The Instigator
NKJVPrewrather
Pro (for)
The Contender
jtlove
Con (against)

Do Christians need God's Law to bring them to repenteance?

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 3/9/2018 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Debating Period
Viewed: 499 times Debate No: 110487
Debate Rounds (5)
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NKJVPrewrather

Pro

Feel free to specify the need for proof. Please watch this: https://www.biblegateway.com...
jtlove

Con

If you agree to my position on the subject and definitions. I will debate.

Position: I will show that God's Law (being the New Testament) is need for the alien sinner to come to repentance, as well as for the Christian.

I define Christian as a faithful follower of Christ law, who has repented of his/her prior sinful ways and followed the examples of conversions recorded in the books of Acts

I define a disciple as follower of Christ and who may or may not have been converted

I define God's Law as two parts; the Mosaic/Prophets/Old Testament Law and The New Covenant Law which is the New Testament or the the law of Christ as referred to by Paul in Gal 6.2

I define Law as meaning; a direct command, a demonstrated example, and/or an conclusive inference that is taken from the scriptures.

Example of Inference: In Acts Chapter Ten, we read of the conversion of Cornelius. At no time was Peter told what he was to do. He had 3 visions from the Lord, the Holy Spirit told him three men were looking for him, and to go with them. Upon reaching Cornelius's house Peter realized what it was he was to do. Peter say to everyone there "In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality." (Acts 10.34) and proceeded to preach the Gospel/Good New. Now, how did Peter know he was to do this? He inferred/perceived from his visions what he was to do and that God was to include the Gentiles under the New Testament.

I define Repentance as the sincere act of asking God/Christ for forgiveness as well as the turning away from the sin, by turning away I mean to stop doing the sin.

Example: I'm a compulsive shoplifter, I pray and ask for forgiveness of my sinful deed of stealing, however, I know that most likely I will go and shoplift again when the opportunity present itself. This is not repentance, because the person continues to do the sinful act. Repentance would be to stop stealing and not do it anymore. Forgiveness is not Repentance, but for the most part, Forgiveness can't be obtained without Repentance (Consider Hebrews 10.26: For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins)

I define Sin as: Iniquities or the act of going against the will of God/Christ, to sin is to separate (Ish 52.9) oneself from God, and to sin is to be dead to God/Christ. Rom 6.23: For the wages of sin is death

I'm not exactly sure of your position, because you say watch this, but the link to me to Psalms 23. If you could specify your position. It would greatly appreciated.
Debate Round No. 1
NKJVPrewrather

Pro

This is who is a Christian (did you watch the video), that he or she who has been called to repentance by the Holy Spirit to confess past poresent and future sins and radical acceptance of Jesus Christ as God (John 1:14), Lord (many places in the Bible), and Savior(likewise. A confession is then made with the mouth to tell about the saving relationship with Jesus. Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
Luke 13:13 There were present at that season some who told Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. 2 And Jesus answered and said to them, "Do you suppose that these Galileans were worse sinners than all other Galileans, because they suffered such things? 3 I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish. 4 Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them, do you think that they were worse sinners than all other men who dwelt in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish."

Salvation causes good works, not the other way around. Good works are just an expression of salvation (Yeshua in Hebrew). Jesus is also called Yeshua. So, can you tell me, the you keep and kept God's Biblical Law with absolute perfection like Jesus? Nope. Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
This is a call to repent and be saved.
jtlove

Con

Did you read my opening & do we agree on the terms? I also identified that your link DOES NOT take me to a video, your link is a shortcut to Psalms 23 on Biblegateway.com.

God is Christ (John 1.14) this is part of the concept of the Godhead (Divine nature), some might say the Trinity. John in his 1st epistle states "For there are three that bear witness in heaven: The Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one." (1 John 5.7) Some struggle with this concept, it is clearly taught & referenced in John 1; John 14.8-11; 1 John 5, and to be as short and succinct as possible on the subject. The best explanation I've heard is"While The Three are one in nature, purpose, and thinking, They are like different personalities, each with His own part/role in the scheme of redemption. See here at https://www.gotquestions.org...

Yes, Lord can be used to designate not just Jesus as God, but the Godhead as a whole. As well as "Us" in the OT (consider Genesis 1.1, 26; 3.22; Isaiah 6.8) the Hebrew plural noun "Elohim" is used. In the verses I reference, the plural pronoun for "Us" is used. The word "Elohim" and the pronoun "Us" are plural forms, [1] definitely referring in the Hebrew language to more than two. Although the Trinity cannot be derived solely from the use of the plural, a plurality within the unity of the Godhead may be derived from the passage [2] and supports John's poetic language in defining who the Christ is in John 1.1-18.

You state "Future sins, where in the bible does it say we can ask for forgiveness of future sins?"

- There some who believe the penalty for every believer's sins past, present, and future was completely paid for by the once-for-all sacrifice of Christ. That means that there is no sin for which the believer must pay anything at the time of judgement. [3]

-In Hebrews 10.10-12; Only through Christ death could man receive forgiveness of sin, and that His sacrifice was for sins, forever. For all of man, past/present/future

-1 John 1.5-10; John says in v6 - "we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie"; v7 - "if we walk in the light as He is in the light"and the blood of Christ"cleanses us from all sin"; v8 - "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves"; v9 - "If we confess our sins, He"forgive us our sins"

-Note that John is talking to Christians here, so in order to receive forgiveness of future sin, we have to confess them to Him, to receive remission.

Concerning Ephesians 2.8-10; What Paul is referring to, is not any and every deed/work, look at the reference in your bible, ESV note (d); KJV note (u); which cross-references to Romans 3.20; 28. In Romans, Paul is talking about the "works" of the law, by law, he means Old Testament. Paul is talking to Jews. Refer back to Hebrews 8-10; on doing away with the old testament, for Christ is the new testator.

Looking up the Greek Lemma, Works here are deed, role (in ministry) [4]
-Type of
- activity
- work
-duty
-legal responsibility
-role - ministry
-task

-What the lemma reveals, is activities such as prayer, praise, confessing, rite/baptism are not be within the context of this Greek word (ergon) that is translated as works [4]. The proper context would be more like the offering of sacrifices under the old law. Again, going back to book Hebrews sacrifices of animals only atoned for sin, it did not forgive sin. (I'm unable to show the entire lemma for it is a word tree graph)

Your state of "Salvation causes good works, not the other way around. Good works are just an expression of salvation"

-It's not that I disagree with your statement, but I think it's a little deeper than stated. Consider these three points.
-It might be a matter of semantics but, what Paul is probably saying here is we are to "holy" [5] However, if one is living a holy life, one would do good works, and be acceptable to God. (Romans 12.1)
-If there is one thing that causes us to do good works, I would contend that it is Love. Consider 1 Corinthians 13.13; And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
-If we have love, a love for God, a love for Christ, a love for the Spirit, and a love for our fellow brethren and mankind. Then everything else falls into place, we do what we have to do in order to express our love. Especially, God the father, and the Son of God. How can one not love God and Christ, give that Christ died for us and God offered up His Son so that we might have remission sin and eternal live.

You said "Kept God's Biblical Law with absolute perfection like Jesus?"

-You're being a little miss leading here, what Christ kept perfect, was the OT Law.
-To answer your question: No, I have not, but I also don't live under the OT Law.
-The purpose of the OT Law was not so any man would not sin, but that man may know what sin is. God had intended this before the creation, thus the statement "God hath before ordained."
-We now live under the Law of Christ as define in my open statement and we are all still sinners. (1 John 1.8)

You point out "Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, this is a call to repent and be saved."

-Romans 10.7; Hearing produces Faith
-Romans 10.9; is a call to confess Christ in order to be saved
-Romans 6.4; is a call to be baptized so as to be raised from the dead (sin), and walk in newness of life (remission)
-Mark 16.16; is a call to believe and baptize, so as to be saved
-1 Peter 1.15; we're called to be holy

-You are correct, we have all sinned and we must repent to be saved, and salvation is by the grace of God (meaning kindness of God), but there are more activities that we are called to in conjunction with repentance in order to be saved.

-Hearing, believing, confessing, baptizing, praying are all activities to be saved

[1] Bratka, B. D. (2016). Elohim. In J. D. Barry, D. Bomar, D. R. Brown, R. Klippenstein, D. Mangum, C. Sinclair Wolcott, " W. Widder (Eds.), The Lexham Bible Dictionary. Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press.

[2] Mathews, K. A. (1996). Genesis 1-11:26 (Vol. 1A, p. 163). Nashville: Broadman & Holman Publishers.

[3] McDowell, J. (1997). Josh McDowell's handbook on apologetics (electronic ed.). Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson.

[4] Logos Bible Software, Bible Sense Lexicon

[5] Notes on the Bible, by Albert Barnes, [1834], at sacred-texts.com
Debate Round No. 2
NKJVPrewrather

Pro

I am a Christian. I amn not saying that we need works to be saved, and I have reasd your statement. How can we repent pof sin if we have no knowledge of our need to repent? We are all sinners Romans 3:23 and we all need to be saved.
jtlove

Con

I still don't know what video, you were referring to in your opening remarks.

Question: "How can we repent of sin if we have no knowledge of our need to repent?"
Answer: We cannot and here is why...

That's the purpose of the great commission and what it was all about (Mat 28.18-20), just as it was during the time of apostles, it is through the hearing of the word of God that one receives faith (Rom 10.17) and knows what one must do in order to receive remission. Read in Act 2, Peter was giving the first sermon of the Gospel. This is the establishment of the New Testament church, he begins by reminding them what the prophet Joel had foretold. In v22 Peter reminds them of Jesus and his resurrection, v25 Peter quotes King David. Then Peter from v26-31 ties it all together for them and how the prophecy of old has been fulfilled in Christ Jesus.

In Act 2.37 we read; Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?"
-So, they heard
-Their conscience was sorrowing, upon realizing what they had done
-Peter and the rest of the apostles ask those who had gathered there a rhetorical question "what we shall do?"

Acts 2.38: Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Act 2.41: Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.

We can clearly see from the account in Act 2, if it had not been for Peter and rest of the apostle preaching and telling those who had gathered there that day. The church would not have been established. Nowhere in the bible did anybody miraculously discover what it was they need to do in order fulfil God's Law (Old & New Testament) without being told. Even Moses, who was a type of Christ had to be told what to do and his account is recorded throughout the book of Exodus.

In Act 10, we read of the conversion of the first Gentiles, the same sequence of events took place as did for the first Jew who were converted on the Day of Pentecost. Remember, the gospel was to the Jews first, the Gentiles second. But Cornelius would not know what to do, if Peter had not come and shared the gospel with him and his household.

Paul on his three missionary journeys, told (preach) the people of the gospel and they either responded or they did not (recall the parable of the sower Mat 13.18-23). Nowhere is recorded that people magically knew to repent and became Christians, without someone sharing the word of God with them.

Look at Act 18.24-28; Apollos, a man who had been instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in spirit, spoke and taught accurately the things of the Lord, though he knew only the baptism of John. A couple named Aquila and Priscilla heard him, they took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately. After learning about the gospel of Christ, Apollos vigorously refuted the Jews publicly, showing from the Scriptures that Jesus is the Christ. However, Apollos would not have known what to do without be told by a couple of Christians about the whole gospel.

Same thing happens in Acts 19.1-6; Paul finds some disciples, and says to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" They responded, "We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit." Paul asks to them, "Into what then were you baptized?" They responded, "Into John's baptism."

Upon hearing this Paul says, "John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus." (I'm sure Paul explained more to them, but that is not point the Holy Spirit is trying to make here) and when they heard this (the gospel of Christ), they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus, becoming Christians.

There are several of accounts people hearing the gospel call and not responding to it (the same hold true in Christ ministry from what we read after His death and resurrection there was 120 disciples, there may have been more, but only 120 are mentioned. (Acts 1:15)) Starting in Acts 6.8, a preacher by the name of Stephen had been spread the good news and some Jews called into question what he was teaching. So, Stephen went to the synagogue of the Freedmen to defend the word of God. By the time it was all done, Stephen had preached the truth and those in opposition could not refute what he was saying. In the end, the people who heard him were enraged (Act 7.54) and took him and stoned Stephen to death. This is just one of sever accounts, Paul was stoned for preaching the gospel. In the epistles the apostles warn of a time that Christians would be persecuted for believing in Jesus. So, the majority of people who hear the gospel never respond to it, and don't repent of their sinful ways.

The point of all this is that one can't believe, without first hearing. It is the hearing of the gospel, that brings about faith and faith produces believing. Without believing in the word of God one does not repent of their sins. Act 18.8; Then Crispus, the ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his household. And many of the Corinthians, hearing, believed and were baptized.

Romans 10:17; So, then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

At the end of John's gospel, he says, "but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name." (John 20:31) When we read the New Testament, we are hearing the word of God.

"All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work." (2 Timothy 3.16-17)
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