The Instigator
YeshuaBought
Con (against)
The Contender
L.Alvarez
Pro (for)

Discussing the problem of evil: Does God cause evil?

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 6/30/2018 Category: Politics
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Debating Period
Viewed: 370 times Debate No: 116146
Debate Rounds (4)
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YeshuaBought

Con

I want to have a discussion about the problem of evil. Many skeptics confuse allowation with causation. The two are not exactly synonymous as I will demonstrate. I have 5 mental illnesses, and used to blame my God named Yeshua Jesus until I discovered 2 Timothy 1:7 which says "for God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power, and of love, and OF SOUND MIND". What this means is Jesus allowed but did not cause my suffering. Other people and evil spirits plus genetics did. Another point I want to make is that God gave angels and humans free will to choose good or evil. God gave us choice,m and far too often, we attack Him, when we should attack Satan. Jesus is the God in human flesh who was VIOLATED to death and rose again so repentant sinners can repent of past, present, and future sin as well as confessing to God the Father that Jesus Christ is Lord and God has raised Him from the dead. That is it. Nothing more is needed for salvation. This is why the gospel oiffends Jewish and Gentile sinners alike because sinners are usually works oriented, but good works are the result of, not the cause of salvation (Ephesians 2:8-10), and I did include verse 10. Jesus is the Way, Truth, and LIFE, no one comes to the Father but by Him. He breathed LIFE into mny dead and broken heart. I was going to kill mnyself when I was 15, until I was saved by Jesus. I did not get slain in the spirit whatever that means, but I felt safe for the first time in my life EVER. Caps for emphasis only, I am not angry, just joyful. I want to include some links for clarification: https://www.gotquestions.org... https://www.gotquestions.org... https://www.gotquestions.org... https://www.gotquestions.org... https://www.gotquestions.org... For the strong deniers of the deity of Jesus: https://www.gotquestions.org...
L.Alvarez

Pro

Hello YeshuaBought, before starting this debate I want to acknowledge that this can be a sensitive topic for some people (also all other regarding religious claims); keeping this in mind I want to make clear that it is not my intention to cause an emotional disturbance on anyone. The only purpose behind this debate is to share and contrast different ideas in hope that some truth may be found.

For this debate to have fruitful results it seems crucial to me that we start sharing some common ground. I want to state what I would regard as evil. Evil is any act or intention that may produce suffering where it could be avoided. I do want to ask my opponent if he accepts this as the meaning of evil. Also before I annihilate any notion if the God of the Bible were to exist he would be a good being I want to know if my opponent maintains that this debate regards the good of the Bible, the omnipotent, omniscient, and benevolent one. Further, I want to know if my opponent regards miracles as real and solely from the work of God. Lastly, I want to ask the question to my opponent and to the voters. Do you regard human sacrifice as a moral act?
Debate Round No. 1
YeshuaBought

Con

https://www.blueletterbible.org... Thank you for being a well balanced debater. Please use the link I provided to search the Bible in English and post links. Then together we can explore the original languages. Now for my personal debating. I believe God gave us and angels freewill, and some choose evil. That is the cause of suffering, not God. Humans who died in the Bible often did ugly things like murder, torture, rape, and human sacrfice. That is why God gets angry sometimes, but as I said in regards to my mental illnesses, God did not do it. 2 Timothy 1:7. God did not rape me either. God hate rape. My rapist raped me. I deeply respect your desire to avoid offense, and am trying to do the same. My final and very most important points are as follows: God is pure and not a drop of evil, but He is not the dictator people claim He is. He allows evil through the freewill He gave us, but God never causes evil. Ever. Last point: Allowation is not causation by ommittion, please excuse my lack of spelling. The King James Version translators mishandled the text of Isaiah 45:7 which alleges that God created good and evil, but that is an incorrect translation. God God is good, and blesses or disciplines His humans based on whether we obey His will. I don't currently understand Hell, but ifyou want to bring that up, I am okay with that. My understanding of God and His will is finite, but growing in Christ.
L.Alvarez

Pro

I want to start the second round by conveying an apology. I think I did not state my points as clear as I could. I'm sorry if that caused a misunderstanding; I'll try to clarify my questions and add a better structure to the argument. This time I'll try to be as clear as possible.

As I said earlier, for this debate to arrive somewhere we must have a shared understanding and state definitions. To achieve this, I like you to answer the following:
Do you share my earlier definition of evil "Evil is any act or intention that may produce suffering where it could be avoided,"?
Do you regard God as being omnipotent, omniscient, and benevolent?
Do you believe miracles are a real thing and produced by God?
Do you regard human sacrifice as a moral action or an evil one?
(Please answer these questions with a y/n, if you differ on something state why)

You offer a link to a bible reference library, for now I'm not planning to use any bible verse to support my argument that God is evil; if you do, I suggest you to use an impartial source, and not the page you provided. It is not reliable because as it says in its "about page", it is a tool to study the bible through a historical Christian faith. I recommend you to use a source without a religious affiliation. It helps with credibility.

As I understand your argument, your idea is:
- God gave humans free will.
- This free will is the source of evil in the world.
- Allowance differs from causation, therefore, God it is not complicit in the evil produced.

Here is the flaw in your argument although sometimes human beings are the authors of evil that is not always the case. That is the difference between moral evil and natural evil. Moral evil is the one cause by an agent. While, natural evil is one without an agent. (https://en.wikipedia.org...)
Just to lay out and example, last September an earthquake stoke Mexico city, at least 361 people died. Out of this tragedy there was a popular story, a preschool called Rebsamen collapsed killing 19 children and 6 adults. So here is where one wonders if God is all good and all powerful how could he let innocent children die in this way? He wouldn't be infringing on somebody's free will, if he is benevolent he'll be compelled to help, if he is omnipotent he'll be able to help, if he is omniscient he'll know where to help. So, why doesn't he intervene?
(https://en.wikipedia.org...) (https://www.nytimes.com...)

- God is (supposedly) a benevolent, omniscient and omnipotent being.
- Natural evil is incompatible with a benevolent, omniscient and omnipotent being.
- Natural evil exist.
- Therefore, God is not benevolent, omniscient and omnipotent being.

I know your main defense is that allowance is not causation. However, evil is not conditioned to authorship. God is evil from the fact that does nothing to prevent suffering where totally capable of doing, emphasizing that if he is all good it would be within his nature to stop it or at least try to.

One last point I want to raise is that many believers work on a double standard. Whenever something unexpectedly good happens they called it a miracle, God indeed decided to intervene on their behalf. However, whenever something bad happens, as the tragedy I just mentioned above, they look away and spare God by saying he does not intervene in human affairs or that is was the product of human free will. For the objective readers this two ideas will lead to the inevitable question, how could a good God decide to intervene in some banal miracle and be indifferent to the deaths of multiple children?
Debate Round No. 2
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Debate Round No. 3
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Debate Round No. 4
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