The Instigator
backwardseden
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
sillydebater
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

Do you think you deserve to die because you are gay and many of other god's absurdities? God does

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Post Voting Period
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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 6/22/2018 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 531 times Debate No: 115942
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (2)
Votes (0)

 

backwardseden

Pro

* Leviticus 20:13 can"t possibly be more clear "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them." Now here"s the NLT version ""If a man practices homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman, both men have committed a detestable act. They must both be put to death, for they are guilty of a capital offense." WOW! What a HUGE and no offense" BIG HUGE MONUMENTAL DIFFERENCE. It uses the word "homosexuality" in it. And the word "homosexuality" was not put into any bible until 1946. So what gives the right to any translator/ interpreter of any bible to COMPLETELY change what any bible has originally said to suit THEIR wants, needs and desires? AND to make matters worse" who says that their interpretations are correct? AND to make matters worse, these interpreters/ translators CHANGE the very verses of what YOUR god has said as well as what YOUR jesus has said. This is why one of the very reasons that YOUR god would ---never--- rely on text, the worst form of communication possible.
* god hates anyone that blasphemes and wants to put you to death Leviticus 24:16 "And he that blasphemeth the name of the Lord, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the Lord, shall be put to death."
* god wants you to die in his bible if you break the sabbath Exodus 31:14 "Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.", Numbers 15: 32-36 " And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. 33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation. 34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him. 35 And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses." So by your god's morals and principles, jesus should have been rightly executed for working on the sabbath. He also did not have permission of ---any--- kind from his god to change his god"s laws, thus jesus was a fake and a fraud.
* god issues death warrants on those that curse at their parents (they are probably children) Exodus 21:17 "And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death., Leviticus 20:9 "For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.", Mark 7:10 "For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:, Matthew 15:4 "For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death."
* god wants to put you to death in his bible if you commit adultery Leviticus 20:10 "And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death."

Do not hand me that crap like "god is the creator of all life so he can do whatever he wants which would mean killing babies and children." If you believe as such, then you are as immoral as your god truly is, you have proven to the outside world that you have no genuine friends or loved ones in which is a HUGE red flag, and what do I mean by genuine? Those that will go way way wayyyyyyy out of their way to help you out in time of dire need and never ask you a single question, you deserve it, you will die alone. You also have no idea as to what the difference is from right from wrong, good from evil as you are evil, left from right, up from down, east from west and north from south.

So here"s the meat of it Do you believe that Is hating gays and wanting to stone them to death evil? Y____? N____? Is killing evil? Y____? N____? Is slavery evil? Y____? N____? Is rape evil? Y____? N____? Is deliberate genocide evil? Y____? N____? Is hating children evil? Y____? N____? Is simply cursing at your parents whoever does the cursing a warrant for their deaths? Y____? N____? Is believing in different gods a warrant for death? Y____? N____? Is not believing in YOUR god worthy of being stoned to death? Y____? N____? All of these your god has freely admitted to and participated in and is in YOUR bible. Some of the verses have not been mentioned as yet, but soon will be. Of course these laws that the christian god has come up with are completely absurd and ridiculous and thus proves that the god of the bible cannot be followed.

"When you start making excuses for atrocities you have removed yourself from ANY valid discussion on morals. When you say "yes the bible says you can own slaves but" well now you"re contradicting yourself because before I was asking if you thought the bible was accurately representing the mind of god, the will of god. You"ve got this conflicted mess of contradictions and you"ve found a way to rationalize them. You"ve gone and looked at them and said "boy that one really sounds bad, BUT that"s what Israel was doing that"s not what god was doing. So let me ask you this" do you believe that there"s an all knowing all powerful fun loving god who has an important message for humanity and he is so completely inept that his best attempts at communicating to people managed to convey the exact opposite message of what you think he meant? Now like are you the one who got it right? And all the people who authored the holy book and got you started that they managed to get it wrong? Is your god such a bumbling buffoon that he cannot state "thou shalt not own somebody as another human being?" or "please don"t rape the people and pillage the villages around you"" and he managed to communicate so poorly that it got written down as "Thou shalt be able to own other people as property and oh by the way go over there and kill everybody kill everything except for the young virgins." Its asinine. You cannot reconcile this." Matt Dillahunty

RULES: Prove that your god of the bible has a moral compass of love, care, peace, kindness, harmony etc in which case the verses above and god's absurd immorality would not exist.

dsjpk5 will not be allowed to vote in the voting process.
sillydebater

Con

I accept this debate, and thank backwardseden for the opportunity.

My challenge in this debate: Prove that my god of the bible has a moral compass of love, care, peace, kindness, harmony etc in which case the verses above and god's absurd immorality would not exist.

I am a Christian, meaning I am a follower of Christ and Christ's teachings. Christ taught love, care, peace, kindness and harmony. My God of the bible commanded this: "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind" and "Love your neighbor as yourself". (1) (2) The gospels lay out a very strong case for my God being a loving God, and I will be happy to provide more instances of this in the upcoming rounds if needed.

I am not a follower of the god in the old testament. Being Christian does not mean you have to believe the whole bible is truth. It does not mean that you have to believe or accept everything in the bible. The bible itself was assembled by humans, and was not formed until hundreds of years after Jesus' death. (3) Humans made decisions on what books to include in the bible and which ones to exclude. Jesus never said that this future collection of historical and yet-to-be-written books was the definitive word of God. In fact, he said the opposite, specifically that only through learning and following the example of Jesus can anyone truly learn about God: "No one comes to the Father except through me." (4)

Thus, the verses you quoted, while interesting historical insights into Jewish history, are not the words of my God of the bible. My God of the bible is the one depicted in the gospels, one of love, care, peace, kindness and compassion.

1. https://www.biblegateway.com...
2. https://www.biblegateway.com...
3. https://en.wikipedia.org...
4. https://www.biblegateway.com...
Debate Round No. 1
backwardseden

Pro

Well first of all, prove that your christ even existed, in which there is no proof of this, and most certainly even less there is absolutely no proof that god gave this christ any powers to break his laws from the OT and yet this christ did in fact do tat so that means that christ is a fraud and a fake, that is if you believe in god from the OT and onto the NT. And even worse god was completely immoral in the OT, so POOF he is going to change and suddenly become moral in the NT? Now pay close attention to these videos"
http://www.youtube.com... - jesus wasn"t jesus (Aron Ra)
http://www.youtube.com... - The True Core of the jesus Myth (Christopher Hitchens)
http://www.youtube.com... - Did jesus Exist?
http://www.youtube.com... - Why christianity is Unreasonable (Richard Carrier)
http://www.youtube.com... - Biggest Lie - The fourth gospel ("The first striking revision in the 4th gospel is that the ministry of jesus has ballooned out from from one year to three. The writers not only make a reference not only from one but to three distinct passover festivals. Now was this just a tradition that some early christians held to a three year ministry and others to a one year ministry? Can anyone honestly maintain that whole dialogues could be remembered word for word for many decades and yet believers have no common agreement whether these words were said during one year or during three years?") Um duh. Do you REALLY THINK jesus existed?
http://www.youtube.com... - The Gospel According to Carrier (Richard Carrier states jesus may have possibly existed, but scrap all the mythology)
http://www.youtube.com... - Proving the Historicity of Jesus? Tracie and David
http://www.youtube.com... - Stephanie Thomason vs Matt Dillahunty, or how not to debate an Atheist! (skip to the 7:00 mark!!!) Oh this one is good and Pro is the caller with his furry tongue.
http://www.youtube.com... - What did jesus do for you?

Oh and oh yeah we, that means you and I, are NOT paying any attention to that pig christ who was a false messiah, who lied several times in YOUR bible and broke god"s word such as working on the sabbath in which required the death penalty, in which you in no possible follow his teachings, and trust me, you do NOT want to dig deep into that because it will ruin your beliefs IF and only IF you are remotely intelligent and have an education.
Now it is so blatantly point---blank---obvious that in no possible way have you read your bible AT ALL in which YOUR god would NEVER use text is the first place, the worst form of communication possible, PE-IR-OD.

So once again prove that your "god", who cares about that drab named "christ" who was clearly false and fraudulent, of the bible has a moral compass of love, care, peace, kindness, harmony etc in which case the verses above and god's absurd immorality would not exist.

Now here"s another video for you to watch which proves you 100$% wrong. Watch it. It will clear up all the questions you have. (The last video)
http://www.youtube.com... - But That"s the Old Testament
sillydebater

Con

"Well first of all, prove that your christ even existed"
There is significant evidence supporting the fact that Jesus was a person who lived approximately 2,000 years ago. Not only is this from Christian documentation, but also from Jewish and Roman documentation as well. There are negative accounts of Jesus, calling him a sorcerer and a scoundrel, and some that accuse his followers of perpetuating a destructive superstition. However, there are no known accounts of anybody in that time questioning his existence. (1) Of course, I can't prove Christ existed, no more than I can prove Socrates did. Even if there is strong evidence for each's life and death, there's always the possibility that either could have been conjured up by either those in their eras, or by people since. Regardless, it doesn't mean that their reported teachings can't have a profound and potentially life-changing impact to one's view of the universe, especially when combined with one's personal experience in living out those teachings.

"Now pay close attention to these videos"
No, I don't have time to wade through videos in order to discover your arguments. I will acknowledge and answer any arguments you make in the text of your debate. You may of course reference videos of authoritative sources in support of your debate arguments, but the meat of your arguments need to be written out.

"Can anyone honestly maintain that whole dialogues could be remembered word for word for many decades and yet believers have no common agreement whether these words were said during one year or during three years?"
I do not maintain that. The four main gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John) were likely written anywhere between 30 and 80 years after Jesus' death. (2) Before their writing, the stores were passed between people both orally, and through written collections of miracle stories, parables and sayings. Naturally, over a span of decades, the details of these stories would change between tellings, and details would start to differ between accounts. What we have today are the stories passed down over that time, and are incomplete and at least somewhat inaccurate representations of the events that actually happened.

All of that doesn't matter. The teaching of Confucius and Socrates both were not written down until after their deaths, are likely inaccurate accounts of events and quotations, yet that did not stop them from becoming extremely influential to the world. For example, the Socratic method remains one of the foundations of science as we know it today. Similarly, the fact that what the bible tells about Jesus may not be 100% factually correct does nothing to counter the truth that the teachings we have today can still provide an example of a good way to live, and a way to make the world a better place.

"christ ... lied several times in YOUR bible"
Examples please.

"So once again prove that your "god", who cares about that drab named "christ" who was clearly false and fraudulent, of the bible has a moral compass of love, care, peace, kindness, harmony etc in which case the verses above and god's absurd immorality would not exist."
I don't think you understood the point that I was trying to make in Round 1, perhaps because I wasn't explicit about it. I'll be more clear: My God *is* Christ. Not the god of the Old Testament. Not even anything outside of Christ in the New Testament. To argue about anything else in the bible but Christ is to talk about something other than my God, which is outside the rules of this debate.

You say Christ was "clearly false and fraudulent". That sounds like a good opening for an argument on your side. Now back it up with evidence and reasoning (and not just a link to a video).

As for my side, I'll leave this here as more proof that Christ has a moral compass of love: Jesus commanded, "You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven." (3) There is no stronger moral compass of love than this, to love all humanity, even people who hate you and hurt you. If we could all live up to this teaching, we would stop the cycle of hurt and retribution, and the world would be a better place indeed.

1. https://www.theguardian.com...
2. https://en.wikipedia.org...(Matthew,_Mark,_Luke_and_John)
3. https://www.biblegateway.com...
Debate Round No. 2
backwardseden

Pro

Well by the laws of duhsville "No, I don't have time to wade through videos in order to discover your arguments." Then no I don't have the time to wade through your unproved idiocies and discover anything you have to say. Bye.
sillydebater

Con

I am sorry to hear that. I was really looking forward to hearing your thoughts on the matter, and why you believe Jesus is a liar and fraud. If you ever change your mind, let me know. I'll be happy to restart or continue this debate anytime.

Before parting, I do want to say that I hope you start putting your own personal arguments and reasoning into debates instead of relying on youtube videos to make your points for you. There is so much growth that can come from formulating your arguments, putting your beliefs out there for others to test, and then defending or amending what you believe. I feel like I've already gained some new insight just in our first two rounds. But this growth can only happen if the arguments come from within, and are not simply someone else's.

Parroting others' youtube arguments is no better than Christians who just believe what the church tells them to. Without independent thought that you allow to be tested in open scrutiny, one is merely a mindless puppet for the church/atheist youtubers. I hope you don't fall into that trap.

As this may be our final round, I will finish by sharing the example of Christ's love and kindness that means the most to me:
On the night he was to be betrayed, Jesus took water and a towel and washed his disciples' feet. Although he was revered as their teacher, master and Lord, Jesus took on the job of the lowest of servants, performing one of the lowest of services. I find it almost impossible to imagine the president or queen doing something similar today.

"When he had finished washing their feet, he put on his clothes and returned to his place. 'Do you understand what I have done for you?' he asked them. 'You call me "Teacher" and "Lord," and rightly so, for that is what I am. Now that I, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also should wash one another"s feet. I have set you an example that you should do as I have done for you.'" (1) Jesus was not a being of power. Jesus was not a being of judgement. Jesus was a being of service, for he "did not come to be served, but to serve". (2) (3)

Therefore, to be Christian is to serve others. While there are many who use Christianity for righteousness, to justify a behavior or belief, or gain power from the masses, these are not real Christians. They only use Christianity to further their own selfish purpose. Real Christians do as Christ did, they live to help others, and give their money, time and talents to serve others who are in need. Jesus has a moral compass of love, care and kindness, and whenever someone shows that love, the legacy of Jesus' life is continued.

Best wishes.

1. https://www.biblegateway.com...
2. https://www.biblegateway.com...
3. https://www.biblegateway.com...
Debate Round No. 3
backwardseden

Pro

"I am sorry to hear that. I was really looking forward to hearing your thoughts on the matter, and why you believe Jesus is a liar and fraud." Oh absolutely 100% were you not looking forward to ANYTHING I had to say. Not one f--king word. I really hate it when people like you flat out lie. Because if you cared as to what I had to say, then you would have watched the videos in which I do not have the time nor effort to type up at least an 3 million characters, in which case this debate would only take up 50,000. AND YOU DO NOT HAVE THE TIME NOR EFFORT TO READ 50,000 CHARACTERS IN THE FIRST PLACE!!!!!! As watching videos takes up one helluva lot less effort, may not take up less time though. But you ruined yourself with such stupidity. Now if you do not have the time nor effort to watch the videos, in which contains a whole ton of more information than you could ever present within your f--king lifetime, then that's not my problem, that's entirely yours. Oh but wait, its perfectly OK that you present me with truly idiotic links that you 100% expect me to look at in which biblegateway is one of the absolute worst websites as far as christianity is concerned and is amazingly biased. So guess what snookums, since you except me to look at these links as your evidence, and you will not look at the videos as my evidence, that 100% makes you a contradictory hypocrite just like your god in which you cannot even prove exists. So once again duhsville, I have no time nor effort to pay any attention to what you have to say. PE-IR-OD.
sillydebater

Con

I honestly do want to hear what you think and believe. But I want to hear *your* thoughts, not the thoughts of someone else. Watching a video on YouTube only tells me what that person thinks. It tells me nothing about you. And to say "I just believe exactly what they say" is to not have any independent thought at all. It's giving up your right to think for yourself, and instead just following someone else like a sheep, (which ironically is an often-used criticism of people who are religious).

Here's a simple test you can do to see if you really believe something yourself, or if you are just blindly following someone else: Write down what you believe, and then write down your reasons for why you believe it. Do this all without looking at any of the videos for help or reference. Whatever you write is what you truly believe, and it's that that I'm interested in learning and debating with you. You don't need 3 million or 50,000 characters.

Once you're done, you can then look at the videos and compare them to what you wrote. Maybe there's an idea you like and you can incorporate that into your beliefs. Or, maybe you find something where your belief differs from one of the videos. Understanding why you differ will help you understand yourself. Whatever you do, make your beliefs your own. Own them, take pride in them and test them in the realm of public discourse. That's what this site is all about. By defending your own ideas, you can learn their strengths and weaknesses and your beliefs can become stronger and more robust.

Or, if you don't want to do that, then at least show that my arguments are wrong. By the end of this round, I will have presented four pieces of evidence to back my case that, in the bible, Jesus preaches a morality based on love and kindness. So far, you've said my arguments are idiotic, but have not provided any justification why. Provide arguments that my examples are incorrect, or provide other examples of Jesus's teachings that are based on the opposite of love and kindness. Of course, I'm picking the passages that most clearly back my case. There are many other passages that are not so clear cut that I'm sure you could use as a basis for your case.

In regards to, "its perfectly OK that you present me with truly idiotic links that you 100% expect me to look at": in no way do I need or expect you to open those links. As with any good debate, and in accordance with the conventions of this site (1), the links are simply citations listing where in the bible I got each of my examples. Please go ahead and ignore the links. Everything I want to say is contained in the text of the debate, and none of the links contain any arguments at all.

This round, I will show how Jesus commands us to help the poor, and he chastises the greedy. He makes it clear that one is not to worship money: "No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money." (2) "Watch out! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; life does not consist in an abundance of possessions." (3) "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God." (4)

So, instead of working to become ever richer, we are to use our gifts to help those less fortunate. "Sell your possessions and give to the poor." (5) "Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you." (6) Jesus makes it clear that it's not just the act of giving that is important, but why we are giving. "Beware of practicing your righteousness before other people in order to be seen by them, for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven. Thus, when you give to the needy, sound no trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be praised by others. ... When you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret." (7) By taking care of the poor, that's how one is to truly worship God. (8)

Caring, Kindness, Love. That's what Jesus' message is about.

1) http://www.debate.org...
2) https://www.biblegateway.com...
3) https://www.biblegateway.com...
4) https://www.biblegateway.com...
5) https://www.biblegateway.com...
6) https://www.biblegateway.com...
7) https://www.biblegateway.com...
8) https://www.biblegateway.com...
Debate Round No. 4
backwardseden

Pro

I don't pay attention to contradictory hypocrites like you. If you expect me to look at the links you presented, and you cannot take a look at the videos I presented because how many times do I have to repeat it THEY ARE ALL CORRECT, this debate is over. Now its not my problem that you cannot look at rock solid evidence. That's yours. And it is within the typical christian bloodline to totally ignore evidence especially when slapped in the face with it because he knows---he's---wrong. Regardless, I'm certainly not looking at anything from biblegateway. This is supposed to be an intelligent educated debate. And you have the f--king nerve to present me with ANY links to look at? Much less 8 of them? GET---THE---F---K---OUT---OF---HERE.
sillydebater

Con

I am seriously thinking you didn't read any of what I wrote last round. If you had, you would have seen that I literally said that "in no way do I expect you to open those links. ... Please go ahead an ignore the links. Everything I want to say is contained in the text of the debate". It seems you are not here for actual debate, but are more interested in personal attacks and throwing out expletives. I feel sorry for you, for if you continue to act like this in other debates, you'll never really experience any of the benefit this site has to offer.

Since there seems to be little chance my opponent will read this, I'll instead turn and address any potential voters. The rules of the debate were laid out by Pro in the first round: "Prove that your god of the bible has a moral compass of love, care, peace, kindness, harmony etc in which case the verses above and god's absurd immorality would not exist."

Although Pro led with arguments showing the god depicted in the old testament supported some abhorrent behavior, I countered, stating that my god of the bible (as specified in the rules) is not the god of the old testament. My god of the bible is Jesus, who said none of those things.

In the second round, Pro linked some videos, mostly questioning the existence of Jesus and whether the story of Jesus was historical fact. Pro also asserted that Jesus was "clearly false and fraudulent" without providing any justification for that claim, and tried to steer the debate back to the god of the old testament. I responded saying that "my god of the bible" is Jesus. There is no other and talking of any other god is outside the rules of the debate. I accepted the fact that the bible is human written and is not a perfect document. I showed that, although one cannot prove Jesus' existence (although there is strong evidence for it), that fact is irrelevant. I gave the example that we cannot prove Socrates or Confucius existed, but it is still possible for even an inaccurate of fictional account of someone's teachings to have a profound influence on a person's life and world-view.

Addressing the objective of the rules, I provided four examples of Jesus' teachings that show he professed a morality of love, caring and kindness in the bible:
1) Love one another
2) Love your enemies
3) Serve your fellow humans in humility
4) Give to the poor without boasting

I was planning on providing one more example on self-sacrifice this round, however, Pro has not challenged any of my previous four examples, so I will let my argument stand on those.

Instead of debating the points I raised, Pro's arguments have devolved into name calling and using expletives. I have done my best to treat Pro with respect throughout this debate, however my opponent has unfortunately not offered me the same courtesy. I close this debate confident that I have presented the stronger case, in a manner fitting the spirit of this site. I ask for your vote.

Thank you.
Debate Round No. 5
2 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Posted by sillydebater 3 years ago
sillydebater
Very cool, primeministerJoshua812. I know there are people who would argue that's a contradiction, but I disagree with them. Christ never said anything about sexual orientation or preference. He did, however instruct us to love one another, and love our neighbour as ourselves.
Posted by primeministerJoshua812 3 years ago
primeministerJoshua812
I am openly Bisexual and a Christian.
No votes have been placed for this debate.

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