The Instigator
emsiblook
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
idisagreewithyou
Pro (for)
Winning
1 Points

Does the Patriarchy exist to oppress women?

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
idisagreewithyou
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 2/11/2019 Category: Society
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,045 times Debate No: 120211
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (21)
Votes (1)

 

emsiblook

Con

Men and women have equal opportunity to gain power. How I see patriarchy is that men tend to be the ones in roles of power despite this, But not because of oppression. As a woman, I do not feel like men are constantly out to oppress me. The idea that men have kept women in the kitchen out of some malicious plot to be the gender with the power is ridiculous. It suggests that its been a kind of men vs women war for millions of years and men have always come out on top. Women are 50% of the population and they've had all the decisions being made for them throughout the whole of history? So that's a belief that exists.

Convince me of it ^_^
idisagreewithyou

Pro

So I'd like to start by stating most leftists (at least most serious leftists) don't believe there's some maniacal plot to push women down, But alternatively, The patriarchy is cultural and there are plenty of studies that will side with this position, This will be what I'm arguing in this debate.

A study (1) called 'The Scully Effect' shows that people choose job opportunities and, Possibly, Grow their personality based off of influences within the media they consume and the culture and society they live in. With that being said, We can correlate this with the amount of women in STEM fields. Before home computers and consoles existed, The amount of women in STEM were comparable to men (2), But when home computers/consoles were commonly available, It has decreased drastically, This caused by the fact that these products were generally advertised to men, This is seen as one of the factors on why women generally stay away from STEM fields. Other factors include toxic attitudes towards women in STEM and prevailing unhealthy biases (3). This is only one of many examples of culture bringing women down, Maybe I'll bring them up later on during the debate. Sources will be commented on my account.
Debate Round No. 1
emsiblook

Con

So then you have to ask, Why do these 'unhealthy biases' exist? Not just against women by the way, Against men too, And I can discuss that in future rounds if we need to. My argument is that cultural influences are based on our biological differences, Which reflect what each gender tends to prefer. There are a few exceptions but generally, Men and women will have these differences. It's not a case of what one gender has been pushing onto the other against their will.

In terms of personality, For example, Women are higher in the Big Five trait agreeableness, Depression and anxiety, And dependant personality disorders, While men are more prone to alcoholism, Antisocial personality disorder and learning disabilities. When you list all the countries from the least egalitarian (Albania and Algeria) to the most egalitarian, Which would be the Scandinavian countries; the more egalitarian the country is, The more different these gender traits are; they don't even overlap. (1) This is because when you remove cultural influences, The biological influences maximise. Because genders are influenced to plump for roles which are not equivalent to their personality, They rebel.

Along with this, Females tend to be less interested in STEM fields and excel in them less in these countries. It starts early. Even when they do excel in them more than boys, They tend to have an even higher ability and interest in subjects such as reading comprehension. Translating this to careers, There is 1 male nurse for every 19 female nurses and 19 male engineers for every female engineer.

So the idea is that males tend to be interested in things and women are interested in people, And we can link that to high testosterone levels in men, And the fact that throughout most animal hierarchies, Males will be the gender to hunt for food and protect the female and her infant, While females will be the loving, Caring hand to her infant. These still exist, With agreeableness involving feelings of maternal compassion. Gender roles are very biological and have had a role to play in hierarchies and the role of sexual selection for 350 million years, So when you think about that it becomes hard to keep gender differences as surface level as 'genders are forced this way and that way'.
idisagreewithyou

Pro

I don't think I will be able to change your mind in regards to gender roles so I'd like to drop that argument if that's okay with you, If you want to argue on the legitimacy of gender roles we can start a new debate after.

Concerning the differences between men and women, I will concede that men and women have differing personality traits, I wouldn't argue that men and women aren't different, But these Scandinavian countries that you've listed (with the exception of Denmark) are incredibly egalitarian when it comes to the workplace, And all of these countries have made efforts to get to where they are now when it comes to gender equality (4), This is remarkable evidence that the large gender gap in the workplace comes from outside forces and, Like these Nordic countries, If you make an effort to get rid of obstacles for women you can close this gap (not entirely but a significant amount), Which puts a hole in the idea that men and women pick different jobs because of their biology.

If you could, Can you give me a source on the "men like things, Women like people" argument, I couldn't find it anywhere so it's a little hard to argue it's validity. Looking forward to your response.
Debate Round No. 2
emsiblook

Con

emsiblook forfeited this round.
idisagreewithyou

Pro

awww why didn't you reply :(
Debate Round No. 3
21 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by idisagreewithyou 3 years ago
idisagreewithyou
@emsiblook
I regards to your second comment, I think my response to that will be in our second debate.
Posted by idisagreewithyou 3 years ago
idisagreewithyou
@emsiblook
It's alright you coudn't meet the dead line and thanks for providing a source on your 'men like things, Women like people' position, But I'd like you to state that the paper you sourced is a theory interpreting statistics and is not hard-fact, While this doesn't delegitimize your source I just wanted you to understand this source isn't an end-all be-all on this topic. Relating to the Scandinavian source however, I believe you're misreading your own source, Relating to personality, Women have large differences in these Scandinavian countries compare to men (your source). But when it comes to the work force, These countries (excluding Denmark) are very egalitarian among the sexes, At least compared to other countries (4).
Posted by omar2345 3 years ago
omar2345
@emsiblook

One other thing so that I can provide a response.
Do you believe in free will?
Posted by omar2345 3 years ago
omar2345
Correction
representation in a particular due
representation in a particular field due

Next time I am going to thoroughly read my response before entering it in.
Posted by omar2345 3 years ago
omar2345
Correction
which did give women a disincentive women to go into STEM.
which did give women a disincentive to go into STEM.

So many mistakes sorry.
Posted by omar2345 3 years ago
omar2345
Correction

What does happiness got to do with it? They chose the job and they did not like it.

I find these stats talk about emotions which are not the best way to find data. It is like taking a survey. You must accept people can lie, The creator of the survey can be biased and only used some women in a sample size in order to fit a narrative like what Peterson is doing. Basically saying women should stay home by not actually saying it.
Posted by omar2345 3 years ago
omar2345
Correction
Can any of that be blamed of the culture?
Can any of that be blamed on culture?
Posted by omar2345 3 years ago
omar2345
Correction
for men.
for women.
Posted by omar2345 3 years ago
omar2345
@emsiblook

"With the rise of Postmodernism and women being pushed into getting jobs, Especially in STEM, Along with raising children (because society never influenced men to do that, They only influenced women to go into careers) they are now much unhappier than the late 1950s and 60s. "
What does happiness got to do with it? They chose the job and they did not like it. As a culture before the Scully effect or other hindering cultural factors which did give women a disincentive women to go into STEM. When you hardly see female representation in a particular due to media portrayals that does have an impact on what women would pick.

"This is because along with their increased independence, They now have much more responsibility"
What kind of general statement is that? Are you telling me women can't handle responsibility?

"they are pushed to have a career as well as a family, Which is a lot harder. If you think about STEM, "
I don't know where you get your news from but this is dumb. You are either telling the truth stating women are pushovers or you are lying about the data. Would like evidence of women being pushed into having a career.

"They are such complex fields"
Don't give me that. Women are not stupid and in some cases out perform men. Give me evidence of STEM being too complex for men.

"positions often have to work 60 hour work weeks and basically make that their whole life"
You are also making the claim women are less committed. That also requires evidence. You definetely think less of women even though I am guessing since you are interested in men are one.

"Is that as women in these intelligent positions reach 30, A lot of them drop out to raise children. This is true for Scandinavian countries"
Scandinavian has other issues which I am not well versed in so I will just assume you are right but would like evidence.

"They can choose to stay at home and look after the children. "
Can any of that be blamed of the culture?
Posted by emsiblook 3 years ago
emsiblook
@idisagreewithyou @omar2345

In response to the Scully Effect, With the rise of Postmodernism and women being pushed into getting jobs, Especially in STEM, Along with raising children (because society never influenced men to do that, They only influenced women to go into careers) they are now much unhappier than the late 1950s and 60s.

This is because along with their increased independence, They now have much more responsibility; they are pushed to have a career as well as a family, Which is a lot harder. If you think about STEM, They are such complex fields that people in these positions often have to work 60 hour work weeks and basically make that their whole life, So they also earn a lot as a result. What you find though, Is that as women in these intelligent positions reach 30, A lot of them drop out to raise children. This is true for Scandinavian countries where there is a causal relationship between economic stability and egalitarianism; STEM-driven women by this time are often married, Their husbands earn a lot because people tend to go for partners who are of a similar level to them in economic class; so they don't need all the money they're earning. They can choose to stay at home and look after the children.

Again, Women have the choice, So biology takes over.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by EverlastingMoment 3 years ago
EverlastingMoment
emsiblookidisagreewithyouTied
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Total points awarded:01 
Reasons for voting decision: While the debate is clearly rich in facts and substance, Con providing an interesting cultural and biological case and Pro bringing in intriguing phenomenons, the debate did come to an unexpected halt due to forfeiture. While I do want to vote based on the matter presented, I do feel that there was more to the debate that Pro was ready to debate but Con's absence killed the moment. Therefore, I'm choosing only to award points based on better conduct.

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