The Instigator
Justin108
Con (against)
The Contender
Tip_of_the_Iceberg
Pro (for)

Does the crucifixion story make sense?

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 6/5/2018 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Debating Period
Viewed: 462 times Debate No: 114983
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (3)
Votes (0)

 

Justin108

Con

This is arguably the core of the Christian faith that Jesus died for our sins and made it possible for us to live for eternity in heaven... but why did Jesus have to die in order for us to have our sins forgiven?

God makes the rules. There is no "God HAD to sacrifice Jesus" because God can do anything.

Christians often say that God cannot let sin go unpunished as it would be unjust; but is it any more just to sacrifice an innocent man on behalf of a guilty man? If a man rapes a little girl and the man's brother offers to go to prison on his behalf, would this be justice?

If god is satisfied by punishment without guilt (Jesus), why is he not satisfied with guilt without punishment?
Tip_of_the_Iceberg

Pro

If there"s one thing the Bible makes clear it"s this: sin equals death.
Romans 6:23 says that "the wages of sin is death."
Romans 5:12 says that "death spread to all men because all sinned.
James 1:15 says that "sin when it is fully grown brings forth death."

This list can go on and on. God hates sin, and death is the punishment He created for sin. This doesn't show God's limitations but just the opposite. If sin went unpunished, it would taint God's perfect nature, but because sin leads to death, sinners are separated from God through death.

Even though we are sinners, God loves us and doesn't want to be separated from us. This is where atonement comes in. Throughout the Old Testament, sinners needed to atone for their sins through animal sacrifice. Lambs, rams, and other animals without defect were sacrificed to God so that the OT sinners didn't have to die.

We could've just gone sacrificing animals again and again, but this only temporary covers our sins. God gave us the one eternal sacrifice: Jesus. His blameless life qualified Him as the only human ever to be able to die for the sins of all of humanity. Just as animals were sacrificed so Old Testament sinners could live, Jesus was sacrificed so that people from the New Testament to the present could live.

You're right in saying that sacrificing an innocent man on behalf of a guilty man is unjust. If we all got what we justly deserved, we'd all have eternal death. That's what justice would look like. God loves us too much to give us what we deserve though, He is merciful. Google's definition of mercy is "compassion or forgiveness shown toward someone whom it is within one's power to punish or harm." It is in God's power to punish us with a one-way trip to hell, however He shows us mercy in sacrificing Jesus so that we have the option to go to heaven.
Debate Round No. 1
Justin108

Con

"If there"s one thing the Bible makes clear it"s this: sin equals death."
A few follow-up questions
1. Whose death? Does the sinner have to die? Or can someone die in his stead?
2. If someone were to never sin, would they be immortal? If someone managed to not sin once, would it be impossible for them to die?

"God hates sin, and death is the punishment He created for sin... If sin went unpunished, it would taint God's perfect nature"
- So death is the punishment for sin. Isn't it crucial to the concept of punishment that the guilty party is the one being punished? If so, why did Jesus (the innocent party) get punished for the sinners (the guilty party)?

"Throughout the Old Testament, sinners needed to atone for their sins through animal sacrifice."
- Why? How is this justice? Why would God accept this? If a man was sentenced to death for the rape and murder of a child, do you think it would be justice if he instead killed a goat and went free? How is the concept of scapegoating at all just?

"God gave us the one eternal sacrifice: Jesus."
- As mentioned in my OP, if a man rapes a little girl and the man's brother offers to go to prison on his behalf, would this be justice? Why would God allow an innocent man (Jesus) to take the punishment of a guilty man (sinners)?

"You're right in saying that sacrificing an innocent man on behalf of a guilty man is unjust... God loves us too much to give us what we deserve though"
- Ok then why doesn't he just forgive our sins WITHOUT killing Jesus?
- Earlier you said "if sin went unpunished, it would taint God's perfect nature". But now you're saying God does exactly that ...he leaves us unpunished. If he punishes JESUS but not US, then WE remain unpunished. Why does this not go against God's nature?

"It is in God's power to punish us with a one-way trip to hell, however He shows us mercy in sacrificing Jesus so that we have the option to go to heaven."
- Again... why does he not show mercy by simply forgiving us without sacrificing Jesus?
Tip_of_the_Iceberg

Pro

A few follow-up answers:
1. 1 Corinthians 5:21 says "For our sake He made Him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God." All of our sins were put to death up there on the cross with Jesus. His innocence allowed him to bear the sins of the entire world so that we wouldn't have to. So yes, Jesus can take our place. The SIN is still being punished. That's what's important. God's nature is still intact. No, it's not fair. No, it's not justice. It is mercy. It is grace. It is love.
2. First of all, there is a difference between physical death and eternal death. After Adam and Eve sinned, physical death entered the world, along with the threat of eternal death. Jesus died a physical death to save us from eternal death if we put our faith in Him. Every person will still die a physical death, but now we have a chance to escape eternal death (hell) and earn eternal life (heaven). A lot of your claims fall apart from this difference. There WERE Old Testament rules saying to punish crimes like murder and rape, sometimes with physical death. No animal sacrifice was going to save you from that. What the sacrifices symbolized was the sinner's repentance from sin and their faith that someday, God would send a Sacrifice to cover up all our sins. They would still be punished with physical death, but they would receive the promise of eternal life. Putting that tangent aside, to actually answer your question, I'd need some examples of people who have gone their entire lives without sinning once. I can't seem to think of any besides Jesus. Can you? (Here's a hint in Romans 3:23: "For ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.")

"Your OP example:"
Tell me this: is the rapist's brother TRULY innocent? James 2:10 tells us that "whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it." Even if this brother was a really nice, kind, loving person, chances are that he's told a couple of lies throughout his life, had lust at some point, and maybe dishonored his parents once or twice. That's only 3 of the 10 Commandments, but he's considered to have broken all of them, making him guilty. Jesus, on the other hand DID keep the entire law without breaking any of it once, making Him truly innocent and worthy to sacrifice His life for all of us. Therefore, your example doesn't accurately match this situation. I'll still answer your questions though. A:"Would this be justice?" -nope. It's called mercy. God shows it to us because B:" Why would God allow an innocent Man (Jesus) to take the punishment of a guilty man (sinners)?" He loves us and gives us the opportunity to be forgiven.

"Can forgiveness come without Jesus' death?"
You're right, God can do anything. Because He can do anything, He chooses to make the rule that sin results in death, as I've previously stated. He loves us, and doesn't want us to die, so He sends His Son to take our place, as I've previously stated. Let's say hypothetically though that He did choose to forgive us without sending Jesus to die. What would be the point of that? If Jesus never died, He would never be able to rise from the grave. He would never be able to commission His disciples into spreading the good news. There would be no good news! Christians wouldn't have anything to believe in, or anything to tell others so they too could believe. Unless you're saying that everyone would be forgiven no matter what, whether they believe or not. Riddle me this: would THAT be justice?
Debate Round No. 2
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Debate Round No. 3
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Debate Round No. 4
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Debate Round No. 5
3 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Posted by Justin108 3 years ago
Justin108
I couldn't respond to the debate in time. So following this debate, I've posted a part 2.

http://www.debate.org...
Posted by Justin108 3 years ago
Justin108
@Dr-maybe are you listening to yourself? Even if the Bible doesn't make any sense, you're still willing to blindly follow it?
Posted by Dr-maybe 3 years ago
Dr-maybe
The bible does not ask for you to make sense of it but have faith. If didnt have faithbefore now is a great time to look into your question again, it is amazing what was written and what has come true. Also you can read a section and it comes. The bible supports flat earth and wicked walking the earth.
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