The Instigator
conservative.justice
Pro (for)
The Contender
BlackeBirde
Con (against)

Does God Exist?

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/21/2018 Category: Philosophy
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Debating Period
Viewed: 408 times Debate No: 114142
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (1)
Votes (0)

 

conservative.justice

Pro

Pro: God does exist
Con: God does not exist

Round 1: Rules and Intro
Round 2: Openeing Statement
Round 3: Rebuttel
Round 4: Closing Statement

Any rebuttels in round 4 will be ignored
Any arguments in round 1 will be ignored

Thank you for debating me.
BlackeBirde

Con

Looking forward to the debate.

I should start by clarifying that I'm an agnostic atheist. That is to say that I presuppose the non-existence of God and reject claims of his existence as insufficiently substantiated.

Whenever you're ready.
Debate Round No. 1
conservative.justice

Pro

As a man of science, I completely understand that nothing can come from nothing. One atom cannot create an atom from nothing. Humans do not create chairs, we only manipulate wood and nails. If you have a vast void of absolutely nothing, there is nothing that can possibly come out of that. Nothing can come from nothing.

Nothing can come from nothing
+
There is something
=
Something must exist outside of creation that has power of creation, which created everything
We call this thing God

OR
The universe is eternal
The universe is not eternal though. The Big Bang Theroy which is the most accepted theroy of the creation of the universe States that the universe is not eternal and had a specific starting point, and will have specific ending pointing. Therefore there must have to be something that created the universe. We call this thing God.

God is outside of creation, He is the one who was never created, but is eternal. He is not formed by anything, He just IS. He created everything out of nothing and has control over existence.

That is the simplest proof of God"s existence. That is not talking about if God is good or bad, or if the Christian God or Muslim God is right or wrong, it is only that there is God
BlackeBirde

Con

One thing I should have checked first is that we both have a common understanding of the word "God". Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm going to assume you subscribe to the common understanding of the God of classical theism, one that can most simply be described as an all-perfect being.

I aim to prove that the existence of an all-perfect God is incompatible with the existence of suffering in the world.

I'll begin by deriving some characteristics of God. It is self evident that an all-perfect being would at least posses the following three qualities:
- Benevolence
- Omnipotence
- Omniscience
If it were true that such a being exists then suffering most certainly would not as an omniscient being would know of the suffering, a benevolent being would have more than enough love for those suffering to want to stop it, and an omnipotent being would have the power to stop it.
So the existence of suffering and of a being with all three of these traits are not compatible, the most perfect being must be missing at least one of these traits to explain why suffering is allowed to continue. This most perfect being would therefore be imperfect and, given the definition of God as an all-perfect being, He could not exist.

It is evident that suffering does in fact exist in the world, both natural and human. Tsunami's that kill thousands, or the torture and murder of millions of Jews in the 20th century, are examples of both of these. This being the case, God cannot exist.
Debate Round No. 2
conservative.justice

Pro

You are forgetting about one other characteristic, omni-presence
.
.
As for the problem of suffering, the syllogism goes like this:

Evil and suffering exist
+
God is all-powerful and has the power to stop evil and he is benevolent and wants everything to be good
=
God either is evil in himself, or he is not all powerful

Looking at this syllogism, it is perfectly logical for their not to be a God because if God was evil he would not allow any joy or happiness at all, which he does allow. Anytime you feel happiness in the slightest, you can logically de deuce that if there is a God he is not all evil.
So God cannot be evil therefore he must be not all powerful in which case he cannot be omnipresent and he could not have created the universe. Since nothing can come from nothing the universe cannot exist. There must be something else going on outside of our human knowledge.
.
But I propose a different idea which is the premise of the above syllogism is faulty by nature. Evil does not exist, but it is in fact just a lack of goodness
For Example:
Cold does not actually exist, the laws of physics tell us, it is only the lack of heat, you cannot add cold, only take away heat
Darkness does not actually exist, it is only the lack of light. You cannot have a flashdark, you can only take away light
Evil does not exist, it is only the lack of goodness or misplaced goodness

Even Hitler, when he was murdering 7 Million Jews thought he was doing the right thing, he did not do it to be evil, but because he had misplaced goodness. He was doing what he thought best for a greater German Reich.
Stalin, when he systematically starved Polish people and his own citizens did it for the idea that sacrificing must be made in order for a greater Communist State. He did not do it out of evil, he did it out of a lack of goodness.
.
.
There is another faulty premise in the syllogism provided is there may be one other factor, God"s desire for free will. God wishes to be loved and wishes to share his love. In order for something to love, it needs to be able to choose not to love, and instead choose to love. Dogs do not, in reality, have the ability to love because they cannot choose moral right and moral wrong, they can only act off a series of instincts. God allows evil in order to give us free will. God separates and elevates us from the rest of the animal kingdom in order for us to love him through our actions of free will. In this case evil comes from the twisting and wrongly used gift of free will. Much like using a car to kill a group of people. The maker of that car did not INTEND for you to run into a crowd of people, it is somebody misusing the gift of that car. Coincidently, the maker of that car should not be held responsible for the actions of somebody else, just because somebody took their tool and used it in an evil way does not mean it is the intended purpose. Just like if somebody commits a mass murder, the border should not rest on God for allowing an act of this to happen through the misuse of the gift of free will.

Why would an accident give only one creature the ability to choose right from wrong?
Would you say murder is wrong? Who put that in place? Who chooses our moral laws that guide not only us today, but have for centuries.
Certainly not society, because if it were just society than how come, when we were hunter and gathers in tribes, every single tribe knew that murder was wrong. It is not coincidence that every single tribe had roughly the same moral code. Either it is a MAJOR coincidence of society or their is a grand designer.

Thank you for debating with me

(Reminder no rebuttles in the 4th round, get them in now)
(You may ask questions to which I can respond to in the fourth round, but any arguments I cannot contest or rebut)
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Debate Round No. 3
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Debate Round No. 4
1 comment has been posted on this debate.
Posted by LillieSteele 3 years ago
LillieSteele
@BlackeBirde, in round two you said in a way, Why would God let people suffer? Well, the answer is simple: Sin & free will. Adam and Eve were tempted by Satan to eat the fruit from the Good and Evil tree, after eating the fruit, sin entered the world and free will took its place. God allowed us free will and that led to Sin. God hates seeing his people suffering, but sin is the reason they are.
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