The Instigator
QuantumAchilles
Con (against)
The Contender
Thiest_1998
Pro (for)

Does God exist?

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 2/4/2017 Category: Religion
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Debating Period
Viewed: 943 times Debate No: 99606
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (17)
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QuantumAchilles

Con

Since you deny that the big bang took place and looking at your profile photo and username, I thought it would be fun to begin a debate on the existence of God, to see just how well you can defend your theology. I will be using physics, history and philosophy to proof that God is not real, hopefully by the end of this discussion, either I will make you an atheist or perhaps, you might make me a believer! Because I assume that you are christian, our debate will focus specifically in proving/denying the existence of the monotheistic, almighty God portrayed by the bible and the quran. With that being said, let the battle begin.

I will start of by enunciating two simple reasons that justify my atheism:
1) The main reason why I don't believe in the God described in the Bible and the Quran is because it is a purely subjective cultural invention that depends on sociological changes throughout history. Why didn't early hominids speak of an all-mighty creator? If the Christian and Islamic God was real, what was the all-mighty craftsman of the Universe, doing during the thousands of years in which mankind worshipped others Gods such as Zeus, Odin and Ra? If the monotheistic God were real, then his theological characteristics (the trinity, his unlimited power, the fact that he is eternal, his commandments and general philosophy) would be independent of culture and society, of conquest and historical dynamics (by which I mean the way in which cultural identity is wiped out through conquest) meaning that no matter what group of humans you were dealing with, be it Sumerians or Macedonians, despite their linguistic and political differences, they would each "discover" the nature of this one God independently of imperialism. Since this is not the case, it means that the believe in a particular deity depends on what empire conquered what nation at a particular time in history. For example, had Hannibal successfully defeated the Roman empire, his religion would have been forcefully spread in the new conquered territory and its ancient believes would have been forgotten. This is exactly what happened when the Spanish conquistadors wiped out the religious, linguistic and cultura, identity of American natives, replacing their very own language and religion through fear and genocide. To sum-up this particular argument against the existence of God as viewed by Islam and Christianity, says that God can't be real because his existence is not discovered nor found in nature, it's not an objective thing that groups of humans can have access to independently, but rather it is a made up concept, imposed by invasions and conquests. If early Homo Sapiens had drawn something that represented the holy spirit on cave walls, if Greek poets had spoken about the garden of Eden independently from the Jews, if the Egyptians had thought of a being similar to Allah before the Muslims, then it would mean that God is indeed an objective concept and therefore a real one but this has never been the case. We have on one side, certain similarities between religions specially in polytheistic ones for example, in Greek mythology the God Zeus is very similar to Odin and Ra, the idea of immortal warriors like Siegfried and Achilles, means that cultures have based on one another's myths to construct their own spirituality (one example of this is the myth of Deucalion the son of Prometheus who is told by his father to build an ark since Zeus had sent a deluge to wipe out humanity is virtually identical to the story of Noah) but on the other side of the spectrum, we find that ultimately, each religion and mythology offer a whole branch of explanations for the same thing: reality. If reality is one and objective, how can there be multiple interpretations of the same thing? General relativity is general relativity if you are in Greece or in Egypt, a circumference has a radius here and in Mars. This is basic quality of truth: that it is universal and objective and God certainly has none of that.

2) The second reason why I don't believe in God is a simple one really. If God was real, and if indeed he was the creator of the Universe then he would have to know the language of reality and that is, the handful of physical laws from gravity to electromagnetism which govern everything from the motion of atoms to the luminosity of galaxies. If indeed he existed, and if he indeed inspired people to write down his account of creation, then you would expect Genesis to contain a description of the Big bang, sure the names of forces and constellations and magnitudes can vary but the math stays the same, the key concept of inflation is unchangeable, you can call it magical growth but the logical relationships of quantity and geometry that back up this idea together with the cosmological evidence that is abundant in the wombs of space, make it a fact. Since genesis ignores the Big bang, galaxy growth, the age of the solar system and most important of all...EVOLUTION! you are left with two possible explanations:
Either God doesn't know the science that went into the making of the Universe in which case he didn't create reality or (and this is the most likely one) he doesn't even exist in the first place.
A being cannot be ignorant of atoms and plasma, of black holes and electromagnetism if he created this Universe and if he created us and all other life forms here on earth, he cannot be ignorant of evolution and DNA. The way in which Genesis is written is fantastic for literature, but for reality, it simply is nonsense.
Thiest_1998

Pro

Challenge accepted

My first question how the Bible (Christianity cultural invention)

Your Q.Why didn't early hominids speak of an all-mighty creator?

My A.maybe there isn't any scripture or document that states that this the general belief of people maybe people didn't feel the need to document but did if a very powerful person forces them to believe in a different god maybe people would feel the need to document that.

Your Q.If the Christian and Islamic God was real, what was the all-mighty craftsman of the Universe, doing during the thousands of years in which mankind worshipped others Gods such as Zeus, Odin and Ra?

My A.He probably sent a prophet to preach his word.

You said-no matter what group of humans you were dealing with, be it Sumerians or Macedonians, despite their linguistic and political differences, they would each "discover" the nature of this one God independently of imperialism.

My answer- And what would cause them to "discover" the nature of this one God independently.

You said-Since this is not the case, it means that the believe in a particular deity depends on what empire conquered what nation at a particular time in history. For example, had Hannibal successfully defeated the Roman empire, his religion would have been forcefully spread in the new conquered territory and its ancient believes would have been forgotten.

My answer- maybe in he past that's how those forced religions religions came about but did Christianity come about that way probably not I mean in the past Christianity way more of an oppressed religion than it has been a forced religion, people in certain parts of the since Christianity came about till now Christians are being killed for their beliefs so its more of a suppressed religion than a forced one.

You said-To sum-up this particular argument against the existence of God as viewed by Islam and Christianity, says that God can't be real because his existence is not discovered nor found in nature,

My answer- where are you getting this information from that Christianity that God doesn't exist because it says he does

Romans 1:20 - For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

1 Corinthians 8:6 - But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.

Revelation 4:11 - Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Hebrews 11:6 - But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

You said-it's not an objective thing that groups of humans can have access to independently, but rather it is a made up concept, imposed by invasions and conquests. If early Homo Sapiens had drawn something that represented the holy spirit on cave walls, if Greek poets had spoken about the garden of Eden independently from the Jews, if the Egyptians had thought of a being similar to Allah before the Muslims, then it would mean that God is indeed an objective concept and therefore a real one but this has never been the case.

My answer- what you're trying to say is that if people in the past believed in God by themselves you would've believed in it again would've if they did but didn't feel the need to record that but someone comes with a different belief and then it brings some urgency to them to want to record their history.

You said-we find that ultimately, each religion and mythology offer a whole branch of explanations for the same thing: reality. If reality is one and objective, how can there be multiple interpretations of the same thing?

My answer- I don't know why there are so many interpretations or the same thing you would have to ask the people who interpreted those things.

You said- The second reason why I don't believe in God is a simple one really. If God was real, and if indeed he was the creator of the Universe then he would have to know the language of reality and that is, the handful of physical laws from gravity to electromagnetism which govern everything from the motion of atoms to the luminosity of galaxies. If indeed he existed, and if he indeed inspired people to write down his account of creation, then you would expect Genesis to contain a description of the Big bang sure the names of forces and constellations and magnitudes can vary but the math stays the same.

My answer-For one the Bible is to me a brief description of human history and (Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth) how to be saved(become a Christian) and why, also the big bang never happened and it completely goes against the Genesis account and why is it important that he states the names of forces,constellations and magnitudes.

You said- the key concept of inflation is unchangeable, you can call it magical growth but the logical relationships of quantity and geometry that back up this idea together with the cosmological evidence that is abundant in the wombs of space, make it a fact. Since genesis ignores the Big bang, galaxy growth, the age of the solar system and most important of all...EVOLUTION!

My answer-The big bang never happened as well as evolution never taking place except for micro evolution evolution isn't found anywhere in nature so probably isn't real and the age of the solar system how would that be stated that the aage of the solar system is 1000 years old then what about when a year pasts or 10 wouldn't that text be wrong which would therefore cause bit of confusion.

You said-A being cannot be ignorant of atoms and plasma, of black holes and electromagnetism if he created this Universe and if he created us and all other life forms here on earth, he cannot be ignorant of evolution and DNA.

My answer he can be as ignorant as he wants to something that has never happened and never will.

WOW THAT WAS LONG AND A SHORT TIME TO DO SO on to the next round.

I genuinely feel like I've done an essay, I mean this is more work than in my ENGLISH GCSE EXAM
Debate Round No. 1
QuantumAchilles

Con

First, I will answer your first question then argue the points I presented on my first argument.
1) "How is the bible (Christianity) a cultural invention?" Christianity is a cultural invention because prior to the Jews, there was no culture in history, no society who ever spoke of a single God, all-mighty and eternal who created Adan and Eve as stated in the old testament. The fact that Homer spoke of Zeus and Hesiod told in the theogony of the origin of the Gods from "Chaos" of the titans and their offspring, the fact that Egyptians spoke of Ra and Isis and prehistoric cultures worshipped no deity that was in anyway similar to the one Moses followed, means that the Judeo-christian religion is a cultural invention, that belongs to a specific group of people in this case the jews, that's why it is repeatedly stated in the bible that Yahweh is the God of Israel, it belongs to Israel just as Apollo belongs to Israel. The fact that there was no account of Eden in any other mythology or religion before the jews came along, means that this myth of creation is the particular myth that the Israeili culture came up with just as the Mayas came up with the Popol Vuh and the Vikings with the idea of Ragnarok.
2) You basically say that the reason early humans never spoke of the Judeo-christian God was because they were banned to document their believes by a very powerful person? That is an ambiguous response. As it turns out there is a lot of anthropological evidence that shows that early humans had their own religious believes. Look at the way in which the buried the dead, additionally there is a whole lot of work in palaeontology and history that speaks of the early religions of prehistoric cultures, you can google it. There's the Paleolithic religion, the Mesolithic religion and several others. All of this religions contain very different ideas of death and the world to what the Bible states. As to your idea of early tyrants censuring people, prehistoric tribes were not organised enough to have people censuring religious believes, there is absolutely no evidence of this anywhere, which means your point is invalid.
3) You say that he probably sent a prophet to preach his word? Then why weren't any of his prophets heard during the hundreds of thousands of years in which humanity worshipped other Gods? Why were his prophets heard specifically in Israel? You didn't answer my question, so I'll formulate it again because your answer is again, invalid: What was the Judeo-christian God doing when humanity was worshipping Zeus and Ra, Isis and Odin?
4) You answer with a question? Alright, I say that God is not discovered, religion is imposed by imperialism that is when a nation conquers another one and imposes its own culture. Evidence of this is the way in which Catholicism was spread throughout America during the age of colonialism by the British and the Spaniards.
5) Its true that at the beginning, Christians were persecuted by the Romans but the truth is, Christianity managed to extend all over the world because of Constantine. When Constantine became emperor, the entire empire switched from polytheism to monotheism then when the Spanish conquistadors began to conquer south America, that religion was spread into the new world or rather forcefully preached through violence, slavery and fear. Religions spread only through conquest and imperialism. The Aztecs and Incas were forced to believe in the Catholic God because otherwise they would be killed.
6) You answer with a bunch of biblical passages but I say that proves absolutely nothing. In Homer's Iliad, it clearly states that Zeus is the God of thunder, so if I see a lightning bolt does that mean Zeus is real? Of course not, similarly when I read those passages you put forth, I only see metaphors with nature that proof nothing at all. There is no evidence of God in nature. Physics has demonstrated that the laws of physics are sufficient to cause processes such as inflation (the expansion of space-time) nucleo-synthesis (the formation of atoms) and other processes by which reality came to be. Therefore, I ask you to give me conclusive proof in nature of God's existence not some biblical passages because then, I could give you several Viking poems that speak of Thor manipulating thunder and Freya controlling spring.
7) So you are saying that the reason why early civilisations never mentioned the jewish God was because they didn't feel the need to record their beliefs? Good grief, go and read your history again! Look at the pyramids, the pantheon, the various statues, poems that our ancestors left precisely to immortalise their mythologies and ideas. The Iliad, the Odyssey, the theogony, the ramayana all this books are religious texts that speak of the Gods that were worshipped by people thousands of years ago with exactly the same devotion as the modern-day made up god is worshipped. Again, your answer is empty.
8) Well, there is an objective reality, a reality that changes with time and what makes science real and religion subjective is the fact that religion has too many contradictions. In science a planet is a planet, in religion a demon can have various names, a God can have various personalities and roles. Christianity is just an interpretation of reality that differs from say Greek Mythology and if you are saying that religion is the true way to interpret the world, how can there be so many differences between the spiritual view of the world? If there is only one god, how come so many civilisations created a whole family of Gods?
9) Oh for god's sake! Evolution never happened? So tell me is the Tiktaalik the missing link between sea creatures and terrestrial animals an accident? Are dinosaur bones, homo erectus skeletons and all the other thousands of fossils that have been found, just an illusion? Regarding the Big bang, if this explosion never happened, how can you explain the microwave radiation detected by Hubble? Scientists have been able to see, measure the temperature and even calculate the density of that explosion, the evidence is there.
10) My question was "How can god be ignorant of the laws of physics that make up the world he supposedly made?" and your answer is just weak and doesn't say anything whatsoever. If for example you cook curry, how can you not know the ingredients of the dish you made? Similarly, if God created the Universe, how come in genesis there is not a single reference to electromagnetism powering light, to gravity, to molecules or basic thermodynamics? The thing is, he can't be as ignorant as he likes as you say, because even if your creationist mind doesn't accept it, evolution and the Big bang were real phenomena that took place in the real world.

My questions:
1) How are you so sure that the Judeo-christian God is real and that Ares or Athena aren't? How are you so sure that Christianity holds the truth and Hinduism does not? As Richard Dawkins said it, had you been born in India you would be defending the existence of Shiva, had you been born in Macedonia you would be defending Hera, if religion depends on where you are born, how can you say that its statements are real, that the particular God it puts forth as the creator of the world, is a real being?

2) How can you explain that the bible says that the world was created in seven days, when the earth took millions of years to form? How can you explain the fact that theology once viewed the earth as the centre of the Universe? If they were inspired by God, then was God lying to them or is God simply too ignorant on the subject of astronomy?

3) If God is eternal and he existed before time existed, how did he create Universe? See, if he came from a world with no time, the act of creating something necessarily involves a transformation and a transformation simply put, is the act by which A turns into B and this cannot happen without time.

3) If evolution never happened, what are fossils then? Why do early-bacteria offer the primordial evidence of DNA? If evolution is not a real phenomenon, then what is DNA for and why are there so many different species in the world that share the same genetics? If evolution is a lie as you say, why does the Tiktaalik a fossil you can find in Wikipedia, have the anatomy of a fish but also a neck and lungs, proving it is the missing link between fish and terrestrial species? How can you explain the case of the white moths that mutated and became black due to the pollution of a victorian factory? How can you explain the way in which viruses mutate if evolution is a lie?

4)If God is all-mighty, can he create a rock so heavy he can't lift it?
Thiest_1998

Pro

I'm firstly going to assess some of your points and make a reply before I get to your questions.

1.Christianity is just following the life and teachings of Jesus and the first people to do so so happened to be Israelites so I would argue that its not a cultural invention.
How could Judeo-christian belong to a group of people who already have a different religion.
I know it does but state where in the Bible it says that "Yahweh is the God of Israel, it belongs to Israel"

You said- The fact that there was no account of Eden in any other mythology or religion before the jews came along, means that this myth of creation is the particular myth that the Israeili culture came up with just as the Mayas came up with the Popol Vuh and the Vikings with the idea of Ragnarok.

My answer- just a bunch of assumptions with no justification.

2. You said-You basically say that the reason early humans never spoke of the Judeo-christian God was because they were banned to document their believes by a very powerful person?

My answer I didn't say that I said probably they didn't feel the need to.

You said-You say that he probably sent a prophet to preach his word? Then why weren't any of his prophets heard during the hundreds of thousands of years in which humanity worshipped other Gods? Why were his prophets heard specifically in Israel?

My answer- its a big stretch to say that we've been around for hundreds of thousands of years and I don't know why specifically in Israel.

Like I said he was probably sending Prophets to preach his word

You said- When Constantine became emperor, the entire empire switched from polytheism to monotheism then when the Spanish conquistadors began to conquer south America, that religion was spread into the new world or rather forcefully preached through violence, slavery and fear. Religions spread only through conquest and imperialism.

My answer- I just did a quick search on him and found out that"emperor to claim conversion to Christianity,[notes 4] Constantine played an influential role in the proclamation of the Edict of Milan in 313, which decreed tolerance for Christianity in the empire." he tolerated Christianity in the empire not forced it.

6. You said the Bible doesn't talk about the existence of God and I gave you passages to prove you wrong.

You can't prove Gods existence nor can you disprove it.

You said-how come so many civilisations created a whole family of Gods?

My answer- I don't know why there is.

9.What missing link are you talking about there is none

How are they able to measure an explosion that happened years ago it doesn't make any sense.

10.Like I said its probably not that important to state that and maybe that not the reason why he inspired man to write the Bible

btw just Christian God not Judeo-christian God

Q1. Because the earth must have got here one way and The big bang theory/evolution has insufficient evidence as well ans Hindi, Islam ect, and if I was born in India doesn't mean I would be defending shiva there are plenty of Muslim, Christian and athiest Indians I was born in Jamaica doesn't mean I'm a rasta ferian (I ain't btw)

Q2. Actually six days or the people who think the earth took six millions of years to form is wrong.

Q3.I would say similar genetics not the same if all animals had the same genetics they would all look the exact same but they all have similar genetics because they all have the same designer, if you look at microsoft powerpoint and microsoft word they both have similar coding why maybe because they have the same designer, if I told you that all microsoft applications evolved from IOS application you would at least say that's foolish so why would you believe that about the earth?

Q4. I don't know ask Him.
Debate Round No. 2
QuantumAchilles

Con

1) You say and I quote: "How could Judeo-christian belong to a group of people who already have a different religion" Boy, you have to check your history! Judeo makes reference to Jews thereby the religion itself is making a reference to a culture. What historians call the Israeli people, were a group of tribes that were identified by a certain culture and that culture was characterised by monotheism. All forms of monotheism derive from the Abrahamic religions that is Islam, Judaism and Christianity and Abraham himself was a patriarch of Israel but before he reached this position, Jewish people were enslaved and pagans but when they finally reached the promised land, they became a nation in the sense that they were united by a single religion. That first argument is therefore completely invalid.
2) You say: "just a bunch of assumptions with no justification" So you think the vast amount of cave evidence that shows what kind of burial rituals and what kind of religions early hominids had, is just assumptions? So you are saying that the Sumerian tablets, the Iliad, the Odyssey, the Popol Vuh, the Ramayana and all other religious books that were written by ancient civilisations are a bunch of assumptions? What an empty answer. You argue nothing at all, so I'll make the same statement again to see if this time, you come up with an argument for a change: The fact that there was no account of Eden in any other mythology or religion before the jews came along, means that this myth of creation is the particular myth that the Israeili culture came up with just as the Mayas came up with the Popol Vuh and the Vikings with the idea of Ragnarok. And please, read the Illiad and the Odyssey just those two books and you will see that nowhere does Homer mention Eden and nor does any other book aside from the bible.

3) You say: "its a big stretch to say that we've been around for hundreds of thousands of years and I don't know why specifically in Israel" There is tons of evidence to show that Homo sapiens has been around for at least 100,000 or more. Tools in Africa, cave-wall paintings, Stone Henge, the fact that the Sumerian culture lived nearly 6000 years ago, all show that we've been around for at least 100 thousand years. Oh but of course, you being a creationist can't wrap your head around the idea of evolution!! So I suggest you go and read Richard Dawkins tale of the ancestor, Darwin's origin of the species so that in the future, you don't embarrass yourself by contradicting facts that have been repeatedly proven, unless of course you are down the line in the evolution of intellect, if you now what I mean, you monkey!

4) You say "Like I said he was probably sending Prophets to preach his word" So that is you answer to the question: "What was the biblical God doing during the thousands of years in which humans worshipped other gods such as Ra, Zeus and Odin?" Wow due, you keep giving this childish answers that say absolutely nothing, so again, I'll put this question forward until you give an actual answer like a grown man and not like a confused child who's never been in a debate before.

5) You say "I just did a quick search on him and found out that"emperor to claim conversion to Christianity,[notes 4] Constantine played an influential role in the proclamation of the Edict of Milan in 313, which decreed tolerance for Christianity in the empire." he tolerated Christianity in the empire not forced it" But then you see, when an emperor changes religion, his entire society has to change as well. This is exactly what happened during the Catholic vs Protestant wars in Tudor England and there is several evidence that shows that Constantine actually forced his religion. In case you didn't google it properly, he INVADED Rome and through imperialism, he forced barbaric nations to convert to the empire's new religion. Seriously, you have to check your history.

6) You say "You said the Bible doesn't talk about the existence of God and I gave you passages to prove you wrong" But I say, the Theogony of Hesiod gives detailed accounts of the birth and marriages of titans and Gods. How can you say that the passages you gave are real and the passages in the Theogony, in the Ramayana and in the Sumerian tablets are false, or wrong? There are various religious books that speak of the existence of a particular group of Gods so the fact that the bible speaks of the existence of God shows nothing at all. Once again your "argument" is invalid.

7) Your answer to the question: "If there is only one true God,how come so many civilisations created a whole family of Gods?" is "I don't know why there is" That my friend is just baffling ignorance at its peak. Once again, I'll leave this same question because yet again, you've failed to give a coherent answer.

8) You then go on attacking the Big bang, saying "How can they explain an explosion that happened years ago?" For your information, the Big bang happened 13.7 billion years ago and its radiation, heat and light are visible through telescopes. Seriously go and read some cosmology because you are just embarrassing yourself. Creationism was alright for the middle ages but we are in the 21 first century so I suggest you leave that middle ages vision of the world and adjust yourself to the facts of modern science.

Now regarding the "answers" you gave to my questions:
1) Your answer: "Because the earth must have got here one way and The big bang theory/evolution has insufficient evidence as well ans Hindi, Islam ect, and if I was born in India doesn't mean I would be defending shiva there are plenty of Muslim, Christian and athiest Indians I was born in Jamaica doesn't mean I'm a rasta ferian (I ain't btw)"
What the hell does that mean? Please organise your ideas and write a sentence that makes sense. So you are saying the earth goes one way and the Big bang and evolution the other way? What the hell are you talking about? You make no sense at all. The thing with Shiva was meant this way in case you failed to grasp it: How can you defend a particular religion when your belief system depends on where you were born? For example, HAD (notice this word) you been born in India you would be defending Shiva instead of Jesus Christ. Now that I've made myself clear, I expect you to give a coherent answer this time.

2) Your answer to my second question: " Actually six days or the people who think the earth took six millions of years to form is wrong" Dude that says nothing. I asked you: How can you explain that the bible says that the world was created in seven days, when the earth took millions of years to form? How can you explain the fact that theology once viewed the earth as the centre of the Universe? If they were inspired by God, then was God lying to them or is God simply too ignorant on the subject of astronomy?
And that's the answer you give? Common man! Try harder, I'll put this one forward until you make a descent answer for a change.

3) Your answer: ".I would say similar genetics not the same if all animals had the same genetics they would all look the exact same but they all have similar genetics because they all have the same designer, if you look at microsoft powerpoint and microsoft word they both have similar coding why maybe because they have the same designer, if I told you that all microsoft applications evolved from IOS application you would at least say that's foolish so why would you believe that about the earth?"
My question was: If evolution never happened, what are fossils then? Why do early-bacteria offer the primordial evidence of DNA? If evolution is not a real phenomenon, then what is DNA for and why are there so many different species in the world that share the same genetics? If evolution is a lie as you say, why does the Tiktaalik a fossil you can find in Wikipedia, have the anatomy of a fish but also a neck and lungs, proving it is the missing link between fish and terrestrial species? How can you explain the case of the white moths that mutated and became black due to the pollution of a victorian factory? How can you explain the way in which viruses mutate if evolution is a lie?

I can't help but notice that you missed several points. What are fossils then if evolution is fake? What is the role of DNA if evolution never happened?
I never stated that animals have the same DNA, i said that they have SIMILAR genetics and your answer once again, says nothing. Again, try and answer this question with a bit more effort.

4) Your answer to my question: " I don't know ask Him" and my question was
If God is all-mighty, can he create a rock so heavy he can't lift it?

Seriously dude? This basically means that you have absolutely no "arguments" left which means that I have crushed you intellectually. Here are some new questions and please try to not give such ridiculous, fifth-grade answers:
1) If God existed before time, how could he make something out of nothing when this necessarily involves a transformation and a transformation ipso facto involves time?
2)On what Basis can you assume that Anubis is fake and the biblical God real?
Thiest_1998

Pro

I don't have much time to reply so I'm just gonna speed through this next time please extend the reply time to "Longer than 24 hours please"

3. I cant wrap my head around a myth just look at my debate with Spud also that's a bit racist mate you need to calm down it's only a debate.

4,. Are you triggered or something?!?! what do you want expect me to say

5.I have searched my history I've learned about it growing up maybe you're the one who needs to search this up more because what I've been taught is different

7.I don't know how do you expect me to know something I don't know you ain't gonna get a different answer

8. I have and they've all been debunked that's why I don't believe them if you want we can debate that but for now we debate the existence of God.

1.The point I was trying to make is that your belief system isn't fixed depending on where you were born like I said I was born in Jamaica and so were my parents me nor my parents are rasta ferians yet we were born in Jamaica

2.I know I shouldn't say this but you're being silly how could you lie to someone about something even though you didn't tell them anything

3.it was a product of Noah's flood and YES you did say the SAME

4.No you haven't mate you just asked a question you nor I know the answer to.

My answers:since we are limited by time and its part of our universe I would assume God created it and he's not limited by time.
2. I never assumed Anubis is fake

You haven't asked many questions about God more about history less about his existence
Debate Round No. 3
QuantumAchilles

Con

I gave you 23 hours, that's enough time.
3) What do you mean racist? Are you reading along the lines to find things I never said?
4) Well, this question is meant as a puzzle. See, if God is all-mighty then there is nothing he shouldn't be able to do and in the case of the rock, if he can't create a rock so heavy he can't lift it, that means he has limitations therefore he cannot be all-mighty, that means that the concept of an all-mighty God is illogical.
5) You've been taught that the Big bang never happened, that the Jews had a different religion before the Abrahamic cults and most of all, you deny evolution. I think my history is alright.
I'm going to give you a new set of questions about the existence of God and this time, I'll try and not use so much biology and history because clearly, you can't handle it my friend:

Questions:
1) If there is one God, why is his existence not found in nature? You can find virtual particles in space, black holes in distant galaxies but there is not a single trace that shows that there is an eternal being anywhere in the Universe.

2)Baring in mind that the definition of matter is not something tangible and solid as most people think but it is actually that which is made up from atoms and any particle in the standard model from bosons to quarks and of course that energy is a form of condensed matter, how can something spiritual exist when energy is subject to the same physical laws as matter? What space is there in the human body for a soul? If you take all veins, arteries, nerves, neurons, bones and muscles you eventually get chemical energy, nuclear energy from atoms, electric energy from the brain and all these various forms of energy are made up from atoms. It is well known that atoms are not eternal or inmutable which means that they are subject to time therefore, one of the holiest characteristics of God's existence, that is his eternal nature, can't possibly take place in a Universe where time governs the dynamics of atoms. So, how can the soul (an immortal concept) exist outside of the boundaries of atoms? There are substances in the Universe that are not formed by atoms, for example dark matter but it serves only one known purpose and that is to drive the expansion of the Universe, so what is the soul made of?

3) If there is a God (the biblical one) why does he allow evil to spread throughout the globe without doing anything whatsoever to stop it? You might say he sent his son, but he ended up being crucified and after his sacrifice which was meant to forgive mankind's sins, thousands of wars were fought from Roman invasions to World war 2, so what good did that do?

4) How can god be eternal when he interacts with time?
Thiest_1998

Pro

Yes 23 hours is a long time but there are things that people like me do during those 23 hours such as sleep, college, jogging, football ect

3.You called me a monkey lol after I hinted that I'm brown skin

4.You basically just answered your own question, so my question is what's the point in asking me if you already have your opinion btw God probably can.

5.Actually I was referring to what I've been taught about 'my history'

1. I don't see how you find that out by looking at black holes but I don't see evidence of his existence in nature, I believe that his existence at the moment can't be either proved or disproved but there is evidence that points to his word being The truth such as The flood why it happened what evidence it left back and many more.

2. I don't know the Bible doesn't say anything about it so I wouldn't know.

3.Free will that's one of the beauty's of being humans we have the choice to do either good or bad and if we do bad we have a choice to repent and ask that we may be forgiven in Jesus name but if we don't there is a punishment because you've sinned and given chance after chance to repent and didn't take.

4. Maybe he isn't affected by time he made this universe and everything in it is subject to time but not Him because he created time and a creator isn't effected by his creation.

This round was alright looking forward to the next round :)
Debate Round No. 4
QuantumAchilles

Con

So, why did you accept the debate? Besides that has nothing to do with the topic of this discussion.
You have no intellectual arguments left and so you start to make personal comments, accusing me of calling you a "monkey" a bit ironic don't you think? since you don't believe in evolution, besides I have brown skin too, in fact I'm from latin america, so what's your point? trying to diffuse the situation with a completely out of the blue comment about racism, are you?
Onto business:
1) You say, "God probably can" So you're saying that God can create a rock so heavy he himself cannot lift it? Well then, if he is all-mighty then his power should be limitless and to assume that he can create something so heavy he can't lift it, would imply that he can go beyond his limitless nature and of course, you can't go beyond something that is infinite. If you say on the other hand that he can't create such a rock, then he has limitations. On the first interpretation, it means that God is not all-mighty because there's something he can't do and that is lift the heavy rock and if you go with the second interpretation, it means that he is again, limited because he can't create the rock.

2) You didn't answer my question, so I'll put it forward again: how can the soul (an immortal concept) exist outside of the boundaries of atoms? There are substances in the Universe that are not formed by atoms, for example dark matter but it serves only one known purpose and that is to drive the expansion of the Universe, so what is the soul made of?

3) Because you talk about sins, lets consider for a moment what the bible views as punishment for the wrongs of people. Lucifer was according to the bible, God's most beautiful/perfect creation, he rebelled against God however and was cast into hell for all eternity. If the demons that punish and torture souls in hell are servants of Lucifer/Satan, the fact that they punish souls that disobey God and his commandments, implies that they are actually imparting his law which would make them quiet literally, God's servants. If for example, you killed a number of USA soldiers then joined some insurgent group that was fighting the USA, do you think they would torture you for fighting their enemies? Similarly, if you disobey God (the enemy of Satan and his demons) Wouldn't you logically get a reward instead of a punishment? Free will is a concept in physics however, in religion it is used to justify God's absence. If the christian God is real, what was he doing during the inquisition? If the christian God is as peaceful and loving as the Bible says, why did he allow Spanish troops to massacre Aztec, Inca and many other american civilisations? Why did he allow wars, massacres, famine and injustice when he could easily show himself, help us without taking our free will? If a father sees his son doing something he shouldn't do, the natural thing a parent would do, would be to stop his child and help him. Does that mean the parent is taking his child's free will? Of course not. In the same way, God should intervene to help us and that intervention would not involve a violation to our free will. Explain to me why God has allowed from civil wars in Rome to the Indian Holocaust, to colonialism, to nuclear bombs, to dictatorships and disease? If he intervened to dissipate the roots of violence, to free us from hatred, he could correct us without taking our liberty.

4) You say that the creator isn't affected by his creation but the act of turning nothing into something is a transformation and as I said before, a transformation (B to C, nothing to Universe) has to occur within a frame of time because if you move from nothing (c) to something (d) you have a past (c) and a present (d) therefore you have time, so how can God be independent of time if the act of changing involves a differentiation between the past and the present?

I'll post a few more questions:
1) You believe that God is real and that he is inmutable and eternal, and you say he created the Universe well, if he indeed created the Universe with his own energy (otherwise where did the Universe come from according to your beliefs if it wasn't from God?) if he is an eternal being unaffected by time, how could his energy become something finite, affected by time? What I mean is, if matter and energy (such as electromagnetism) derived directly from God's essence which is eternal, how come, energy and matter are finite if they are extensions of God's power? You can't make something finite and affected by time from something that is eternal and unchanging because a basic feature of reality is that it changes with time.

2) The laws of physics show how inflation triggered the Big bang, how 300,000 years after the Big bang, the first atoms were formed in a process called nucleo-synthesis. Evolution then explains how the first microorganisms that dewelled in the depths of the sea learned to reproduce their information, eventually leading to the birth of reptiles, mammals, insects and all the other life forms in this planet. The mysteries that remain, what came before the Big bang, some of the missing links in evolution can be solved with a, the Multiverse theory that explains that there are several other Universes and that ours didn't come from nothing and b, by finding fossils, for example the Tiktaalik shows the no longer missing link between sea creatures and terrestrial life forms. If science by itself can explain this mysteries, if mathematics has allowed us to conceive parallel Universes and observe black holes, what is the role of religion? Why is God still relevant if art can now replace religion by offering us comfort through poetry and music? Religion cannot explain the world. The fact that we've been able to use quantum theory to create atomic energy, medicine to mutate certain bacteria, astronomy to visit other planets shows that reality does indeed comply to the basic laws of science, otherwise, why have planets orbited the sun in an ELLIPTICAL fashion millions of years the human mind existed? otherwise, why have molecules arranged themselves in geometric shapes eons before our planet even came to be? this means that science is real. On the other hand, there is no evidence of anything the Bible says. Have they ever found an angel's fossil? Have they found heaven or hell? Oh, perhaps an airplane pilot might tell you where the manor of God is, hidden in the clouds! With that being said, I want to ask you, if nothing religion says is found in the real world concerning the nature of God, souls and angels, what is the role of God in modern times? To provide comfort to things like death? To fool people into killing each other because one guy believes one story and the other denies it? What has religion done for mankind? And I'm not referring just to Christianity, what good did polytheism do? Cause wars, millions of deaths, a stall in knowledge during the middle ages, feudalism, slavery and the annihilation of the new world's culture.
The god you believe in, has no form so he is subject to many interpretations which means he is largely subjective, is always absent from human affairs yet preaches a form of ethics that just comes out as plane hypocrisy because he punishes us for our mistakes and yet, he does nothing to help. The God you believe in has a book which supposedly tells his word and that word is completely contradictory of science. In genesis, no evolution, no Big bang, no cosmology is mentioned. The history of the world from dinosaurs to the Sumerians from the Sumerians to the Aztecs, all of this is completely ignored and instead, the bible focuses only on the Israelis, stating that they are the direct descendants of Adan and Eve. It is a racial God who explicitly chose the jews as his followers, he is a God that likes to test his servants though he allegedly knows everything, as was the case with Job and Abraham. He is a God that values belief more than good actions, so if you kill someone but you worship God, you may be forgiven because of your loyalty to religion rather than by your worth as a human being. You believe in a God created by some authoritarian jewish elite thousands of years ago, which has been used since the middle ages throughout the world to cause fear, to justify authority and injustice, inequality and misery. You believe in a God that favours empires and does nothing to stop violence. You believe in a God without a face, in a God that is not in any way, visible in nature that was not even present during the vast historical period that goes from the first human beings to the pre-Israel cultures. You believe in a God whose personality and history depend on where you were born. You believe in a God that is no more real to those that were worshipped in the past, a God that gives no accurate account of the Universe nor of the way life came to be.
Most importantly, you believe in a God whose existence you can't even proof. And when I attack his existence through history, biology and cosmology arguing that God is subjective and that if God were real, genesis should have a detailed account of the Big bang, he should be found independently of culture, discovered independently of history by a true act of spiritual connection with nature. But since this is not the case, I conclude he is not real.
This round has not been posted yet.
Debate Round No. 5
17 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Spud 1 year ago
Spud
@ThatRandomGuy777 You're referring to Krauss's work when you are making the statement that "nothing" can come from something.

It's obvious you are conflating the philosophical definition of "nothing" with the way it is utilised in a discussion pertaining to the beginning of the Big Bang. If you had done a little bit of background checking on this matter, you would realise that what is being referred to when "nothing" is discussed in this context, is quantum instabilities; specifically quantum vacuums and fluctuations. It is referring to the quantum activity which is occurring inside a proton, and between the quarks of that proton. When most people think of "nothing" they are using the philosophical context; they generally don't think nothing as quantum instabilities and this is the case with your comments here. Also, this is not formally reconciled with the current model of the Big Bang theory, so you're off the mark on pretty much everything you just said in that comment.
Posted by QuantumAchilles 1 year ago
QuantumAchilles
You don't understand how the Big bang works. Inflation is the mechanism by which the singularity that contained space, time and energy expanded into the Universe so it wasn't nothing as you say
Posted by ThatRandomGuy777 1 year ago
ThatRandomGuy777
I find it odd that someone can really believe that nothing came out of nowhere and created everything, which is essentially what the big bang theory states.
Posted by Thiest_1998 1 year ago
Thiest_1998
Not everyone has as much spare time
Posted by QuantumAchilles 1 year ago
QuantumAchilles
So you're saying I'm dead? Hahaha what a childish excuse. I study, read, workout and have time left for the debate.
Posted by Thiest_1998 1 year ago
Thiest_1998
Ran out of time while answering next time make the debate longer than 23 hours to reply you're the only one here who doesn't have a life
Posted by QuantumAchilles 1 year ago
QuantumAchilles
It's a debate we're both supposed to have arguments
Posted by Thiest_1998 1 year ago
Thiest_1998
I had no argument in the first lace you started the debate you're supposed to have the 'relevant' arguments since you started the debate.
Posted by QuantumAchilles 1 year ago
QuantumAchilles
If you notice, every subject addressed, evolution and history are all to do with religion. Because you have no arguments left, you try to make it seem as though its too much information when in fact the problem is that you have no way of answering. Face it, you have no more arguments left.
Posted by Thiest_1998 1 year ago
Thiest_1998
Just really off topic
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