The Instigator
Michael201
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
WaffleBadger
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points

Does the God of the Bible Exist?

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 2/21/2019 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 625 times Debate No: 120417
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (9)
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Michael201

Con

First, I"d like to put emphasis that this a debate about the CHRISTIAN god"s existence, Not the Muslim, Hindu, Or any other god. Please don"t argue for the existence for any but the Christian god. Therefore, When I say God, I mean the "Christian" god.

My first argument against God"s existence is the fact that we suffer. The Bible goes on about how all-loving he is, But if he is indeed all-loving and omnipotent, Why does he make us suffer? Why do we experience grief, Pain, Fear, Etc? God can stop it if he wanted too. Seems cruel of him to let us suffer.

My next argument is why believe in the Christian god? There are lots of other gods, Such as the Jewish or Hindu god. Why shouldn"t I believe in those gods and instead believe in the Christian god? What makes the Christian god different?

The Bible also contradicts scientific fact. One example is that the Earth is 4. 6 billion years old, Not 3, 000. Then there are stories such as Noah"s Ark that are fairly illogical. How can you fit two of every species on a boat? How do you feed them? How do you make sure the carnivores don"t eat any of the other animals? I could go on.

Another point I"d like to bring up is if there is a god, Who created it? What was before God? Then what created the thing that created god? You could just go on and on with this line of thought.

Best of luck to my opponent.
WaffleBadger

Pro

Praise be to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ for giving me this opportunity to share what he has revealed to me to anyone who may read this.

I will address your arguments with respect, And I will strive to stay on topic and provide an answer for all your questions. (I feel bad to be at a slight advantage over you from the start since I have the support and help of the God of the universe. . . )

Here goes:

1) If he is all-loving and omnipotent, Why does he make us suffer?

Yes, God is all-loving and all-powerful (omnipotent), But the REAL question is, "Why does he let us live? ".
God does not make us suffer. Instead, He spares us from his devastating and unimaginable wrath day to day because of His goodness and mercy.

2) Why our God, And not Allah, Brahma, Etc. ?

The greatest and most praiseworthy difference in our God is the way he relates to his creation. John 3:16 states that "He gave his only son". Every other religion and god (lowercase "g") requires a certain amount of work to be saved, But Jesus Christ CAME TO US and DIED FOR US! Name a single other deity that would die for their creation. Only the loving God of the Christians would ever so selflessly and sacrificially extend his blessings to his children.

3) The Bible is not 100% scientifically accurate/probable (e. G. Noah's Ark)

I confess that biology or the scientific world in general is not my forte, But I do know a few things about Noah's Ark. For instance, The Biblical account says that God told Noah to bring two of every creature, "according to its kind. " Now, The word "KIND" in this particular instance pertains to the group of animals, Such as the Dog Kind, Or the Cat Kind. Therefore, Noah would only need to bring one pair of canines who would represent the Dog Kind and only one pair of Felines to represent the Cat Kind. That way, Noah would have a lot less animals to bring on board. Also, It is also probable that Noah could have brought young animals onto the ark, Not full grown pachyderms or immense lizards thus cutting down on food consumption, Waste, And space needed. I would suggest you take a trip to the ARK ENCOUNTER in Kentucky, Where they made a replica (to scale) of the ark where they present many answers to questions like yours.

4) Who created God? Who created the thing that created God? Etc.

This is one of the hardest concepts of God to grasp as finite and simple minded human beings, But we believe that he "was and is and is to come" (Revelations 1:8 ESV). In other words, He is beyond time; he is not limited by the fourth dimension. He had no beginning, And therefore no creator. He is the creator of all things, And no one can compare.

The floor is entirely yours, Good sir.
Debate Round No. 1
Michael201

Con

Thanks for the response. Sorry this took a little while. Now on to the debate.

"Yes, God is all-loving and all-powerful (omnipotent), But the REAL question is, "Why does he let us live? "".

I"m not entirely sure why you brought up this question. I don"t think it has anything to do with the question I brought up. Neither does it answer my question.

"God does not make us suffer. "

I disagree with this sentence entirely. If the god of the Bible exists and does indeed control everything, Then that means he has brought upon pain and suffering onto pretty much every living thing on this planet. If he exists, He could put a stop to our suffering.

"Instead, He spares us from his devastating and unimaginable wrath day to day because of His goodness and mercy. "

I wouldn"t call God good since he brings so much suffering upon us. It"s him who started all the wars and genocides that have occurred throughout our history, Lets millions of children die from cancer, Brings upon disease -- I could go on and on. In my opinion, He isn"t sparing us at all. Yes, He could make our lives much worse, But still, He has made so many people"s life"s a misery.

"Every other religion and god (lowercase "g") requires a certain amount of work to be saved, But Jesus Christ CAME TO US and DIED FOR US! Name a single other deity that would die for their creation. Only the loving God of the Christians would ever so selflessly and sacrificially extend his blessings to his children. "

What I think you"re saying (if I am ever get something wrong in this debate, Please let me know) is since God sent his son to die for us, That must mean the god of the Bible is THE god. Why exactly does that make this god the one and only true God? Plus, How do you know that Jesus Christ was the son of God? What evidence is there to support that claim?

In regards to the third question about Noah"s Ark, I will admit I made mistake in saying every "species" and not every "kind". However, That"s still a lot of animals to fit on one boat, Even if Noah did only bring them when they were infants. And if Noah did bring two of every kind of animal on board, How come there are so many different species of each kind of animal? There are so many different types of dog, Like a Poodle or a German Shepherd. If Noah only brought on say two Labradors, Where did Beagles, Alaskan Huskies, American Eskimos, Etc, Come from?

Plus, There is no evidence that the flood ever happened, And there is no evidence that the ark was built.

"He is beyond time; he is not limited by the fourth dimension. He had no beginning, And therefore no creator. "

This answer seems to be a bit of cop-out. We can"t prove nor can we disprove this claim. It"s like if you said there is a monkey in the corner of the room that you can"t detect through any of our senses or through any other means. We can"t prove it since there is no way to detect it -- yet we can"t disprove it since it"s technically still possible for there to be a monkey in the room that you can"t detect.

Again, Best of luck to you. If ever you felt I was being disrespectful or said something incorrect, Please let me know.
WaffleBadger

Pro

I praise God for giving me such a respectful and serious debate unlike others I have seen out there.

I have given quite a bit of thought, Research, And prayer to the following responses (I hope your questions may be appeased)

1) God allows suffering, Therefore he is not good.

First of all, I believe that we started all of these terrible events (Holocaust, Black Plague, Etc. ) due to our first disobedience to Him in the garden of Eden where we doomed ourselves to constant decay and death, Thus causing all of the problems we see today. Even though he allows such things to happen, He is still good because everything that happens in this world, From the splitting of a cell to the bombing of Hiroshima, Displays his glory and points to his ultimate goodness. In a nutshell, He allows it to happen for the greater good.

2) How do we know Jesus is who he said he is?

Because he is Lord.

Allow me to explain. There is a prevalent argument out there called Lord, Liar, Or Lunatic. If Jesus was not Lord, He was either a Liar (because he claimed to be God's Son) or a Lunatic (because only a madman would claim such things). We know that he is not a liar because no conscious liar would die for the lie he fabricated, But then he could just be crazy. We know he was not a lunatic because of his other perfectly sane teachings that anyone (regardless of religion) would agree to. But I believe that the most incredible, Visible, And glorious evidence of his deity was his Resurrection from the dead. After he came back to life, He appeared to hundreds of believers who were amazed and inspired to share their story thus beginning the quick rise of the Early Church.

Alright. Now it's time for science. (This is not my area of expertise, As you know, So correct me if I state anything incorrectly)

3) How did all the variations of animals we see today originate from Noah's Ark?

I believe that the two dog-like creatures that Noah had on board (or any other animal) were incredibly genetically diverse. As in, They had many many MANY hybrid genes whereas the variations and special breeds of today have more and more homozygous (two of the same allele) genes, Thus losing genetic variety.

4) Where is the evidence for the Flood?

Much of the evidence for the Flood is also claimed to be evidence for years and years of evolutionary process. For instance, Lower strata containing simpler organisms can either prove macroevolution in which less advanced species existed before and were fossilized first, Or it can prove the process of the Flood in which less "advanced" (and therefore weaker/slower/less intelligent) organisms were killed, Buried and fossilized first under the rampaging muddy waters as more "advanced" (and therefore stronger/faster/more intelligent) survived for a bit longer and therefore were buried last and higher up.

5) How can an invisible, Undetectable, And hidden God be proven?

Wow. Good question and analogy.

Your question is a bit off, So you are doubtful. Yes, I agree that God is Invisible and hidden for the time being, But he is not totally undetectable. Romans 1:19 - 20 states that, "what can be known about God is plain to them, Because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, Namely, His eternal power and divine nature, Have been clearly perceived, Ever since the creation of the world, [g] in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. "

God is detectable. God is working among us, Even as I type. He has changed the lives of many people who would be glad to tell you their testimonies of His undeniable work in their lives.

God bless you,

Your turn.
Debate Round No. 2
Michael201

Con

"First of all, I believe that we started all of these terrible events (Holocaust, Black Plague, Etc. ) due to our first disobedience to Him in the garden of Eden where we doomed ourselves to constant decay and death"

Just because ONE person (Eve) was disobedient, That doesn"t mean that every human AND animal should suffer. Wasn"t my fault that Eve ate the apple. Why should I be punished for it?

Also, If God controls everything, Why did he allow Eve to disobey him?

Lastly, It seems a bit extreme to doom the entire human-race to suffering only because of a disobedient action.

"He is still good because everything that happens in this world, From the splitting of a cell to the bombing of Hiroshima, Displays his glory and points to his ultimate goodness. "

I"ll say it again: God isn"t good if he allows events such as the bombing of Hiroshima to happen. Yes, He has done a lot of good, But he has done way, Way to much bad to be called "good".

"In a nutshell, He allows it to happen for the greater good. "

How do you know this?

"We know that he is not a liar because no conscious liar would die for the lie he fabricated"

Fair point actually.
"We know he was not a lunatic because of his other perfectly sane teachings that anyone (regardless of religion) would agree to".

Could Jesus not of just been delusional? Plenty of good, Wise people can fall under delusion.

"After he came back to life, He appeared to hundreds of believers who were amazed and inspired to share their story thus beginning the quick rise of the Early Church. "

The resurrection happened years and years ago. The story has been passed down from generation to generation. Details get mixed up when a story is told from ear to ear. A story might come out completely different after it"s told so many times. It"s like the game Chinese Whisper (or Telephone).

"I believe that the two dog-like creatures that Noah had on board (or any other animal) were incredibly genetically diverse. "

What proof do you have that the animals on the Ark were this genetically diverse?

"Lower strata containing simpler organisms can either prove macroevolution in which less advanced species existed before and were fossilized first, Or it can prove the process of the Flood in which less "advanced" (and therefore weaker/slower/less intelligent) organisms were killed, Buried and fossilized first under the rampaging muddy waters as more "advanced" (and therefore stronger/faster/more intelligent) survived for a bit longer and therefore were buried last and higher up. "

If it is either macroevolution or the flood, How do you know IT IS the flood and not evolution?

"Good question and analogy. "

Thank you, But I didn"t come up with that analogy myself. It"s heavily inspired by the Russell"s Teapot analogy. Here"s a link to what that is if you"re curious -

https://en. Wikipedia. Org/wiki/Russell%27s_teapot

"Romans 1:19 - 20 states that, "

How do you know that what the Bible is saying is correct? How do you know it truly is the word of God? What proof do you have?

Looking forward to seeing your reply. I very much enjoyed debating with you. Maybe one day we should do another :).
WaffleBadger

Pro

WaffleBadger forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
9 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 9 records.
Posted by croweupc 3 years ago
croweupc
@waffleBadger

You said you take the flood account by faith. Is faith a reliable method for determining truth? What belief is not possible to accept on faith? I would argue that the flood is far more unrealistic. Evolution is a process of change over time, Whereas the flood story would require rapid evolution to repopulate the Earth with the verities we see today. Plus, How did the sloth get to the Amazon? It would be easier to just kill mankind with a plague, Sparing only Noah and his family. This story is not logical.
Posted by WaffleBadger 3 years ago
WaffleBadger
I am so sorry for letting the time slip by, I meant to post a concluding statement.

I guess this will have to suffice:

(I will keep it concise)

1) We all suffer from the sin of our ancestors because we are their offspring. Just as good things can be inherited, So can bad things, And we all inherit sin from our parents. Also, If you were in Adam and Eve's "shoes", You probably would have done the same thing eventually.

2) God can allow bad to occur while remaining good just as a soldier can use a "bad" thing such as a weapon of war to accomplish the greater good. God allowed Eve to disobey because through the redemption of His creation, He can be glorified, And God's glory is always good. It is the GREATEST good.

In every bad thing on this earth, God's name is lifted higher.

3) Jesus was definitely not delusional because of the lasting impression he left on history through his compassion, Love, And wisdom. No truly delusional man can be wrong about one major thing yet be so right on so many other things at the same time. There's bound to be contradiction, Even though Jesus never contradicted himself in a way that proved his alleged deception and/or delusion.

4) The Bible is true because of the many prophecies fulfilled throughout and even to this day, Its ability to apply to us even to this day, And the unusual absence of contradictions in a book with over 40 different authors. Therefore we know that, "For no prophecy was ever brought forth by the will of man, But men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. " 2 Peter 1:21 (New International Version)

5) Why the Flood account over the theory of macroevolution?

Well, At that point it's just a matter of Faith, My friend.

Once again, I thoroughly enjoyed this productive debate as well.

Thank you for bearing with me.

Closing thoughts: I will pray for you and your investigation of the credibility of God's presence, But I challenge you to seek Him. If you truly seek
Posted by TheBoldDebator 3 years ago
TheBoldDebator
Nice debate!
Posted by croweupc 3 years ago
croweupc
Noah is an easy story to falsify if you are taking it to be literal. Hugh Ross has the most logical position for a Christian, But most take the story literally. If you study biology, You would learn that species are very adaptive to their environment. How did penguins survive, Or the sloths? What about Kangaroo? These animals are only found in certain parts of the Earth. The Noah"s ark story didn"t happen, Not globally.
Posted by omar2345 3 years ago
omar2345
"He had no beginning, And therefore no creator. He is the creator of all things, And no one can compare. "
This is an unfalsifiable claim. So basically you have no evidence for this being true nor can someone else since we cannot observe what it is you are talking about. You made claims that have no evidence.
Posted by omar2345 3 years ago
omar2345
"It is also probable that Noah could have brought young animals onto the ark, Not full grown pachyderms or immense lizards thus cutting down on food consumption, Waste, And space needed. I would suggest you take a trip to the ARK ENCOUNTER in Kentucky, Where they made a replica (to scale) of the ark where they present many answers to questions like yours. "
So basically you found an explanation to the Noah's ark with animals but do not know how they survived on the boat? What God was not bothered making that detail clear? Then you point to a pseudo-scientific museum.
Posted by omar2345 3 years ago
omar2345
"John 3:16 states that "He gave his only son". "
So basically your argument is that it is says it in a supposed holy book. Okay so why aren't you apart of any other Religion with a Holy book?
Posted by omar2345 3 years ago
omar2345
""Why does he let us live? ".
God does not make us suffer. Instead, He spares us from his devastating and unimaginable wrath day to day because of His goodness and mercy. "
You gave a question that you did not answer. My answer is that God loves being a dictator.
Posted by WrickItRalph 3 years ago
WrickItRalph
Oh dear, You think that God dying for us was a big deal. For God, That's like taking a bus down to earth. Hanging out for a bit, And then taking the bus back to heaven. Thanks for the visit God. You never return my calls after we partied.
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