The Instigator
jrardin12
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
Sonofcharl
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

Does the Fossil Record Prove Millions of Years or a Flood?

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 11/2/2018 Category: Science
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,273 times Debate No: 118819
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (32)
Votes (0)

 

jrardin12

Pro

I believe the evidence Points to a World-wide Flood about 4, 000 years ago.
The geologic column is a sham.
Circular Reasoning is always used.
Sonofcharl

Con

So which is it?

Does the fossil record prove millions of years?
Or:
Does the fossil record prove a flood.

All theories eventually beg some question or another.
Ultimately all theories beg the same question.

So where is Pro going with their ambiguous proposition?

The geological column is undeniable and therefore cannot be regarded as a sham per se.
However:
Interpretation is always open to scrutiny.
Debate Round No. 1
jrardin12

Pro

Fossils show rapid burial not millions of years.
The order of fossils in the rock can also prove a world wide Flood.
Coal, Erosion, Salt deposits and coral reefs can form rapidly.
Sonofcharl

Con

Pro makes several presumptive arguments.
Let's go through them:

1) Worldwide flood 4000 years ago.
a. Where is Pro's evidence?
b. Where did all the water come from and where did it go to?
c. Notwithstanding fossil evidence. How does pro account for species evolution within a 4000 year timeframe?
d. There is extensive archaeological evidence that pre dates a 4000 year timeframe. Therefore there should clearly be flood indicators visible within these archaeological horizons.

2) "The geological column".
a. Pro alludes to the existence of a geological column and then refers to it as a sham. Without explanation.
b. A geological column either exists or it does not.

3) Circular reasoning.
Correct me if I'm wrong. But isn't Pro's argument a prime example of circular reasoning. Given their obvious hidden agenda, Which has not yet surfaced in this debate so far.

4) Fossil burial.
Three statements of presumptive and unqualified diatribe, Completely lacking evidence.

Yes. Individual burial events can be catastrophic and rapid. Nonetheless the succession of these events and consequent build up of the geological column and fossil timeline has taken far longer than 4000years to occur.

Why? Because the causes of these events are not divine intervention.

Climate fluctuations over tens of thousand of years, Intermittent geological activity such as volcano and earthquake and their associated devastation and extremely infrequent extra-terrestrial incursions are the actual causes of species extinction, Erosion, Burial, Fossilisation and consequent geological build up.

I would suggest that Pro has little or no interest in geology. They certainly do not possess the academic ability and knowledge to prosecute this line of reasoning to a successful conclusion.
I strongly believe that Pro will eventually have to resort to the introduction of religious myth and magic into the debate.
Debate Round No. 2
jrardin12

Pro

The evidences for a worldwide flood are the following: Fossils of sea creatures high above sea level (like the Himalayas), Rapid burial of plants and animals, Rapidly deposited sediment layers spread across vast areas, Sediment transported long distances, Rapid or no erosion between strata, And many strata laid down in rapid succession.

The amount of water on this planet could cover the entire earth by up to two miles.

The water came from the fountains of the deep or under the earth's surface and it is all in the oceans and lakes and at the Poles.

About species, Dogs are interbred all the time and we have many different variations of them in only the last few hundred years, Since they have become household pets.

The archaeology they do today is based on the faulty 14C that has dated things that were dead a day before to be thousands of years old.

The geologic column is not millions of years old, But was formed in the days and months after the Flood.

Circular reasoning is saying the rocks date the fossils and the fossils date the rocks.

The fossils are not formed by sitting in one place. A raccoon that gets hit on the side of the road will be eaten by scavengers and bacteria. It will not sit there for millions of years waiting for the ground to slowly rise on top of it and fossilize it. The same goes for fish and humans. Fossilization always requires rapid burial.

When the Flood happened there was plenty of volcanic activity, Earthquakes and tsunamis to bury fossils rapidly, Which is why we have fossil graveyards.

As for extra-terrestrials, That is a faith in itself.
Sonofcharl

Con

Firstly:
Extra terrestrials and extra terrestrial are not the same.
The Earth is hit by tens of thousands of fragments of extra terrestrial debris each year.
Extra terrestrials at this moment in time are the stuff of fantasy and imagination.

A) The Indian and Eurasian tectonic plates collided approximately 50million years ago resulting in the formation of the Himalayan mountain range. Land formerly at sea level was lifted by the subduction of the Indian plate under the Eurasian plate. This process is continuous and verifiable.
The rapidity of catastrophic events is not in question. What is in question is Pro's assertion that successive events were virtually simultaneous, Occurring at the time of a mythical flood. Simply, The weight of evidence against, Easily negates Pro's unsubstantiated assertion. Pro should indulge themselves in some serious geological research. Igneous formation, Sedimentary deposition and rock formation, Metamorphic formation, Soil formation and deposition, Climatic variations, Plate tectonics and volcanic activity. Did all these processes really occur in an instant 4000 years ago?

B) So why isn't the Earth completely covered in water?

C) Dog breeding is a particularly poor example of natural species evolution. I think it fair to suggest that human intervention played rather a large part in this process.

D) Radiocarbon dating is a reliable method of estimating the age of an object. Radiocarbon dating can be verified using dendrochronology. Both of these dating methods are founded on lengthy scientific study and scrutiny. Whereas the flood is a myth based assumption.

E) Pro must prove that there was a global flood 4000 years ago. 2000 year old mythology is not reliable evidence.

D) The bible proves the flood and the flood proves the bible. Maybe, Maybe not. Let's see some exacting evidence.

Fossils probably date the rocks and rocks probably date the fossils. Circular but reliably informed.

E) Yes. There's absolutely nothing wrong with the principle of rapid burial. It fit's perfectly with either theory.

F) Yes. Catastrophic events have always occurred. No one is arguing this point.
Debate Round No. 3
jrardin12

Pro

The only difference we have in the plate tectonic collision is the date. You will have to prove to me that this occurred 50 million years ago. What is the problem of this happening only 4, 000 years ago?

The earth isn't covered with water because the earth has been pushed up due to the breaking up of the fountains of the deep.

You cannot determine the age of a rock using radioactive dating because no-one was present to measure the radioactive elements when the rock formed and no-one monitored the way those elements changed over its entire geological history.

Again the evidences are fossils of sea creatures high above sea level (like the Himalayas), Rapid burial of plants and animals, Rapidly deposited sediment layers spread across vast areas, Sediment transported long distances, Rapid or no erosion between strata, And many strata laid down in rapid succession.
Sonofcharl

Con

A)"Collision" is an over dramatic noun that does not truly represent the rate of progress in question.
In terms of geological processes 4000 years is the blink of an eye. The current rate of growth in the Himalayas can be reliably calculated to be approximately 2cm per year, So we can easily calculate that over the last 4000 years the Himalayan region would have risen by only approximately 80m.
Nonetheless. Pro's response to the issue of plate tectonics is one of agreement. Therefore is pro admitting that fossil presence in the Himalayas occurs primarily as a result of geological action rather that as a result of a global flood event?

B) "The Earth isn't covered with water because the Earth has been pushed up due to the breaking of the fountains of the deep".
Notwithstanding the fact that pro has previously agreed with the principle of plate tectonics. This statement is simply the stuff of the myths and legends of the biblical tale.

C) Radio carbon dating uses current scientific knowledge and understanding and applies this knowledge to past events. Given that the rate of carbon14 decay is observed to be consistent, It is fair to assume that it is more likely than not this rate of decay has always been consistent and therefore a reliable indicator.
As I previously stated, Dendrochronology is also a reliable dating method and therefore a reliable verifier of the radio carbon method. Noticeably, Pro failed to address this point.
Quite simply, Biblical myths are neither reliable nor verifiable.

D)
1. Tectonics explain high altitude occurrence of fossil finds and Pro actually supports the principle of tectonics.
2. Flood events have a tendency to be rapid. Once again no one is disputing this fact. But deposition and strata formation is clearly indicative of a succession of events over a prolonged period of time. Pro's biblically based assertion is only supportive of one such event.

E) Two more points for Pro's consideration:
1. If The fossil record is only indicative of a single 4000 year old flood event. Then why is there not evidence of all species, Including homo-sapiens in that one fossil record?
2. Similarly, As there is clear evidence of dinosaurs in the fossil record, Why is there no mention of dinosaurs in the bible?
Debate Round No. 4
jrardin12

Pro

jrardin12 forfeited this round.
Sonofcharl

Con

The Bible is mythology and neither geology or palaeontology.
Geologists and palaeontologists are far more knowledgeable and incisive than the people who made up the bible tales.

Anyone that agrees with Pro is similarly deluded.
Debate Round No. 5
32 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by WhoPutYouOnThePlanet 3 years ago
WhoPutYouOnThePlanet
A: Fossils DO NOT show rapid deposition.
B: You would expect to find at least one single error in the fossil record for both the creatures and the time period in which they fossilized, Yet its solid and conclusive even with new fossils being discovered.
C: The fossil record is cross confirmed by genetics and vice versa which shows a clear over lapping accurate taxonomy.
D: and probably the most important, FOSSILS don't FORM IN 4000 YEARS.

Pro is obviously a diluted fool who wants to believe what he wants to believe.
Posted by backwardseden 3 years ago
backwardseden
Well DDO didn't take one of my posts and one of them is out of chronological order. I know. Shoot me with a squeegee board at a Disney vacation lodge where my mind can be set free on getting high from far too much garlic onion beer deodorant commercials that keep me up late night. Time for my nap.
Posted by backwardseden 3 years ago
backwardseden
I ---never--- for one instance mind people telling me what to do or if I am wrong if it comes from intelligence and if its not stupid. In fact I welcome it and I do it all the time. Its how I have had 5 lifelong friendships who would happily die for me at any given time. Can you say the same? No you can't and you know it. Because you fill people's minds with B. S. But its not only that you have no evidence to back up what you say, So who is going to believe you?
"Please I love you enough to tell you these things. " Who are you doing it for? Not me. You are doing it for you so you can be at peace with YOUR ego. AND as stated. . . Your bible, And please read it for what it is. . . Is based on a superior ego god complex and nothing more. Here's something else that you've never done which is why you are so bad at this. . . You've never bothered to even look at it from my or anyone else's perspective but your own = self gratification = ego. You do not pay attention to any outside evidence especially when it is handed to you on a silver platter. You are the typical so-called christian that completely ignores it especially when it comes to something that puts you in a bind that you cannot answer.
"Oneday you will face God on judgement day" Yeah if he exists, So? Ain't no way I'm gonna be up there in his dung of a heaven made with killers who have found christ and simply because I haven't I will go to hell for having done nothing wrong.

Now if you continue to ignore all of the evidence as you have thus far done, Then what's the point us communicating further? You cannot convert me. I'm far too good for your god. Regardless no hard feelings.

Now here's something that well I dunno. . .
These are made by Director Neill Blomkamp (District 9, Elysium, Chappie)
https://www. Youtube. Com/watch? V=Q1_HfhtB5eo&t=53s - Oats Studios - Volume 1 - God: Serengeti
https://www. Youtube. Com/watch? V=w4AGocVq7-w - Oats Studios - God: City

please tc and have fun! -Michael
Posted by backwardseden 3 years ago
backwardseden
I exist in constant horrific pain that you cannot possibly fathom. And yeah I think of suicide every---single---second---of---every---single---day. My friends who would die for me wonder why I am still here. Don't hand me that god crap that he wants me still here. Because I am intelligent and educated enough to speak out against this thing every chance I get.
Now you want suffering? I once knew a great friend who was raped, Beaten and tortured by her stepfather at the age of 4 all the way up until 17 sometimes twice per week. She then runs away, Gets married, Has a child, Gets a divorce. The state takes the child. She attempts suicide by jumping off of a high dive into a pool with no water. It breaks her back so that she can barely walk and she has a severe limp. The hospitals will not give her proper pain killers. So she turns tricks so she can get her crack and cocaine so they will kill her pain. She then gets AIDS and dies. I seriously doubt if she had a single happy week in her entire fricken life. So say your god exists, He deliberately put her on this planet to knowingly suffer just as he wants it otherwise he is not a god, Does not know everything, Is not in charge of everything, Is not all knowing or all powerful, Is most certainly not omnipotent, Is definitely not perfect. Well he created the human race, So he's obviously not perfect. That's reason enough to not believe in this thing. Now if god is god he didn't have to create her to suffer AT ALL because there's NOTHING children can EVER learn from suffering, Not one god damned thing. And he could have whisked her away off this rock without any scars. DON'T YOU DARE SAY she's in a better place. Um no, She shouldn't have had to have gone though this in the first place and would still be alive and probably very happy. But you have no concept of not only what true love is, But what happiness is as well.
Yeah there's worse. . . I have a lifelong friend who worked as a security guard at a psych ward
Posted by backwardseden 3 years ago
backwardseden
who knew this 6 year old girl who was raped so bad by her stepfather that her vagina turned into her a$$. I cannot even contemplate that. Neither can you. But that's the sick god for you to knowingly create people like these. Even worse is this god of your creates these monsters to commit their wonderful acts. After all you must think they are wonderful because you worship this god. Even better, No exceptions, None, Is this god of yours gives the free will to the evildoer for the first round, The first swing of the bat, While the victims suffer, Especially children who cannot SCREAM and get away while daddy is punching them is the face as he is sticking his you know what inside of them. And this gives your god great pleasure. Nah you would go into your usual denial if shown the verses so why bother. Do you know what denial is?

Let's move on. . . "Plus many assumptions, Just one for example is saying God would never use text as a form of communication. " 100% oh no no no. Why so you can misinterpret and get it wrong? But that's not the reason. The reason is simply if your god is a god he can simply talk to us. He can simply say to each and every single person on planet earth what he wants done. He would never use text for that reason alone so mistakes of copies upon translations upon dead languages with contradictions and silly things that no god would enter in his bible like. . .
GE 6:5 God is unhappy with the wickedness of man and decides to flood the earth to eliminate mankind. All living things including plants, Animals, Women and innocent children are also exterminated. (Note: This is like burning down a house to rid it of mice. )
GE 18:1, 7-8 God eats solid food with Abraham.
LE 11:20-21 There are winged creatures (birds or insects) that go around on all fours. (Note: There are no birds that go around on four legs, And all insects have six or eight legs. )
LE 14:49-53 The cure for leprosy involves incantations and the blood of a bird.
Posted by backwardseden 3 years ago
backwardseden
That's exactly what I thought. No evidence to support any of your erroneous claims. You truly have no concept, None as to what genuine love is. When you tell me you love me with absolutely no morality to support what you stand for and to what your convictions are, That they are mere convictions without substance because you utterly refuse to look at evidence even if its presented right in front of you, Then it truly becomes the most sickening thing that there is and shows that you cannot possibly have any intelligence whatsoever. Here's what I mean by this. . . Suppose you have a daughter, And you never will at this rate because apparently, You wish to be forever alone, Completely living in sadness, And forever be unhappy. . . Suppose you have a home invasion and then this person tells you that he will put a bullet in your daughter OR you relinquish the belief in your god. Which would you choose? If you choose your god (a belief) over your daughter (in which you hold in your hands) something is seriously wrong with you. But then again that's exactly what your christ tells you to do with his piece of s--t division family ideals in which only the completely insane would follow. You still don't get that you can not prove your god exists, He is completely immoral because you haven't in any way read your bible, That is so obvious, And even if you were to read it, You would still have not read it.
Obviously as I knew you wouldn't even dare, You didn't take the morality tests. That's because you can't take them. That's because you 100% know that your god is a piece of s--t to issue such hideous laws to begin with and THEN to cause horrific suffering for absolutely no reason whatsoever. But then again you truly have no idea, None, As to what true suffering is, Or do you and that the only comfort you can possibly find is by blanking it out in this demonized possession you have with this invisible god you have. See, I don't blank out my sufferings.
Posted by Skye2468 3 years ago
Skye2468
him. You probably don't like the idea of someone telling you what to do. According to the Bible one of the reasons is because you hate the light, And love the darkness. So you suppress the truth in unrighteousness.

Please I love you enough to tell you these things. So I am pleading with you. Humble yourself, Repent and put your faith in Jesus. Once you genuinely do that for the right reasons you will get your proof of God when he makes you born again.

I care about you so much, And that is why I am so desperate, And try so hard. It's not because I am trying to prove my points or anything like that. I just know this truth, And I want to share it, And I want you to be in heaven when you die. I just love and care about you so much I have to plead with you.

I said this at the end of one of our debates, And i'll say it again. Oneday you will face God on judgement day. You can either bow your knee now, Or you can bow it when it is to late, But either way you will bow your knee. Please I beg you don't put this off.
Posted by Skye2468 3 years ago
Skye2468
Backwardseden - To tell the truth when you talk to me I want you to come at me with your hardest and best arguments. I am not upset, Or sensitive. There is no need to go soft on me, Because I am not claiming I believe in God. I am claiming I know he exists even if I can't prove his existence the way you want me to prove it. When ever I say "I believe" I am referring to the faith I have in him. Each time you come at me with a new argument it only helps improve my faith. Each time you try to discredit the Bible you are only proving what it says to be true. Each time you try to prove the Bible is fake, And no one should follow it, You will fail. As it says in the Bible " Heaven and earth shall pass away, But my words will never"

Also I know for a fact you do not understand God, Because as the Bible says the only way to understand God is through his Spirt. Without his Spirit you cannot understand God properly. This verse here shows that, Also it shows that you think the Bible and Gods ways are foolishness. Which you do think it's foolishness.

But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, For they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, Because they are spiritually discerned. 1 Corinthians 2:14

I also know you do not have understanding because you made many theological errors and mistakes in your responses.

Plus many assumptions, Just one for example is saying God would never use text as a form of communication. You cannot say what God would use or not use, Because you have no basis, And you are not God yourself. So you could not know this.

The Bible says you are blinded. You can say you don't believe this, But you cannot say it isn't true, Because if it is true, Because you are blinded you wouldn't know.

You talk as if you and God are equal, Or you're above God or something. God judges us, Not the other way around. I don't think it's necessarily you think God is evil. You don't want God to exist, So you try and discredit h
Posted by backwardseden 3 years ago
backwardseden
There's no chance that you can convince me your god is real. Remember I told you I could tell you some true stories that would turn your soul black and then I could tell you about me? Your god deliberately creates people to knowingly suffer, Especially children. So if your god is real, He knowingly loves it, Otherwise he would not create it. And if not then your god is not a god and not in control of everything and not in charge of everything and is not all knowing and all powerful and is not omnipotent and its already been proved that your god is not perfect. So if your god is real, He'd have the guts to show himself unto me so I can happily spit in his face, Not only for myself but for the millions of others he creates to knowingly suffer per year. So it is you that is blind by not only faith which is not evidence of any kind but by sheer gullibility. See, I've got friends and loved ones that would die for me in an instant. What do you have? An invisible god, Lonely life that you live, Sad, Very sensitive, Can be hurt easily, But you live to die so you can have an eternal life with a completely immoral god based on a "belief". Now is that a way to live?
You are so right I don't have proof of god because of how I am. I've done some actual research on this god of yours. I've read the bible thank you very much.
"That is how god works"? You cannot even prove your god exists, So how can you know how your god works? Again there's no tests, Demonstrations or declarations of your god. You don't even know what your god is because after all your god did not describe himself in your bible at all. So what is your god? What is IT? You have no idea in a book where every single character, Especially its superior ego god complex in which your bible is entirely about and nothing else, Are entirely immoral.
I'm shutting down for the evening. Please tc and have fun -Michael
Posted by backwardseden 3 years ago
backwardseden
No offense.
I don't have to try hard at all to discredit the bible. The bible does just fine at that through gods atrocities and hating children alone with his murders, Tortures and rapings of them. Then there's your god's deliberate genocides for absolutely no reason which are completely immoral just because your unproved god is a well known jealous crybaby and wants to throw his hissy fits because others don't want to worship him and they worship other idols or gods oh wah wah. There's far far far worse such as the raping of 6 five year old girls and murdering them and ripping off their fingernails. Oh but wait, If this murderer finds christ, He will have a place in this heaven of YOURS according to YOUR bible. And me for having done nothing wrong and not believing in this atrocity christ who believes in slavery, I will go to hell. All the more power for me in not believing. I---have---morals.
Your bible is chocked filled with hypocritical contradictions in which has been well proved unto you. Its not me that's doing it. Its well researched people who have been in the business for years who have researched the bible both front and back and know the bible most certainly a lot better than you or I ever will, No offense. Oh and btw, I DO NOT only use The Secular Web to get my information. I verify other websites to back---it---up. But some contradictions are so point blank obvious that its truly a joke. I think the best one I've come across is. . .
MT 27:37 The inscription on the cross read: "This is Jesus the King of the Jews. "
MK 15:26 "The King of the Jews. "
LK 23:38 "This is the King of the Jews. "
JN 19:19 "Jesus of Nazareth, The King of the Jews. "
That to me is truly priceless. Its also unforgivable in a book that is supposed to be perfect. Well its not and neither is its god. Not by a long-shot. After all its god invented man. That right there in imperfection with all of his heart attacks, Diseases, Broken legs etc.
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