The Instigator
WrickItRalph
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
Country-of-dummies
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

Does Secular Morality Work?

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 2/20/2019 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 414 times Debate No: 120409
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (4)
Votes (0)

 

WrickItRalph

Pro

I believe that secular morality is functionally better than any of the competition. . . . .

I open the floor to my opponent.
Country-of-dummies

Con

Well, From my point of view, Secular morality is something that is a VERY broad term. In saying secular morality, You could mean, Sexual morality, Intellectual morality, Domestic morality, Etc. However, According to many Christians, And even other religions, You are in sin and going to a place of torment when you die, If you continue in you "secular morality". They believe that just because you are a "good person" does not make you a person they want their children around or someone that they would want to be friends with: what it means to be unequally yoked. Unfortunately, This does make people feel excluded or that the world is not inclusive to them, Such as homosexuals etc. Many people in our modern world think that such types of "secular morality" is not actually a form of morality at all, But sin, Evil, And wickedness. Many people believe that "secular morality" is something that is a form of rebellion to old fashioned values, Something that is ridiculous and should be done away with. In many cases, Secular morality has gotten out of control. Nowadays, Anything goes, Anything that makes people happy, Is what they do: the opposite of how it should be. Maybe this is the reason our societies are so screwed up, Because people live up to their own standard of morality: secular.
Debate Round No. 1
WrickItRalph

Pro

You make a good point. Secular morality can vary widely and is defined broadly. Unfortunately, I cannot speak for every secular system, So I will have to present the argument based on the points that are most agreed upon. I think that will be the best way to give my case a fair shake. Similarly, I will have to make the same judgement for Christian morality. There are many sects of Christianity, So their take on morality is very broad as well. I guess that puts us in the same boat ;)

I would like to point out that secular morality is not about doing whatever you want or only that which makes you happy. The first thing I think can be said is that our initial standards are drawn subjectively. Once we have made these standards, We can then agree upon them as "the rules" so to speak. Now that the rules are in place, We can make objective decisions based off of them. These standards can vary, But in general they are judged based on harm and benefit. When we plug this into the system, It becomes much easier to make judgements about things. Now, People cannot do whatever they want simply because it makes them happy, Because some of those things would be harmful. So if breaking someone's arm makes me happy, I cannot do it under secular morality. I think the strongest case for my proposition is the fact that secular morality can grow and improve over time. We can make the standards, Make judgements about them, And find ways to adapt them for better results. I ask you, Can biblical morality be changed? Can it be improved? If you believe that The Bible is infallible, Then the answer is no. I won't attribute this to you, Because I don't want to presume your position. If you don't believe it is infallible, Then at the very least. You would be limited to some extent by certain interpretations or tenants of your beliefs. I reject the idea that people like homosexuals who have not harmed anybody should have to live in fear of being on the wrong side of their moral systems. You can say that secular morality is not a form of morality. But this is simply because we're defining morality different, Which is fine. That's why we're here today. You say that secular morality is a form of rebellion. I would need this further explained because I'm not sure what exactly it is that we would be rebelling against. My last response is that I would need you to better explain what is wrong with my system on a functional level. I've heard you say that we're sinning and doing whatever we want. But I don't believe in sin until God can be demonstrate to me within reality and I think my previous comment explained why we're not just doing whatever we want.

From a rhetorical perspective, I find your tactics aggressive yet polite. Your floor my favorable foe.
Country-of-dummies

Con

Yes, I like debating you very much, Compared to my other debating partners, Who don't seen to share my respectful approach.
I am wondering though, When you mention the words "we" throughout your debate response, What exactly do you mean by we? Do you mean like-minded people? I am just curious. Who makes the rules you live by? The law? I do think though, That we do not live in a banana republic, So to speak, That slips around from idea to idea, Lifestyle to lifestyle, Doing whatever makes us feel good, So what you said makes perfect sense. Parents want to raise their children with some sort of stability, Regardless of what everyone else in the world is doing. I think the point is though, This is the new mindset, Whether you call it secular morality, Or something else, This younger generation goes into a much different form
of "free thinking" and what we think of secular morality. Now, There are different forms of secular morality, Many of them extremely radical. Most notably, There is also "radical" Christian sects. There are some extremely radical "Christians" now, Who do not do justice to the term christian. When I talk about Christians, I am talking about people who follow God's laws, Love people, And try to be good, Productive citizens, Not really the radical people. When I think of secular morality,
for the most part, I think of good people, People that live up to the law's standards, But not necessarily biblical standards, Which would be every thought and deed. This is basically morality divorced from religion. However, As stated before, Secular morality has taken on MANY different faces, Some of which are not "moral" in any sense of the word. We see this especially in the sexual side of secular life. <(say that 3 times twice). Again, This is seen mostly in the younger generation. How would I know? I am that generation! You say that you cannot break someone's arm because it makes you happy, But, That is what many of my generation are doing in effect, They go in and shoot everyone in their class because they "felt like it" or "it made them feel better. " I do believe that the Bible is infallible, However, There are issues that the Bible does not necessarily mention in detail, But that does not mean that I have the license to do it, Just because the Bible doesn't say it. I believe that God also gave us common sense, Sense enough to know what not to do. Just because the Bible does not spell out for me to look both ways before crossing the street, Doesn't mean I won't! I probably should not have said that secular morality is immoral. If that is what I said, Then I heartily apologize. Better said, There are forms of secular morality,
(especially more modern forms) that posses qualities of immorality, Just like there are sects of "Christianity" possess qualities of immorality, (sad to say). Secular morality is indeed a form of morality, And again, If that is what I said, Then I apologize, But I do not believe in the new form of secular morality. I think this goes back to old-fashioned values, Which I hold dearly. My colleagues and peers from my generation think I am ridiculous in the way I live, With morals and values, But I do not change, And hopefully, That part about me will never change. You sound like a really good person, Not some of the rebellious people I know that call themselves "the secular world. " I do think though, That this form of secular morality is far from right. If secular morality means that you make your own rules, Chances are, You are doing things that the Bible would not necessarily approve of. However, That does not make you a bad person, Just someone whom the Bible says is (you guessed it) immoral. I am wondering though, If you would disagree with this mindset of my generation. Even in our politics, We can see some pretty radical morals, Which I do not necessarily agree with. In a perfect world, Secular morality could work, But I do not think we live in a perfect world, And I think secular morality can be taken to the extreme, Unlike biblical morals, Which are not "supposed" to ever change (if you actually walk the walk).

Your floor, Floral moral. . .
Debate Round No. 2
WrickItRalph

Pro

That is correct on how I meant "we". Obviously there is no global agreement on morals, So I can't really say "we" in the sense of the world. But I can dream. It's not really about who makes the rules for me, But rather, What makes the rules. I can't speak for the world, But I personally would like to see a system of morality built off preventing harm, Maximizing benefit, Protecting property, And rationing property. There might be a couple of more pillars that are beyond my ethical understanding, But I think these work as a starter package. The beauty of this system is that there is no person, Contract, Or edict that can overturn it. The law would have to pass this vetting process before it could even be touched by human hands. That's what gives it the objective aspect that most people want out of a moral system. Because any moral system that is based of opinions, Now matter how many, Is at risk of becoming either a monarchy or polyarchy. This is what I fear would happen under biblical morality. We'll be planted in the stone of god's word. We can never change our rules, Even if they've been shown to fail in some cases. Now I'm not saying that biblical morality couldn't function in society. But when I look at the pros and cons of biblical vs secular, Without asking if god exists first, It becomes apparent to me that the latter has more to offer. Now I'm willing to admit that some versions of secular morality can be extremist or ineffective, But I'm afraid that you're in the same boat as me. You said yourself that there are extremist Christians. So when we compare the two, That box gets checked for a tie. I'm not sure if you said secular morality was actually immoral. I might have posed that argument hypothetically and not necessarily in response to you. I try to do that when I can for the sake of thoroughness so we don't have come back to it at an awkward moment and ruin the flow, So to speak. I can't really jump into the head of your generation per se, But I was a teenager once (a million years ago) and one thing I know is that one can be very impulsive at that age and morality seems so much simpler than it really is. I think that your generation will be better than ours for a lot of reason, But that's a conversation for a different time. But in a nutshell, My generation was still feeling the ripple of bigoted ideas from two generations ago, Which is why the concept of microaggressions is so popular with this generation, Because they were raised farther from the ripple and therefore see more clearly than my generation without having to go the extra mile. In closing, I don't think a perfect world is possible. To be totally frank, I think the idea of perfection is put on a pedestal. Make sure you don't pull any punches in the last round.
Country-of-dummies

Con

Well, In closing, I would just like to say, That, What you said about still feeling the ripple effect is exactly why I think secular morality is not as productive as it needs to be.
The question is, Does it work? I would say, It could, But as of right now, I do not think it is working, Not from what I have seen in the young generation.
Now, From your point of view, It would work. The way you would like it to be, That is a really good example. I am not sure though, That you could make people have morals. It has to be something they want to do more that just something you tell them to do.
You have put together some really good ideas, Along with a really good debate. I am glad to have been a part of this debate. YEE-Ha
Debate Round No. 3
4 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Posted by WrickItRalph 3 years ago
WrickItRalph
I got a couple up if you're interested. Once I get those paired, I have some other topics that I'll run by you before I post them.
Posted by Country-of-dummies 3 years ago
Country-of-dummies
great! Let me know about debates you start!
Posted by WrickItRalph 3 years ago
WrickItRalph
That was fun, Your last post was nice because you hit me with a point that I didn't cover but had an answer to. That's smart because it's my fault for not pinning it down earlier. Knowing that you go last, I always have to make sure that I don't leave anything unanswered, Because then you can throw it out there like a grenade. Well played. I won't even say the response because I want it to feel organic.
Posted by WrickItRalph 3 years ago
WrickItRalph
I apologize for the slow response, I had to run some errands.
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