Jewish mother. How stupid does stupid get? When a sub human Nazi strutting moron makes an imaginary quote for a Jewish Encyclopedia and fails to mention of the volume! W h a t a n i d i o t. "Encyclopedia Judaica. p.791-792."

This Fascist strutting moron condemns the Russian Revolution with the White counter revolution upon the Jews. Jews made up less than 1% of 1% of the Russian society, but this brain dead moron condemns Jews for the Russian peoples' Revolution. LOL

This ignorant moron writes: "Whether the Russian people were oppressed before the revolution, I am not sure about". Another extensive quote from this moron: "From the days of Spartacus-Weishaupt to those of Karl Marx, and down to Trotsky (Russia), Bela Kun (Hungary), Rosa Luxembourg (Germany), and Emma Goldman (United States), this world-wide conspiracy for the overthrow of civilisation and for the reconstitution of society on the basis of arrested development, of envious malevolence, and impossible equality, has been steadily growing." This sub human brain dead idiot seems to imagine that a revolution arises when people within any given society enjoy happiness and tranquility. That Goy governments rule their people like Jesus walked upon water.

French Goyim just adored Marie Antoinette who played with skiing in the middle of summer by snow sledding upon hills of sugar while the peasants starved for lack of bread. But no matter that the continuous wars fought by the French kings had bankrupted the monarchy and the French people. Go blame the Jews who existed in ghetto prisons for some 400 years for the crime of being Jewish. Rejoice that the king and doggy winch got their heads cut off. Alas the revolution did not come 1000 years earlier.

This idiot loves to drop Jewish individual names, specific individuals and forgets that a Nation and a People involves millions. What an idiot. That Stalin tortured and shot or murdered all those specifically mentioned Jews [http://www.debate.org...], minor insignificant details, move along nothing to see here.

What bothers these moron Goy racist pigs, Jews remain distinct from the sub human none Jewish ape populations. This idiot ignores that Goyim murdered 75% of all European Jewry in less than 4 years. It does not amaze this brain dead fool that 3 years following this absolute disaster, that Jews fought 5 Arab Armies and thoroughly spanked their bottoms till their nose bled.
Philipoemen

Con

Your argument is basically 80% ad hominem and hardly worth rebuking. Just a bunch of crap. At least you admit that Jews were responsible for the Russian revolution, although you claim it was because of anti-Jewish sentiments in the lead up, yet provide no evidence for this. Lenin was quarter Jewish, Stalin was not. Hitler and Himmler were not either. You even have a go at me for posting a quote by Winston Churchill as if it were my own words. You just hurl abuse at me, at all Goys, at Russians, and at Arabs. The only reasonable criticism is my poor referencing in my other argument. I should put the volume of the encyclopedia but I cant be bothered, and its technically not part of this debate. You did not refute any of the actual content I put in THIS debate. So I shall just continue.

"It is interesting in this regard that the leading Soviet spokesmen on antiSemitism were both ethnic Jews with non-Jewish sounding names, Emilian Yaroslavsky (Gubelman) and Yuri Larin (Lurie). Both refer to Jews in the third person (p. 245), as if they themselves were not Jews. But when Larin tried to explain the embarrassing fact that Jews were "preeminent, overabundant, dominant, and so on" (p. 251) among the elite in the Soviet Union, he mentioned the "unusually strong sense of solidarity and a predisposition toward mutual help and support" (p. 252)"ethnic networking by any other name."

"Indeed, there is no other way to explain the extraordinary percentages of Jews throughout elite institutions, which became apparent when the purges began in the late 1940s (see below). High IQ and achievement motivation can only go so far, and cannot explain why, for example, in the late 1940s Jews made up 80% of the Soviet Academy of Science Institute of Literature (Pushkin House) (p. 302), 42% of the directors of Moscow theaters, over half of Soviet circus directors (p. 301), or eight of the top ten directors of the Bolshoi Theater.32 In the case of Pushkin House, the opponents of the dominant clique stated that it had been forged "by long-lasting relationships of families and friends, mutual protection, homogeneous (Jewish) national composition, and anti-patriotic (anti-Russian) tendencies."33"

"Despite the important role of Jews among the Bolsheviks, most Jews were not Bolsheviks before the revolution. However, Jews were prominent among the Bolsheviks, and once the revolution was under way, the vast majority of Russian Jews became sympathizers and active participants. Jews were particularly visible in the cities and as leaders in the army and in the revolutionary councils and committees. For example, there were 23 Jews among the 62 Bolsheviks in the All-Russian Central Executive Committee elected at the Second Congress of Soviets in October, 1917. Jews were the leaders of the movement, and to a great extent they were its public face. Slezkine quotes historian Mikhail Beizer who notes, commenting on the situation in Leningrad, that "Jewish names were constantly popping up in newspapers. Jews spoke relatively more often than others at rallies, conferences, and meetings of all kinds."54 In general, Jews were deployed in supervisory positions rather than positions that placed them in physical danger. In a Politburo meeting of April 18, 1919, Trotsky urged that Jews be redeployed because there were relatively few Jews in frontline combat units, while Jews constituted a "vast percentage" of the Cheka at the front and in the Executive Committees at the front and at the rear. This pattern had caused "chauvinist agitation" in the Red Army (p. 187). Jewish representation at the top levels of the Cheka and OGPU (the acronyms by which the secret police was known in different periods) has often been the focus of those stressing Jewish involvement in the revolution and its aftermath. Slezkine provides statistics on Jewish overrepresentation in these organizations, especially in supervisory roles, and agrees with Leonard Schapiro"s comment that "anyone who had the misfortune to fall into the hands of the Cheka stood a very good chance of @257;nding himself confronted with and possibly shot by a Jewish investigator" (p. 177). During the 1930s the secret police, then known as the NKVD, "was one of the most Jewish of all Soviet institutions" (p. 254), with 42 of its 111 top of@257;cials being Jewish. At this time 12 of the 20 NKVD directorates were headed by ethnic Jews, including those in charge of state security, police, labor camps, and resettlement (i.e., deportation). The Gulag was headed by ethnic Jews from its beginning in 1930 until the end of 1938, a period that encompasses the worst excesses of the Great Terror. They were, in Slezkine"s words, "Stalin"s willing executioners" (p. 103). The Bolsheviks continued to apologize for Jewish overrepresentation until the topic became taboo in the 1930s. And it was not until the late 1930s that there was a rise in visibility and assertiveness of "anti-Semites, ethnic nationalists, and advocates of proportional representation" (p. 188). By this time the worst of the slaughters in the Gulag, the purges, and the contrived famines had been completed. "

"As Slezkine notes, most of the Soviet elite were not Jews, but Jews were far overrepresented among the elite (and Russians far underrepresented as a percentage of the population). Moreover, the Jews formed a far more cohesive core than the rest of the elite because of their common social and cultural background (p. 236). The common understanding that the new elite had a very large Jewish representation resulted in pervasive anti-Jewish attitudes. In 1926, an Agitprop report noted "The sense that the Soviet regime patronizes the Jews, that it is "the Jewish government," that the Jews cause unemployment, housing shortages, college admissions problems, price rises, and commercial speculation"this sense is instilled in the workers by all the hostile elements." If it does not encounter resistance, the wave of anti-Semitism threatens to become, in the very near future, a serious political question" (p. 244). Such widespread public perceptions about the role of Jews in the new government led to aggressive surveillance and repression of anti-Jewish attitudes and behavior, including the execution of Russian nationalists who expressed anti-Jewish attitudes. These public perceptions also motivated Jews to adopt a lower pro@257;le in the regime, as with Trotsky, who refused the post of commissar of internal affairs because it might lend further ammunition to the anti-Jewish arguments."

'STALIN"S WILLING EXECUTIONERS - Jews as a hostile elite in the USSR' review of Yuri Slezkine's book 'The Jewish Century'
by Kevin MacDonald
Debate Round No. 2
mosc

Pro

Your argument is basically 80% ad hominem and hardly worth rebuking.

Its called measure for measure. You speak like a racist Nazi your shall receive the identical language shoved down your throat.

Just a bunch of crap.

Exactly, my sentiments as well.

At least you admit that Jews were responsible for the Russian revolution, although you claim it was because of anti-Jewish sentiments in the lead up, yet provide no evidence for this.

BS. Russia aint a tiny Island. Your total and complete history of the collapse of the Russian empire following the attempt by Czar Alexander to take the Russian economy out of feudalism in the early 1860s only matches your total ignorance as a "thing" which claims to be part of the human race ... but yet provide no evidence for this.

Lenin was quarter Jewish, idiot a person who's mother is not Jewish ... aint Jewish. Human beings aint breeds of cats and dogs.

Winston Churchill betrayed the Balfour Declaration with his White Paper. I see you like quoting from your own breed of sub human.

You did not refute any of the actual content I put in THIS debate. Bunk. I proved definitively that you exist as a sub human species that exists outside the realms of the human race.

(p. 245)(p. 251)(p. 252) Idiot why quote a page yet omit the source. LOL Pie in the sky none sense and gibberish

in the late 1940s Jews made up 80% of the Soviet Academy of Science Institute of Literature (Pushkin House) (p. 302) So?
42% of the directors of Moscow theaters, over half of Soviet circus directors (p. 301), So?
"Despite the important role of Jews among the Bolsheviks, most Jews were not Bolsheviks before the revolution. So?

You quote statistic from a source which proves nothing. You loser sub humans have an evil eye toward Jews as human beings participating in society. Nikita Khrushchev some idiots in his Party accused him of being 'STALIN"S WILLING EXECUTIONERS' , his response put those idiots in their place and it applies equally to you. 'Jews as a hostile elite in the USSR' - hostility measured by contributing to the betterment of society - according to the statistic which you quoted! What a moron. Criminal behavior that's hostile. Performing in the Arts that's not hostile!
Leonid Brezhnev, Mikhail Gorbachev, ect ect all Russian leaders. Russia its a Goy country idiot. Russia has gone from defeat in WW1 whooooooooop! to becoming a world power 2nd only to the US. Russia beat the sh-t out of the Nazis, to bad you did not freeze in Stalingrad. By your statistics it must be that Jews made up much of the Officer Corps of the Red Army which defeated the your Nazi brothers.
Philipoemen

Con

"Lenin was quarter Jewish, idiot a person who's mother is not Jewish ... aint Jewish. Human beings aint breeds of cats and dogs."

Ive explained this to you before, being Jewish has nothing to do with Jewis Talmudic law, but has everything to do with genetics. Jews are a distinct human subgroup.

A January 2009 study titled “A genome-wide genetic signature of Jewish ancestry perfectly separates individuals with and without full Jewish ancestry in a large random sample of European Americans” (Anna C Need et.al., Genome Biology, 2009; 10(1): R7. doi: 10.1186/gb-2009-10-1-r7) found that “individuals with full Jewish ancestry formed a clearly distinct cluster from those individuals with no Jewish ancestry.”

---

"Idiot why quote a page yet omit the source."

I did put the source, twice. Read my arguments again.

--

"Despite the important role of Jews among the Bolsheviks, most Jews were not Bolsheviks before the revolution. So?"

So my point that the amount of "pre-revolution" Jewish leaders are vastly out-numbered by the "post-revolution" Jewish leaders, was correct, thus your intial debate question makes no sense.

--

I have proven that the Bolshevik revolution was a Jewish conspiracy in two previous debates now, both of which I won. It is not much of a stretch to imagine that Jews continued to dominate high level positions in the Soviet Union. In previous rounds I posted excerpts from a source detailing this to be so. And by reading my opponents hateful rhetoric towards me, other gentiles, Russians, and just about everyone except Jews, is it so hard to believe that Jews see themselves as better than all non-Jews, and justified in conspiring against them, and killing them?

https://imgur.com...
https://imgur.com...

You admit that Jews had a primary role in the Bolshevik revolution, the aftermath of which led to the greatest amount of deaths to white christian Russians ever seen. Your excuse is that the Russians put Jews in ghettos and held many pogroms, killing hundreds of Jews. This is true, and anti-Jewish sentiment was high, partly for your role in the assassination of Alexander II, and partly for other typical Jewish behaviours that have earned them a terrible reputation. Exploitation and predatory lending, ritual murders, general hostility to their host nation and its people, and subversion of that nation's principles and values.

https://imgur.com...
https://imgur.com...

Debate Round No. 3
mosc

Pro

The sub human writes: "Ive explained this to you before, being Jewish has nothing to do with Jewis Talmudic law, but has everything to do with genetics. Jews are a distinct human subgroup. "

This Nazi inferior race type presumes that his opinion amount to more than the manure which a normal human being flushes down the towel following a bowel movement. LOL Now that's funny. See sub human nazi types can possess a sense of humor!

The sub human writes: "So my point that the amount of "pre-revolution" Jewish leaders are vastly out-numbered by the "post-revolution" Jewish leaders, was correct, thus your intial debate question makes no sense."

Recalling my Russian history classes in the University, Jews made up something like 60% or more of the Socialist Parties, amazingly even including the anarchist social revolutionary party! After the revolution the % of Jews in the Communist government dramatically dropped. Stalin murdered virtually all of the pre revolution Jews within the Bolshevik party.

The sub human child of Cretan Queen Pasiphae, being bull headed {LOL} writes: "I have proven that the Bolshevik revolution was a Jewish conspiracy in two previous debates now". Utter none sense. This poor bull headed boy but has only one stomach, can't properly digest the "grass" he eats. The poor thing he's utterly HIGH. Russia under the Czars any thing but a garden of paradise. After Czar Alexander released the peasants from their prison to the Aristocrats; this action destroyed the Aristocrats ability to support themselves financially.

Now seeing that most of the Czarist Autocracy came from this castrated class, the quality of the bureaucrats who ran the Czar government became totally corrupt. This is what brought down the 500 year reign of the Czars of Russia. Dude go back to the cow pens and have more sex!

The sub human child of Cretan Queen Pasiphae declares in the midst of this debate THAT HE HAS ALREADY WON. What a loser, dude other people not you or myself determines who wins this debate. Idiot.

Next this insecure Cretan writes: " It is not much of a stretch to imagine that Jews continued to dominate high level positions in the Soviet Union." Dude the USSR collapsed in 1989! Hello wake up and smell the coffee its 2018. HaHaHaHaHaHa what a total fool. And this dude has yet to say what's wrong with Jewish participation in government??????????!!!! Idiot.

Next this inferior race Cretan writes: "is it so hard to believe that Jews see themselves as better than all non-Jews" ... Like this Nazi race traitor does not pretend that Goyim as a race are superior to Jewish people/not a race. Ewwwwwwww what a hypocrite.

Next this inferior race Cretan writes:"the aftermath of which led to the greatest amount of deaths to white christian Russians ever seen". This reactionary fool clearly has never read the histories of Ivan the Terrible the creator of the Oprichniki, the first official secret Russian police force. Who willed the kingdom to his unfit son, Feodor, whose rule spiraled Russia into the catastrophic Time of Troubles. The country was torn by civil war, unrest and famines.

Czar Alexander II abolished serfdom in 1861. But, he was assassinated. His son Czar Alexander III, in order to avenge his father's murder, imposed strict and ruthless laws. The monarchy in Russia collapsed due to Czar Nicholas II failed to take action even in extreme conditions. A mad monk named Rasputin influenced the Czarina and manipulated most of the Czar's decisions. The event known as Bloody Sunday, shattered people's belief in the Russian Czars, began the 1905 Revolution. The ensuing defeat to the Japanese almost caused the total collapse of the government. The long war of WW1 toppled the Czar and cast this incompetent moron upon the dung heaps of history.

Serfdom was prevalent in Russia during the reign of the Russian Czars. Almost 80% of the Russian people were either peasants or serfs. The Czars did not wish to end the feudal system. As they were afraid of losing power, capitalism was verboten. Most of the Czars were autocratic rulers.

Now the comparison between the Goy governments of the Czar and Stalin. Hmmmmm bad in both cases. Stalin had the purges but Nicholas had his own political repression, savage pogroms and a vile medieval-style absolute monarch rule. Under the Tsar GDP was flat and hardly changed from 1600 to 1900: it nearly tripled over Stalin"s rule after decades of flat-lining. Russia at end on 19th century was more like the Middle Ages. Russia under the Czar - an agricultural based economy, peasant agriculture with virtually no industrialization; Serfdom (aka slavery) had only recently stopped (in some places it lasted till 1892) and the poverty and inequality was unbelievable.

In both cases speaking out against the government was dangerous & could get you killed by Okhrana or NKVD respectively -- but Stalin was far more brutal and far more efficient at repression. I'd take Stalin with better life, education and industrialization, 20th century amenities (however flawed) and do my best to keep out of trouble over Nicholas with medieval life, peasant-dom, poorer quality of life and risk of pogroms.
Philipoemen

Con

"The sub human writes: 'Ive explained this to you before, being Jewish has nothing to do with Jewis Talmudic law, but has everything to do with genetics. Jews are a distinct human subgroup'. This Nazi inferior race type presumes that his opinion amount to more than the manure which a normal human being flushes down the towel"

Its not my opinion, its scientific fact actually, and I provided proof. More ad hominem.


"Recalling my Russian history classes in the University, Jews made up something like 60% or more of the Socialist Parties, amazingly even including the anarchist social revolutionary party! After the revolution the % of Jews in the Communist government dramatically dropped. Stalin murdered virtually all of the pre revolution Jews within the Bolshevik party."

Not that your recollection of history class is much to go by, but im not surprised Jews comprised of a huge portion of the revolutionary parties, all vying for social reform, destabilisation and the end (sometimes even death) of the Tzar and his family. However, after the revolution, the % of Jews in the communist government did not drop, in fact, there was no communist government before the revolution! Thus it greatly increased once the Jewish communists such as Trotsky and Zinoviev came to power. As for the decades after the revolution, the Stalin purges, I will post this passage again hoping to clear things up for you:

"And although the Jewish percentage of the political elite did decline after the purges of the late 1930s and the promotion of former peasants and working class Russians, this did not affect Jewish predominance as a professional, cultural, and managerial elite. Jews also retained their elite status despite Stalin"s campaign in the late 1940s against Jewish ethnic and cultural institutions and their spokesmen. Jewish elite status remained even after the purge was expanded to all sectors of the Soviet elite, due at least partly to "the widespread sense [among Russians] that the great victory [in World War II] entitled them to a greater role in decision making" (p. 306)."

'STALIN"S WILLING EXECUTIONERS - Jews as a hostile elite in the USSR' review of Yuri Slezkine's book 'The Jewish Century'
by Kevin MacDonald


"After Czar Alexander released the peasants from their prison to the Aristocrats"
I dont understand this sentence at all, I dont think it makes any sense. Try rephrasing please.


"The sub human child of Cretan Queen Pasiphae declares in the midst of this debate THAT HE HAS ALREADY WON."
Where did I do that? Pure lies.


"This reactionary fool clearly has never read the histories of Ivan the Terrible the creator of the Oprichniki, the first official secret Russian police force."
There was no way more than 20-60 million deaths in Russia under Ivan the Terrible.


"Russia under the Czars any thing but a garden of paradise."
With the dramatic collapse of Soviet rule, many Russians are taking a new and more respectful look at their country's preCommunist 
history, including the era of the last Romanov emperor. While the Soviets -- along with many in the West -- have stereotypically
portrayed this era as little more than an age of arbitrary despotism, cruel suppression and mass poverty, the reality is rather different.
While it is true that the power of the Tsar was absolute, that only a small minority had any significant political voice, and that the mass
of the empire's citizens were peasants, it is worth noting that Russians during the reign of Nicholas II had freedom of press, religion,
assembly and association, protection of private property, and free labor unions. Sworn enemies of the regime, such as Lenin, were
treated with remarkable leniency.

During the decades prior to the outbreak of the First World War, the Russian economy was booming. In fact, between 1890 and 1913,
it was the fastest growing in the world. New rail lines were opened at an annual rate double that of the Soviet years. Between 1900
and 1913, iron production increased by 58 percent, while coal production more than doubled. Exported Russian grain fed all of Europe.
Finally, the last decades of Tsarist Russia witnessed a magnificent flowering of cultural life. Everything changed with the First World
War, a catastrophe not only for Russia, but for the entire West.

Also, though it may not have been ideal, life after the revolution got considerably worse:
As it turned out, the Soviet toll in human lives and suffering proved to be much higher than Zinoviev's murderous rhetoric suggested. 
Rarely, if ever, has a regime taken the lives of so many of its own people. Citing newly-available Soviet KGB documents, historian
Dmitri Volkogonov, head of a special Russian parliamentary commission, recently concluded that "from 1929 to 1952 21.5 million
[Soviet] people were repressed. Of these a third were shot, the rest sentenced to imprisonment, where many also died."

Olga Shatunovskaya, a member of the Soviet Commission of Party Control, and head of a special commission during the 1960s
appointed by premier Khrushchev, has similarly concluded: "From January 1, 1935 to June 22, 1941, 19,840,000 enemies of the
people were arrested. Of these, seven million were shot in prison, and a majority of the others died in camp." These figures were
also found in the papers of Politburo member Anastas Mikoyan.

Robert Conquest, the distinguished specialist of Soviet history, recently summed up the grim record of Soviet "repression" of it own
people: "It is hard to avoid the conclusion that the post-1934 death toll was well over ten million. To this should be added the victims
of the 1930-1933 famine, the kulak deportations, and other anti-peasant campaigns, amounting to another ten million plus. The total
is thus in the range of what the Russians now refer to as 'The Twenty Million'."

A few other scholars have given significantly higher estimates."
Contrary to what a number of western historians have for years suggested, Soviet terror and the Gulag camp system did not begin 
with Stalin. At the end of 1920, Soviet Russia already had 84 concentration camps with approximately 50,000 prisoners. By October
1923 the number had increased to 315 camps with 70,000 inmates. R. Pipes, The Russian Revolution (1990), p. 836

Author: Weber, Mark
Title: The Jewish Role in the Bolshevik Revolution and Russia's Early Soviet Regime
Source: The Journal for Historical Review (http://www.ihr.org...)
Date: January/February 1994
Issue: Volume 14 number 1
Location: Page 4
ISSN: 0195-6752



In your arguments, we see the famed high verbal IQ of Jews through the ingenuity of your hundreds of insults, yet we also perhaps
see the higher frequency of mental diseases like Schizophrenia that are present among Jews too. The sheer amount of abuse you
constantly direct towards me and others, is giving a really bad look to all Jews, and anyone reading this debate must be chortling at
your angry rants and questionable mental stability.

Debate Round No. 4
mosc

Pro

Its not my opinion, its scientific fact actually, and I provided proof. More ad hominem. Bunk.
Mapping the human genes - 30 years. Jewish law determines who is Jewish not Nazis.

there was no communist government before the revolution! Duh. This Nazi he's on the bright side.

Thus it greatly increased once the Jewish communists such as Trotsky and Zinoviev came to power.

Noise this Nazi brings 2 Jewish leaders, both murdered by Stalin, as if their names prove squat. Silly Nazi.

Yuri Slezkine's book 'The Jewish Century'
by Kevin MacDonald

So? Like you bring a book from some other Nazi supporter like yourself.

"After Czar Alexander released the peasants from their prison to the Aristocrats"
I dont understand this sentence at all, I dont think it makes any sense. Try rephrasing please.

Until 1862 all Russian peasants existed as serfs. Owned by their feudal lords.

"The sub human child of Cretan Queen Pasiphae declares in the midst of this debate THAT HE HAS ALREADY WON."
Where did I do that? Pure lies.
Bunk Apparently you suffer from alzheimer s disease

"I have proven that the Bolshevik revolution was a Jewish conspiracy in two previous debates now, both of which I won."

There was no way more than 20-60 million deaths in Russia under Ivan the Terrible.

Statistics.

While it is true that the power of the Tsar was absolute, that only a small minority had any significant political voice, and that the mass of the empire's citizens were peasants... blah blah. The secret police were everywhere. The censor checked everything. 19th century revolutionaries disguised their political writings by masking them - talking about trees in a forest. The reader had to know how to read between the lines. The illiterate peasant could not even read.

Sworn enemies of the regime, such as Lenin, were treated with remarkable leniency. Lenin was sent to Siberia 2 or 3 times and fled the country. Yea Leniency!

During the decades prior to the outbreak of the First World War, the Russian economy was booming.

Ooooooops nothing to see here just the Czar slaughter of several thousand unarmed protestors & the 1905 revolution. Booming like guns blasting!

In fact, between 1890 and 1913,it was the fastest growing in the world. Yea, same period as the Russian pogroms against all the Jews in the Pale of Russia. Dream on with your revisionist history!

New rail lines were opened at an annual rate double that of the Soviet years.

Peachy king! Russia lost WW1 Stalin defeated the Nazis - your people - in WW2. ooops move on another lie.

Between 1900 and 1913, iron production increased by 58 percent, while coal production more than doubled.Between 1900

Wow amazing growth from virtually nothing. 1 + 1 = 2 Wow 2 is double that of 1 amazing! By 1910, Russian wheat constituted 36.4% of the total world export of wheat. At the same time, agricultural efficiency was lower in comparison with other developed countries (e.g., grain throughput was 20% lower than in the United States). Serfs who had been liberated by the emancipation reform of 1861 lacked the financial ability to leave their new lands, as they owed money to the state for periods of up to 49 years.

Minister Stolypin, as a staunch conservative, sought to reduce radicalism among the peasants, thus preventing further political unrest such as that which occurred during the Revolution of 1905. The state implemented the Stolypin agrarian reforms in a comprehensive campaign from 1906 through 1914. This system was not a command economy like that found in the Soviet Union in the 1920s, but rather a continuation of the modified state capitalism program begun under Sergei Witte.

Russia ended the Crimean War with minimal territorial losses, but was forced to destroy its Black Sea Fleet and Sevastopol fortifications. Russian international prestige was damaged, and for many years revenge for the Crimean War became the main goal of Russian foreign policy.

Witte set about making the railway service a monopoly of the State. Witte also obtained the right to assign employees based on their performance, rather than political or familial connections. Witte got acquainted with Matilda Ivanovna (Isaakovna) Lisanevich in a theater. Witte began to seek her favour, urging her to divorce her gambling husband and marry him. The marriage was a scandal, not only because Matilda was a divorcee, but also because she was a converted Jew.

Tsar Alexander III appointed him acting Minister of Ways and Communications in 1892. This gave him control of the railroads in Russia and the authority to impose a reform on the tariffs charged. "Russian railroads gradually became perhaps the most economically operated railroads of the world.".

In 1902 Witte's supporter the Minister of Interior Dmitry Sipyagin was assassinated. He was assassinated in the Mariinsky Palace by Socialist-Revolutionary Stepan Balmashov. Stepan Balmashov was arrested in Jan. 1901, along with 183 other students at the Taras Shevchenko National University of Kiev for participating in a student strike. Upon returning to the university in the autumn of that same year, he became interested in the Kiev Union of Socialists, of which he eventually became a member. During his questioning, Balmashov stated that, "the method of combating a terrorist seems to me inhumane and cruel, but it's inevitable with the current regime".

Pakhomy Ivanovich Adreyushkin (May 15, 1865 " May 8, 1887) was a Russian revolutionary, member of Narodnaya Volya.

In 1886, Andreyushkin enrolled in St. Petersburg University. That same year, he became a member of the "Terrorist Faction" of Narodnaya Volya and, together with Aleksandr Ulyanov and others, took part in planning the assassination of Tsar Alexander III.

Andreyushkin was arrested on March 1, 1887. On May 8, he was executed at the Schlisselburg Fortress.

On 14 September 1911, Dmitry Bogrov shot the Russian prime minister Pyotr Stolypin, in the Kiev Opera House, in front of Tsar Nicholas II and two of the imperial princesses. Stolypin died four days later. This act was committed ostensibly in order to decapitate a successful and popular conservative reform movement and thus hasten violent revolution. Bogrov was sentenced to death and executed by hanging on September 24 [O.S. September 11] 1911 in the Kiev fortress of Lysa Hora.

Ivan Kalyayev is best known for his role in the assassination of Grand Duke Sergei Alexandrovich, which was an operation of the SR Combat Organization. Arrested at the scene, Kalyayev was convicted of murder and hanged. The next to be killed was the General-Governor of Moscow and uncle of Tsar Nicholas II, Grand Duke Sergei Alexandrovich. He said, 'I killed Sergei Alexandrovich because he was a weapon of tyranny. I was taking revenge for the people. 'I do not repent. I must die for my deed and I will... My death will be more useful to my cause than Sergei Alexandrovich's death.

Kalyayev was sentenced to death. 'I am pleased with your sentence,' he told the judges. 'I hope that you will carry it out just as openly and publicly as I carried out the sentence of the Socialist Revolutionary Party. Learn to look the advancing revolution right in the face.'"

Afanasy Nikolayevich Matushenko was a non-commissioned officer in the Russian Black Sea Fleet, revolutionary socialist, and ringleader of the mutiny on the Russian battleship Potemkin. He lived in a tiny hut (15 feet square) with his parents and five siblings; he saw the type of persecution which blind kobzars underwent from Tsarist police whenever they visited the city. He was persecuted by Tsarist authorities because of his association with Ukrainian culture and the bandura. He joined a Marxist study circle led by future Bolshevik Vladimir Petrov.

On his 21st birthday, Afanasy was conscripted for seven years into the navy and sent to Sevastopol for four months of training. Here he joined Tsentralka, the sailors' revolutionary organisation.
Philipoemen

Con

"Mapping the human genes - 30 years. Jewish law determines who is Jewish not Nazis."
No. Science proves that Jews are a race.

"Sworn enemies of the regime, such as Lenin, were treated with remarkable leniency. Lenin was sent to Siberia 2 or 3 times and fled the country. Yea Leniency!"
Lenin was comfortable. He got married in exile. He was able to communicate with other revolutionaries. He had visits and went hunting and swimming.

"Ooooooops nothing to see here just the Czar slaughter of several thousand unarmed protestors & the 1905 revolution."

"Was Tsar Nicholas II responsible for Bloody Sunday, as Marxist propagandists have claimed? He couldn't have been because he was out of the city at the time. Bloody Sunday turned Russia's industrial population against the Tsar. Jewish agitators capitalized on this to promote the 1905 revolution. Chief leader of the 1905 revolt was Trotsky."

"On Dec. 20th the Jew, Alexander Lvovich Parvus (real name Israel Lazarevich Gelfand), assumed control of a new executive committee of the Soviet and organized a general strike in St. Petersburg which involved 90,000 workers. The next day 150,000 workers went on strike in Moscow, and there were insurrections in Chita, Kansk, and Rostov. But within a week the government had gained the upper hand and by the 30th of December the revolution was over.

As an outcome of the 1905 revolution, Tsar Nicholas II set about remedying the shortcomings of his regime in a most commendable manner. At his decree, Russia was given representative government and a constitution. An elective legislaturethe Duma - was established, and free elections were held. By these measures and others which followed, Russia seemed well on the way to becoming a constitutional monarchy patterned after the western European model, and as a point of fact it was only the outbreak of World War I which prevented this from becoming a reality. As would be expected, the Jewish revolutionary parties bitterly opposed these reforms, looking on them as merely a device by which the forces of revolution would be dissipated. Actually these measures did succeed in pacifying the Russian masses, and the years between 1905 and 1914 were ones of comparative quiet and progress. No man deserves more credit for this state of affairs than Prime Minister Pyotr Arkadyevich Stolypin, who in the year following the 1905 revolt emerged as the most impressive figure in Imperial Russia. From 1906 to 1911 it is no exaggeration to say that he dominated Russian politics. It was he who gave Russia the famed "Stolypin Constitution," which among other things undertook to guarantee the civil rights of the peasantry, which constituted 85% of Russia's population. His land reforms, for which he is most famous, not only gave the peasant the right to own land, but actually financed the purchase with government loans. Stolypin was determined to give the peasant a stake in capitalism, believing that "the natural counterweight of the communal principal is individual ownership."

Were the Stolypin land reforms effective? Bertram Wolfe, American Jewish Communist Party member and author, who is on all points anti-Tsarist and pro-revolutionary, had this to say54: "Between 1907 and 1914, under the Stolypin land reform laws, 2,000,000 peasant families seceded from the village mire and became individual proprietors. All tluough the wax the movement continued, so that by Jan. I, 1916, 6,200,000 peasant families, out of approximately 16,000,000 eligible, had made application for sepaxation. Lenin saw the matter as a race with time between Stolypin's reforms aILd the next upheaval. Should an upheaval be postponed for a couple of decades, the new land measures would so transform the countryside that it would no longer be a revolutionary force. How near Lenin came to losing the race is proved by the fact that in 1917, when he called on the peasants to 'take the land,' they already owned more than three-fourths of it." Russian Jewry wanted revolution, not reform. As early as 1906, an attempt had been made to assassinate Prime Minister Stolypin when his country house was destroyed by a bomb. Finally in Sept. of 1911 the best Prime Minister Russia ever had was shot down in cold blood while attending a gala affair at the Kiev theatre. The assassin was a Jewish lawyer named Mordekhai Bogrov. Thus it was that Russia had since 1902 lost two Prime Ministers to Jewish assassins. "

The Secret behind Communism by David Duke (2013)


Debate Round No. 5
19 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by asta 3 years ago
asta
I can't vote, but I think Con won 6 to 0 on everything except spelling. He cited links, he was easier to understand, and he didn't call his opponent an anti Semite.
Posted by mosc 3 years ago
mosc
"On Dec. 20th the Jew, Alexander Lvovich Parvus (real name Israel Lazarevich Gelfand), assumed control of a new executive committee of the Soviet and organized a general strike in St. Petersburg which involved 90,000 workers. The next day 150,000 workers went on strike in Moscow, and there were insurrections in Chita, Kansk, and Rostov. But within a week the government had gained the upper hand and by the 30th of December the revolution was over.

This proves that Russia in the year prior to the Revolution which cast the Czar pig and his evil family upon the dung heaps of history - that the times which prevailed - chaos and anarchy.
Posted by mosc 3 years ago
mosc
"Was Tsar Nicholas II responsible for Bloody Sunday, as Marxist propagandists have claimed? He couldn't have been because he was out of the city at the time. Bloody Sunday turned Russia's industrial population against the Tsar. Jewish agitators capitalized on this to promote the 1905 revolution. Chief leader of the 1905 revolt was Trotsky."

Tsar Nicholas his soldiers committed the crime of Bloody Sunday. Go find another scape goat. coward.
Posted by mosc 3 years ago
mosc
The Secret behind Communism by David Duke (2013) ... David Duke the head of the KKK. What a moron.
Posted by mosc 3 years ago
mosc
Only Nazis declare Jews as being a race. Any person on the planet earth can become Jewish. Torah teaches the spirituality of living a righteous life - that's not a race.
Posted by mosc 3 years ago
mosc
The Russian pogroms compares to pissing on an ant bed. Jews wanted to remove the criminal Czar government from Russia as a public service.
Posted by Philipoemen 3 years ago
Philipoemen
What are you talking about mosc? You said yourself that "Jews made up something like 60% or more of the Socialist Parties".

I shall continue to expose Jewish lies.
Posted by mosc 3 years ago
mosc
Yes he's a real name dropper. I just brought about five leaders of socialist revolutionary parties, primarily SA - all none Jews. But this Nazi can't see past his blinders.
Posted by Debating_Horse 3 years ago
Debating_Horse
The (con) is an alt-right neo Nazi clown. xD http://www.youtube.com...
Posted by mosc 3 years ago
mosc
In his mind he wins all arguments and publicly declares "that I can not lose". LOL He loves straw man arguments. The 1st straw man argument, which proved that he was right, he has a mysterious Rav that does not approve of my contributions to debate.org. But he refuses to name this Rav. Next strawman: 12 other rabbis agreed, and opposed my atheist praise God opinion. Bowels for brains believes that Jesus son of Zeus and the God of Israel -- one in the same God. Ewwww.

Then he challenged me to a debate but never carried out his challenge. This forced me to make the challenge. Almost 300 comments and Bowels for Brains never once addressed the title of the Debate Why did the Baali Tosafot put the Rambam into Charem/excommunication? Must have challenged him to address this score 30 times, yet he never did.

As far as the Zohar goes. Bowels for Brains struts around like a roster in mating season. The Ari, a respected kabbalist added to the Zohor. If the Zohar was written by Rabbi Shemon bar Yochai, then according to the halacha established by Rav Ashi and Rav Ravina the Ari violated the prohibition to add to the sealed traditions. The Ari added to the Zohar. Bowels for Brains declares he did not. He never brought any proof why? Ask this child who lies - perhaps he will answer you.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by dsjpk5 3 years ago
dsjpk5
moscPhilipoemenTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
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Total points awarded:01 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro called Con a "brain dead fool" in round two. That's poor conduct.

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