The Instigator
Aileen3310
Con (against)
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The Contender
FedeAD
Pro (for)
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Does Christianity make sense? (Pt 2)

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 3/10/2018 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 839 times Debate No: 110518
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (12)
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Aileen3310

Con

I am a teenager who is currently an Atheist (I belong to an Atheist family) But I know there is a God out there. I was somewhere in between accepting Islam or Christianity... But after my last debate, (Does Christianity make sense?) I think I've lost faith in accepting Christianity slightly, and I am slightly closer to accepting Islam. But if someone can answer my objections to Christianity were I cannot deny further then I will gladly embrace this religion.

Note: This debate is not meant to be offensive! If anyone feels offended by anything I say them I'm really sorry, as I don't mean to hurt anyone.
FedeAD

Pro

Hello, how are you?

My name is Fede, I am a Catholic from Mexico, I like the fact that you are curious about these things and try to find answers!
I do not have all the answers and just like you I ask questions and try to learn every day, so maybe I can help you a little bit, if not then we will both learn something new.

First I am very curious about your story, how did you find out God exists? Why did you think about joining Islam or Christianity?

And of course, the reason we are having this talk, what are your objections to Christianity?

I hope you are doing great! Always stay curious!

Fede
Debate Round No. 1
Aileen3310

Con

Hi, thanks for accepting my debate.
I have been doubting Atheism for a while now, as I know that the world could never have created its self. Take DNA for example. It's like a book, a book for life. It's extraordinary; The most complex and detailed thing I know. So I ask myself: Who wrote this amazing book? Do I really believe a book wrote its self? I don't. So, therefore, I know that there must have been a God to write the book! I have many other objections to Atheism, and I don't feel as if its the right religion. I sort of feel like a magnet is pulling me away from the religion I was born into... It's complicated.

Anyway, here is one of my objections to Christianity:
Christians believe that God gave them the religious law to follow in order to live a good life and go to heaven. There are many Bible verses telling people to obey the law, such as this one:
"And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is God; but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." -Matthew 19:17

But this becomes bit of a problem, as Paul said the religious law is a curse in the book of Galatians:
"Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law..." -Galatians 3:13
"For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse." -Galatians 3:10

So if Jesus said to follow the law, who is St Paul to call it a curse?
FedeAD

Pro

Hi Aileen, great to hear from you!

I find it really impressive that you reached those conclussions! Congratulations! Your story is very interesting to me, as I told you before you strike me as a curious person that is willing to find answers to the big questions in life, I really advise you to always keep searching for answers, always stay curious!

Now let's get to the subject at hand, boy is your question good! I had to do quite a bit of research, but here is what I found out:

I want to start off by telling you that you are absolutelly right on your statement " if Jesus said to follow the law, who is St Paul to call it a curse?", as a Catholic I think the same thing: Jesus is the truth, so no one can contradict him really, be it St Paul or anyone else.
So, is St Paul then a bad follower of Christ? Contradicting his words? I would say no! Let's look at the context in which Paul wrote his letter to the Galatians:

Paul had visited the Galatians and told them about Jesus Christ, they accepted the Gospel, yet 7 years later they were doubting it and were thinking of returning to the belief that the Law of Moses (this is the Law Paul is talking about in his letter) is the only mean to salvation, which is what jewish people believe. Paul is unable to personally visit them and correct this belief, so he writes them a letter.

At this point you might be thinking, "What is wrong with just following the Law?"

17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
(Mathew 5:17)

20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
(Mathew 5:20)

So, why is Paul calling the Law a curse then if Jesus tells us to follow it? Because it is only fulfilled in Jesus Christ! This means that without Jesus you are doomed to fail at it, that is why it is a curse, it is only through faith in Jesus that you can fulfill it. In other words: The Law is indeed a curse if it is followed without faith in Jesus.
As Paul himself says in his letter to the Romans: Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes. (Romans 10:4)

Does this mean that we don't need any Law then? Absolutely not!

17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
(Mathew 5:17)

Jesus is not against the Law, he is for it. But he is against ONLY following the law without faith in him, only Jesus can show us how to fulfill the law since Jesus IS the Law.

So tu sum it up: Why does Paul call the Law a curse in his letter? Because it is a curse to follow the Law without faith in Jesus Christ, since it is only fulfilled in him. Only through Jesus can we know HOW to fulfill the Law.

I hope my answer makes sense and helps a little, I hope it is not confusing, keep in mind english is not my first language! ;)

Anyway, I am really looking forward to your reply, you raise very interesting questions, I admit I didn't know the answer at first! But through some research on catholic websites I found it, you made me learn something new today! I hope you have a great day, looking forward to hearing from you soon.

Fede
Debate Round No. 2
Aileen3310

Con

Thank you for your answer! I've asked a few Christians about this matter, and they all came up with some poor excuse about mysteries or faith. Your answer is a lot more accurate and believable.

Anyway, here are two of my other objections:
1. Christians believe that God created Adam an Eve, and Eve fooled Adam into sinning. For this, Christians believe we have all inherited an evil nature that can only be forgiven with a sacrifice. So God sent his only begotten son to bear the burden of the sin for people, so they may be saved. Also, all of Adam and Eve's descendants bore the burden of a sin they did not even commit. Right?

But Galatians 6:5 states: "For every man shall bear his own burden."
Why didn't God take his own advice?

2. Christians believe Jesus was the only pure person at that time. So no other person would have done for the sacrifice. In Job 14:4 it says: "Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? No one." So if Jesus was born out of a human woman, and, being one of Adam's descendants, she was also sinful. So how could pure, clean being have come out of a sinful being?

In my last debate on this topic, my opponent said that the Virgen Mary was not sinful, and was born pure. But, if we look at Job 14:4 again we can see that that is impossible.
FedeAD

Pro

Again, great questions! You really seem to know a lot about Christianity!

1. I will try to answer it to the best of my knowledge, again you quote the letter of St Paul to the Galatians: "for each one should carry their own load." (Galatians 6:5)

Want to make it even more complicated? Just a couple of lines above he says this: "Carry each other"s burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ." (Galatians 6:2)

Has Paul gone crazy? What on Earth are we supposed to do? Carry our own burden or carry each other's burdens?I would say, just as Paul said to the Galatians, we are supposed to do both!

We as Catholics believe that, as Paul rightly points out: " each one should carry their own load", what does this mean? It means that we get to heaven through our own decisions, not through the decisions of others, just like you fail an exam because you didn't study, not because your friend didn't study, what your friend did or didn't do is meaningless to your result, it is exactly the same for salvation.

But what about carrying each other's burden? We are called by Jesus not to be greedy, individualistic, etc. On the contrary, we are called by Jesus to love each other and care for each other, so we should also help others carry their burden! However (and this is the part where it gets tricky) we can't carry their burden for them, we can only HELP them carry their burden themselves, how? Giving support, love, good advice, etc. Think about the school exam again, you can't get an A for your friend, she has to take her own exam, but you can certainly HELP her get an A, how? You can study with her, encourage her, help her understand some topic she didn't quite get, etc.

So both things Paul advices the Galatians are correct, he correctly points out that we are to carry our burden ourselves, however, Jesus calls us to do even more, to love our neighbour and do our best to help him carry his burden without forgeting to carry our own!

"But what about original sin commited by Adam and Eve? Are we supposed to carry that burden too?" The answer, as you rightly point out, is NO. Jesus carried this burden for us in the cross, what Paul is talking about in his letter to the Galatians is personal sin, not original sin, we are not supposed to carry the sin of Adam and Eve since God carried this himself for us, in fact Jesus is the only one who can carry the burden of original sin for us.

"But why did Jesus have to pay for original sin? Shouldn't it die with Adam and Eve?" Not really, just like a monetary debt is inherited, original sin is inherited too, and this question is very complicated, I don't know if I can fully answer it but I will try my best:
Adam and Eve were indeed the first human beings, and being the first themselves they were pure, however they became impure when they commited the first sin (original sin), and as you rightly point out: "Who can bring what is pure from the impure? No one!"(Job 14:4) Thus we are all born impure because the source from which we come is impure, yet in order to get to heaven we must be pure... but we are born impure!! how can we become pure again?? It is kinda like if you were making pancakes with a broken mold, all of the pancakes will turn out just like the mold, broken.
God is caught with his back against the wall here, His justice demands that a price should be paid for this act of disobedience that affects all of us since we come from the same "mold", yet there is a problem, no one of us humans is completely obedient, not even one of us is perfect, we are born impure (original sin). So who can pay the price of this desobedience?
Only God himself, which is why he is just and merciful, he didn't just ignore the debt (which would be unjust), he paid it for us (which is merciful).

So in summary, it goes like this: God is the source of Adam and Eve, thus they are pure, however they sin and become impure, thus making all following humans impure since all following humans come from an impure source, therefore no one can gain heaven since one must be pure to get there. What does God do? He can't just forget about Adam and Eve's sin because he is just, but at the same time he can't just let us all go to hell because He loves us; So He bears the burden of this impurity for us in the cross. So, since God bears the burden of this impurity for us, now we just have to "bear our own burden" as St Paul rightly points out.

What if Adam and Eve hadn't sinned? Well, probably someone else would have sinned along the line, so Jesus would have to save us anyway!

2. There is a big flaw in your question, we do not consider Jesus to be merely a "pure person", He is God incarnate, and therefore He is pure, we could say He is His own source. He does not descend from Adam and Eve, He created them, and even though he came to the world through Mary, He was not conceived by her, He existed before Mary did.

Yet Jesus is also human, and you rightly point out "Who can bring what is pure from the impure? No one!"(Job 14:4), so how can He come to the world if no woman is pure enough to bring him? I must say your last opponent was right, Mary was conceived without original sin (the Inmaculate Conception). But... why? Jesus is pure, but he also needed a pure "channel" to get into this world. So Mary was preserved from original sin by God himself, why? Because she was chosen to bring God into the world and, most importantly, because she accepted this mission.

And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. (Luke 1:28)

She is not just a regular woman, she was chosen by God, favoured by Him in order to bring Jesus to the world and save all humanity. I would explain it like this: Jesus needs to come to the world to rid humanity from original sin, but there is no pure "channel" to get here since we all have original sin and are impure, so humanity is doomed unless He suspends original sin in one of us (Mary) in order to come to the world and save all of us!

Could He have come to the world in some other way? For sure! Did He need the consent of Mary to save us? Not really. But why did He do it this way?

56. The Father of mercies willed that the incarnation should be preceded by the acceptance of her who was predestined to be the mother of His Son, so that just as a woman contributed to death, so also a woman should contribute to life. (Lumen gentium, 56)

So, just as sin came to humans through a woman's disobedience, salvation came to us through a woman's obedience.

I hope this explanation is understandable, this topic you have raised is very complex! This is my first time using this website and I am not sure if there will be more rounds to this debate or not, yet I am very interested in your stoy and the questions you bring to the table, I would like to give you my e-mail so you can ask me any questions you like and debate at any time, also I would love to see how this story unfolds! If you find my arguments good or not and if you convert to Christianity or to Islam.

My e-mail is: ropacordo@gmail .com (without spacing) I hope we can keep in touch!

Let me just give you one last piece of advice, even though you may think differently from your parents, never forget to honour them and love them while you search for God, like St Josemaria said: "You will be a good child of Christ in the same measure as you are a good child of your parents."

My best wishes, and God bless you,
Fede
Debate Round No. 3
12 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by mosc 2 years ago
mosc
C/P: "Also, All of Adam and Eve's descendants bore the burden of a sin they did not even commit. Right? "

All the seed of Adam (1) what does the idea of the human soul mean? Adam received a warning that on the day that he ate from the Tree of knowledge of good and evil that he would die. But Adam did not die on that very day! The Snake was correct, It said to Eve that she could eat of the fruit and be as God. God lives beyond a single generation.

Come the floods in the days of Noach, 10 generations following the exile of Adam from Eden, The soul of Adam died in one day! (2) The soul of Adam experienced g'lut/exile. G'lut/Exile represents a form of death. Just as life has a none specific meaning which includes the generations of ones' children, So too death. Death has a none specific broad meaning which includes a person loosing all contact with his family. This idea of death opens the realms of spirituality and morality.

This interpretation its the way of the Jewish people as opposed to the Xtian and Muslim religions.
Posted by mosc 2 years ago
mosc
C/P: " So God sent his only begotten son to bear the burden of the sin for people, So they may be saved. "

The Pauline theory of original sin supports the messiah human sacrifice theology. But as i have already shown an alternate theory. . . This strongly indicates the possibility that the entire new testament represents a huge fraud. Perverting human sacrifice into bearing the sins of the world crap this theory simply does not hold water.

You can not make a silk purse from a pigs ear. You can not "convert" the human sacrifice abomination into making atonement for original sin.
Posted by mosc 2 years ago
mosc
C/P: "So if Jesus said to follow the law, Who is St Paul to call it a curse? "

The agenda of Paul - to promote Civil War within Rome.
The agenda of the Gospels - to project an imaginary mythical person as messiah.

Prior to the 3 major Jewish revolts, 25% of the Romans had embraced Judaism. The objective of this counterfeit faith, To replace the polytheism of the Greko-Roman Gods with a semi-Monotheism. Eventually Caesar converted to this new faith.
Posted by mosc 2 years ago
mosc
C/P: "Christians believe that God gave them the religious law to follow in order to live a good life and go to heaven. There are many Bible verses telling people to obey the law, Such as this one:"And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, That is God; but if thou wilt enter into life, Keep the commandments. "

Commandments? Since when did none Jews have any obligation what so ever to obey the commandments? !
Posted by canis 3 years ago
canis
Here is another link : Non.www.life
Posted by Lex132 3 years ago
Lex132
Hi Aileen,
You have so many great questions. I want to encourage you to keep asking and finding the answers to all your questions. You are very smart to be asking these questions. I would like to share a source that helped me answer some of my own personal questions about the Bible and it is https://billygraham.org... and it gives a lot of answers to questions with bible verses and an explanation. You can type in a question topic in the search bar and get answers. If you can't find the answer to your question you can email them and they'll reply to you. It helped me so I wanted to pass it on. :)
Posted by missmedic 3 years ago
missmedic
Rennold, so what is faith then?
Posted by canis 3 years ago
canis
I am, as everyone else..100 % sure that when people talk about god(s) they have no idea what they are talking about.."Your god = what you can imagine..Nothing more...Nothing less.."
So does islam make sense. Well it programms your imagination to function in a certain way. That makes sence to people who were programmed in that certain way.
"atheist is the one who denies the existence of a supreme being, or a Creator, of the God, "..Wrong they do not denie anything..
Posted by Rennold 3 years ago
Rennold
You say that you're an atheist, and then you say that you know there's a God. First, you don't know it. Revelations were sent down to the mankind, and given to the prophets (like Moses, Prophet Muhammad etc) and we believe, yes we believe in God, but we cannot "know" something, as we haven't seen it, or know more about it.
So, when you believe that there's a God, it doesn't make you an atheist, because an atheist is the one who denies the existence of a supreme being, or a Creator, of the God, so even if you belong to an atheist family, it all depends on your faith.
Meanwhile, you're stepping closer to the religion. Abrahamic religions aren't different, because they contain the same message, and the same faith, but there are made very misconceptions and mistakes.
By the way, I'd suggest you the true faith, Islam; closer to the God, you'll be!
Posted by canis 3 years ago
canis
I am, as everyone else..100 % sure that when people talk about god(s) they have no idea what they are talking about.."Your god = what you can imagine..Nothing more...Nothing less.."
So does christianity make sense. Well it programms your imagination to function in a certain way. That makes sence to people who were programmed in that certain way.
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