The Instigator
Our_Boat_is_Right
Pro (for)
Winning
9 Points
The Contender
dustryder
Con (against)
Losing
8 Points

Donald Trump Should not be Impeached: Change my Mind

Do you like this debate?NoYes+1
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Vote Here
Pro Tied Con
Who did you agree with before the debate?
Who did you agree with after the debate?
Who had better conduct?
Who had better spelling and grammar?
Who made more convincing arguments?
Who used the most reliable sources?
Reasons for your voting decision - Required
1,000 Characters Remaining
The Voting Period Ends In
06days08hours01minute10seconds
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 10/10/2018 Category: Politics
Updated: 3 days ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 469 times Debate No: 118514
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (68)
Votes (3)

 

Our_Boat_is_Right

Pro

I believe there is nothing impeachable about President trump. Feel free to try and change my mind.

NOTE: You do not have to change my mind to win the debate. Voters choose the winner on a 7 point system, And who they think made the best arguments, Regardless of whether my mind was changed or not.
NOTE: DO NOT ACCEPT THIS DEBATE IF YOU ARE GOING TO BE OFFLINE FREQUENTLY. I WANT COMMITTED DEBATERS ONLY. NO FORFEITS.
dustryder

Con

To be clear, Impeachment is based upon convictions of Treason, Bribery or other High Crimes and Misdemeanors. The later category serves as a subjective catch-all for undesirable behaviour. Hence outside of proven and convicted cases of Treason or Bribery there is nothing that strictly demands impeachment. However I do hope you'll take this small list into consideration

Abuse of office -
Nepotism: Some members of President Trump's immediate family serve in official capacities in the Trump administration. Ivanka Trump for example, Has even, On one occasion, Filled in as Secretary of State.
Self-enrichment: President Trump has not divested himself from his businesses. When utilizing locations owned by the Trump Organization, Taxpayer money is funneled into his pockets.

Competence of office -
Domestic relations: President Trump has shown conduct unbecoming of POTUS on a number of occasions. Some examples include the p***y grabbing tape, The central park five, Birtherism, Miss universe locker rooms, The stormy daniels case and other alleged examples of sexual assault and bigotry. He is a habitual teller of untruths and has enacted many unpopular decisions. The result of this is that he is an extremely unpopular president. If popularity is the factor in which he is elected president, Unpopularity should also be a factor when considering his exit.
Work ethic: President Trump has visited his golf courses an extraordinary amount of times. By some counts, 1/3 of the days of his entire presidency. This constitutes dereliction of duty.
Foreign relations: The US under President Trump has seen a significant drop in relations with many countries. Perception of the US in other countries have dropped as well. The President cannot be effective at his role if he cannot work with other countries to better relations
Debate Round No. 1
Our_Boat_is_Right

Pro

President Trump has not divested himself from his businesses. When utilizing locations owned by the Trump Organization, Taxpayer money is funneled into his pockets. "
No, He is using to build the greatest economy and lowest unemployment rate we've had in years.

Trump has denied most sexual assault allegations. They also can not be proven. He is innocent until proven guilty.
Trump's approval rating by many communities, Including the blacks, Has risen dramatically.

Foreign relations: You are wrong on this one. Trump has prevented possible nuclear bombs from North Korea, And built a great relationship with Kim Jon Un. With Russia, He has made progress with Putin. I would say he is doing a great job actually.

Conclusion:

Nothing about this is impeachable, Which was the topic being discussed.
dustryder

Con

"No, He is using to build the greatest economy and lowest unemployment rate we've had in years. "

How does this relate to his self-enrichment? How has his self-enrichment built the greatest economy and lowest employment rate?

"Trump has denied most sexual assault allegations. They also can not be proven. He is innocent until proven guilty.
Trump's approval rating by many communities, Including the blacks, Has risen dramatically. "

None of this contradicts my point about his conduct or his popularity

"Foreign relations: You are wrong on this one. Trump has prevented possible nuclear bombs from North Korea, And built a great relationship with Kim Jon Un. With Russia, He has made progress with Putin. I would say he is doing a great job actually. "

You have mentioned Russia and North Korea. Without establishing the truth of what you've said, Note that my point was made about countries globally, Not specifically Russia and North Korea. Some of my examples may include the countries that comprise the EU, Mexico, Canada, China and African nations.

I note you've ignored some of my other points (nepotism and work ethic). Please respond to them.
Debate Round No. 2
Our_Boat_is_Right

Pro

So I take it that con has conceded the debate since he is not arguing that Trump is impeachable, But rather about whether he is a good president. So I guess this debate has metamorphosed into whether he is a good president, Which I will go along with. Now onto the arguments.

1. So what If he didn't give up his businesses? Why would he? You are acting like thriving a business and gaining money is a bad thing. He actually passed on his businesses to his sons.

2. Yes it does. Just because an allegation is made doesn't make it true, So until proven, It should not be counted toward his conduct. He is becoming more popular, Like I said, The approval rating for him is going up. This is why he won the election in 2016, And why he will be re-elected in 2020, Mark my words.

3. I feel like you expect him to have world peace already. Some leaders are corrupt, For example, Canada is ripping us off with tariffs and all that, So what is he supposed to do? Don't act like Obama or some other president obtained world peace, Obama was the one who paid Kim millions of dollars to get back a couple refugees. Trump didn't pay him a penny, And got more back.

4. Nepotism- Very rarely does he do it, Or if he does, It is like a substitute teacher when it is for a short period of time. I don't think he had hired his family members to specific positions.

5. Work ethic- Whatever, He likes golf. All the SJW's always pick on him. He is getting stuff done, Which is all that matters.

Conclusion-

nOnE oF tHeSe ThInGs ArE iMpEaChAbLe.
dustryder

Con

Ah, I see I did not make myself clear enough. Again, Impeachment under high crimes and misdemeanors is a subjective catch-all category. There is no specific behaviour that allows for impeachment under this category and it purely up to the discretion of congress. Hence any president may be impeached for any range of behaviours, Ranging from blowing his nose at the wrong moment, To shooting a person in broad daylight. The argument, Then, Is not whether Trump has specifically committed any action that mandates he must be impeached, But whether he has committed any action or has any characteristics such that one might reasonably conclude that he should be impeached for (and to convince voters of that). I made my previous points that President Trump is impeachable based upon his abuse of office and competency as president. I argue that being a "good" president is an excellent metric for impeachment as I see impeachment akin to being fired from a job.

1.
To make the situation more clear, Americans work and pay taxes, With the reasonable expectation that those taxes will be collectively used to improve their lives for example in terms of roadworks, Healthcare or schooling. A portion of those taxes are already set aside for the use by the President. However another portion of those taxes are spent at his businesses. Those taxes would've otherwise been spent to improve the lives of Americans, Instead they now enrich President Trump. This is clearly an abuse of office as he is receiving funds he has no right to.

2.
You'll note that my argument consisted of more than sexual assault allegations, Hence why I said that you did not contradict me. Because the negation of a part is not the negation of the whole. His conduct overall is poor and unbecoming of POTUS. And of course, He is still overwhelmingly disliked as a president.

3.
It is a fact that global perception of American has gone down and that many relationships have been marred in the course of Trump's presidency. This shows that he is incapable of effective leadership, Especially with other leaders of the world.

4.
It is not an issue of how often it is done, It is an issue of it being done at all. The two examples of this are Ivanka Trump, Advisor to the President and Jared Trump, Senior Advisor to the President. Both clearly do not have the requisite qualifications or experiences and hence this is an abuse of office.

5.
But how is not excessive golf play dereliction of duty?

I understand your attempts at justifying, Normalizing and rationalizing his behaviour. Unfortunately, Your justifications fall flat in the face of objective truth. Donald Trump is a poor president. However it is not enough that he is a poor president, He has abused his office and besmirched its dignity. Based on these facts, I think President Trump should be impeached.
Debate Round No. 3
Our_Boat_is_Right

Pro

1. So how do you know Trump is using federal tax dollars for his own businesses?

2. Please explain other instances of "more than sexual assault allegations". And don't just list them, Explain how it was "poor conduct. "

3. Please provide examples. I provided mine.

4. Can you explain more about "requisite Qualification"? This is very minimal for presidency and should not be considered a "high crime or misdemeanor". Many other president's have done this as well, And is just the left trying to pick on him.

5. Lol, It is not "excessive golf play. " Again, This is just the left picking on him. Obama did the same thing. There is no specific rule on how much time you have to work or be in the White House.

The thing about determining "impeachment" based on a president's good or bad performance in the White house is not a great measure for determining it. This is because whether he is "good or bad" is all based on perception and opinion.
dustryder

Con

1.
I made no claim that Trump is using federal tax dollars for his own businesses. I'm not privy to Trump's spending habits. Regardless, The fact that he is enriching himself off his office is an abuse of power, And hence he should be impeached

2.
Access Hollywood tape - Vulgar remarks about woman, Near admission to sexual assault and cheating. Hopefully it is implicitly understood why vulgar remarks and implied sexual assault and cheating constitutes poor conduct.
Central Park Five - Engaged in a witch hunt of 5 accused men. Unapologetic and maintains his stance despite irrefutable evidence to the contrary. Poor conduct because it shows an inability to admit fault and disrespect. Obviously there is also the undertone of racism given the central park five were black.
Birtherism - Engaged in conspiracy theories of Barack Obama's birth location based on no evidence. Poor conduct due to undignified behaviour and stupidity in jumping to a conspiracy theory and disrespect to a duly elected official
Miss Universe locker rooms - Multiple accounts of Trump walking into women's changing rooms with women inside changing. Later admission by Trump that he performs such behaviours. This is disrespectful and creepy.
Storm Daniels - Trump cheated on his wife with a porn star and then attempted to cover it up. Obviously this isn't the first recorded case of cheating. I consider cheating to constitute poor conduct

And of course there are multiple events of hypocrisy and dishonesty.

I believe these events serve as a good basis for Donald Trump's poor conduct. Obviously, It does depend on what one constitutes good and bad conduct. However, I do believe that in the role of POTUS, One should have exemplary behaviour and be of the highest character, As he is a role model for future generations. Donald Trump lacks this, And hence should be impeached

3.
In terms of public opinion: www. Pewresearch. Org/essay/from-maga-to-metoo-a-look-at-u-s-public-opinion-in-2017/
In specific examples:

Canada - Trump stated that Canada was a national security threat despite Canada being one of the USA's closest allies. He has also described Trudeau as dishonest and weak. In addition he has applied tariffs (to which retaliatory tariffs were made)

African nations & Haiti - Trump has allegedly described the aforementioned countries as shitholes

Iran - Trump withdrew from the nuclear deal in a breach of trust

Mexico - Trump has asserted that a wall will be built along the border, And that Mexico will pay for it. In addition he has applied tariffs (to which retaliatory tariffs were made)

EU - Trump has applied tariffs (to which retaliatory tariffs were made). In addition, Several heads of member states have openly made remarks that suggest a lack of faith in Trump. For example, France and Germany.

4.
Certainly. A bachelor's degree in economics does not qualify one to fill in as Secretary of State or to give advice to the POTUS. Your feelings of what is minimal and what isn't matters very little in the face of objective truth. Nepotism is an abuse of office and hence President Trump should be impeached.

5.
The POTUS is not a pizza delivery driver. He is the man charged with the most responsibility in the country and is the greatest figure the country has to offer. Spending 25-33% of your time playing golf in the role of POTUS is dereliction of duty. It shows he is incapable of taking the role seriously and hence should be impeached.

Just as a reminder, Whataboutism such as you've attempted to use in 4 and 5 has no place in debates
Debate Round No. 4
Our_Boat_is_Right

Pro

1. What do you mean by enriching himself? He passed on his businesses to his sons. This is ridiculous.

2. These are all allegations, Like the Miss universe one. Vulgar remarks is perception of the situation and freedom of speech. Admitting fault and disrespect is also perception of the situation. On birther-ism, It was his opinion, And your opinion of "stupidity. " He had a good reason to believe that as Obama's grandmother said he was born in Kenya, And he may have forged his certificate as there is evidence to that. Stormy Daniels- everyone makes mistakes. He made one. Move on and get over it. These were all before his presidency as well, So he can't be impeached for them.

3. Canada- Their leader is pathetically weak. It is not illegal to criticize another leader. They are ripping us off an taxes and stuff, So Trump had no choice. Again the tariffs are a policy issue.

Nigeria and Haiti- just allegations. Some people denied it, And he did as well.

Mexico- Yes, He will build a wall. Enforcing borders is not impeachable.

EU- Another policy issue- nothing impeachable.

"Several heads of member states have openly made remarks that suggest a lack of faith in Trump"
Maybe they should be impeached for such atrocious conduct to the president. This lack of respect is poor conduct and they should be impeached for mental health issues, And poor conduct which is clearly a misdemeanor.

4. Trump did not pay them for filling in. Nepotism is not even illegal or impeachable.

5. Trump is a workaholic my dude. He goes to bed at 1 and wakes up at 4. He is very hard-working, And its not like he spends the whole day golfing, Unlike Obama who was a lazy scrub who woke up past 6.

Conclusion: These things are tick-tacky nitpicks that are not HIGH crimes or misdemeanors, And half of them weren't even while he was in office. VOTE PRO!
dustryder

Con

1.
Donald Trump still receives financial reports from the Trump Organization. This shows that he is inextricably tied to the Trump Organization, Despite being POTUS. This maintained close relationship to the Trump Organization means that he has enriched himself off of taxpayer dollars. This is an abuse of power and hence he should be impeached

2.
Obviously these cases are not mere allegations. For example, The access hollywood tape, The central park five case and birtherism are all well-founded and established. In the birtherism case in particular, Obama's grandmother did not state that he was born in Kenya nor is there evidence of a forged birth certificate. A cursory google searched revealed this as such. Being unable to perform due diligence before making such claims against the previous POTUS is not good reasoning. The other two cases have sufficient evidence behind them to place them past allegations.

Now having said all this, I feel you've completely misunderstood my point in using these examples. It is not to highlight "bad stuff" he did, And therefore be impeached for them. It is to show what kind of president Donald Trump is. What his character is like, What are his flaws and to highlight traits of the role-model citizen of the USA. More importantly, It is to examine if this conduct is becoming of the POTUS. My examples have shown that he is a hypocrite, A liar, An infidel husband, Impulsive, Lacking in wisdom, Perverted, Stubborn, Disrespectful and vulgar and you've failed to defend him otherwise. Having the opinion that "I don't even wait. And when you're a star, They let you do it. You can do anything. Grab them by the p***y. You can do anything. " is a simple matter of perception is not a defence for the crassness of that particular line.

These are not the characteristics of POTUS and his conduct is unbecoming of his office. Hence he should be impeached

3.
Again, You've completely misunderstood my point in using these examples. My point here was not to criticise Trump on specific examples of foreign policy, But to highlight his disastrous attempts at engaging with leaders globally. He is incapable of interacting with foreign leaders in any meaningful sense. He has created tension with many countries considered to be allies and public perception of America has gone down globally.

A leader of a country is expected to competently engage with other leaders of foreign countries. Donald Trump cannot do this and moreover has made himself an embarrassment in the eyes of many other nations. He has tarnished America's prestige and crippled it's capability of negotiating with foreign countries and hence should be impeached.

4.
To paraphrase your entire argument on nepotism, He doesn't really do it. If he does it, It's harmless and minimal. But it doesn't matter because it's not illegal or impeachable and anyway, Other presidents have done it. So many shifting viewpoints, One could possibly be deceived into thinking your position was weak.

Donald Trump has allowed for nepotism into the Whitehouse. These positions given to his daughter and son in law are not insignificant positions and include roles in meeting with foreign leaders and dignitaries as well as advising the president. Neither are qualified, In experience or learning. This is unethical and an abuse of power, And hence Donald Trump should be impeached.

5.
Evidence is required to justify such claims. Your conviction of what he may or may not do is not evidence. Nor is your whataboutism on Obama relevant.

My point stands. Donald Trump has golfed excessively, At a rate more than any other president. This is a dereliction of duty for which he should be impeached for.

For my final remarks, Apparently I must remind you, For the 3rd time, That impeachment under high crimes or misdemeaners is a subjective catch-all category. Every point that I have made is both unimpeachable and impeachable, For the the decision to impeach lies solely at the discretion of congress. This debate was solely to argue whether Donald Trump SHOULD be impeached and to convince readers of that.

In the case of nepotism for example, You have said that it is not impeachable. However under the category of high crimes and misdemeanors, Nepotism is an entirely impeachable offense. Furthermore you have failed to argue why nepotism shouldn't be an impeachable offense.
Debate Round No. 5
68 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by backwardseden 1 day ago
backwardseden
@dustryder - "You two are obviously biased for/against Boat" Nope sorry. I wasn't. Trump should clearly without question is required to be impeached. Be that as it may and shoveling that aside in which I did. . . It was up to Boat to present AND prove his case in which he did not. He made the claim. He needed to prove his claim. He had terrible resources. You by far presented an honest winning case in which case Boat didn't respond to what you stated and thus at nearly every single instance ducked, Eluded and did not cover. When he did, He gave extremely simpleton answers which were not acceptable.
Now this is entirely his problem. . . He's only 15. He acted like a spoiled brat frustrated 15 year old. He's trying to play in an adult world in which he is totally unable to do. Did it affect my voting? Me knowing this? No! But his answers and what he stated clearly did come from a 15 year old and it shows. So it matters greatly by his writing style, By him clearly not having done proper research, By the fact that no matter what his teenage ego did interfere and no matter what you were to have said NOTHING would change his mind. His mind was already made up before he started this debate! Etc etc etc.
You win without question and there's no bias on my part.
Posted by dustryder 1 day ago
dustryder
On nepotism: There is a difference between violating nepotism laws, And it being nepotism.

On Trump's golfing: None of what you've said proves that he's doing anything other than recreational activities while on his golf course. Nor have you proved that he's a hard worker. If you have a source from a non-biased 3rd party observer by all means bring it forth.

On Obama's golfing: I gave multiple reasons on why I think Donald Trump should be impeached. I intended them to be taken as a collective rather than by part. That said, Obama's rate of playing golf is significantly less than Trump's anyway.

Aside: You repeated an easily verifiable conspiracy theory. You did it again AFTER I negated it the first time. I'm not sure what rational basis went into that particular opinion, But it isn't the basis of a free-thinker who forms his own opinions.

Another aside: I can't believe I have to say this but, Don't vote if you cannot be impartial. You two are obviously biased for/against Boat
Posted by Our_Boat_is_Right 1 day ago
Our_Boat_is_Right
I have formed my own opinions as well. Just because I have the same political ideology as them does not mean I'm a baby listening to everything they say and repeating it without any rational basis, Facts, And statistics.
Posted by PointProven 1 day ago
PointProven
When I mentioned your age, I never said you couldn't have political views at that age. Quite frankly, I could care less how old you are considering I am pretty close to your age myself. I was just using that as a reason to believe that it is very likely that you are just listening to what your parents are telling you about the world rather than forming your own opinions.

"Quite ironic that your 17. Do you listen to whatever your parents say? "

No I don't. I question things and form my own opinions. My parents are christian and have taught me to believe in god since I was a toddler, Yet I'm an atheist. My parents have a huge boner for Trump whereas I think is a retard. Granted, I don't like Hillary any better, But that is beside the point.
Posted by Our_Boat_is_Right 1 day ago
Our_Boat_is_Right
It is also unclear whether Trump played golf on his visits to golf courses. He also uses golf to talk to lawmakers and members of congress. Your little thing about Trump should be impeached because he golfs is just rediculous and is in no way dereclition of duty. Impeachment has become a political issue for the democrats now. If I was going with all your statements, I could find several things impeachable about Obama. However, Even though Obama sucked, Him golfing is not impeachable.
Posted by Our_Boat_is_Right 1 day ago
Our_Boat_is_Right
On the whole golfing delusion, It does not matter ho many days he is at a golf course. It matters how much time he does. He does not spend the whole day golfing. A typical 9 hole course would take an hour 30 at the very most. It is true he goes to bed late and wakes up at 4. He admits he's been a workaholic his whole life.

If you think playing golf is impeachable, Should Obama have been impeached? (real question)
Posted by Our_Boat_is_Right 1 day ago
Our_Boat_is_Right
I never asked con for sources. I will provide sources if they are asked for.
Posted by Our_Boat_is_Right 1 day ago
Our_Boat_is_Right
On nepotism, The Justice Department concluded Trump hiring Jared Cushner will not violate federal anti-nepotism laws.
Posted by zhaod1 1 day ago
zhaod1
Our_Boat_is_Right
Where's the source for your claim? Isn't it hypocritical if you make claims about Obama without sourcing but say that to people that make claims about Trump?
Posted by backwardseden 2 days ago
backwardseden
@PointProven - "I have no idea why you include "Change my mind" in your debates when it is obvious that no one can ever change the way you think. " That is EXACTLY right about the host of this truly ignorant debate and or anything he thinks, Dreams or wishy-washes in his cotton ball meathook useless brain. So what's the point in having a debate with him in which in his mind he's already drawn up his own conclusions no matter what. Even if someone were to agree with EXACTLY what he was to know and think, He would still manage to find fault with that person. Its one of the major reasons, Though nowhere near to all, Why I have not entered a debate with him.
3 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Vote Placed by zhaod1 8 hours ago
zhaod1
Our_Boat_is_RightdustryderTied
Agreed with before the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Agreed with after the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:-Vote Checkmark-2 points
Total points awarded:32 
Reasons for voting decision: Con states reasons for why Trump is a bad president, which I agree. However, Pro effectively refutes the points, implying that just because a president may not be effective and may have a poor rating doesn't mean he should be impeached. Con also claims crimes that the Trump committed, yet Pro correctly stated there's not enough evidence. Con also uses a source to prove his rating and give an alleged claim, but Pro didn't have any sources.
Vote Placed by Masterful 8 hours ago
Masterful
Our_Boat_is_RightdustryderTied
Agreed with before the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Agreed with after the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Who had better conduct:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:Vote Checkmark--2 points
Total points awarded:60 
Reasons for voting decision: My source and conduct vote are a counter vote to backwardseden's unjust vote. No sources proved points, no conduct was poor. Con made allegations regarding the Trump scandals, Pro stated that Con needs to provide evidence and Trump is innocent until proven guilty. Con put forth no evidence. Con made the allegation that Trump still has ties to his business and should therefore be impeached, yet he did not explain why. Con makes the point that Trump got Ivanka a job in the office and has therefore abused his power of office, Ivanka could have got this job due to her fathers influence, rather than, Trump demanding she be employed, Cons argument was not strong here, also Con must have forgot about first ladies. Con stated that Trumps spends a lot of time playing golf, but does not show this impacts his functionality as PotUS. The burden of proof was on Con and he failed to meet that burden.
Vote Placed by backwardseden 2 days ago
backwardseden
Our_Boat_is_RightdustryderTied
Agreed with before the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Agreed with after the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:-Vote Checkmark-2 points
Total points awarded:06 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro did not pay any attention to what Con had to say. It was up to Pro to prove that Trump was not impeachable. He didn't. Con clearly had better resources which were all verifiable and concise. Pro?s resources were questionable at best. Con clearly had better arguments in which Pro had no answer for so Pro eluded them and only gave simpleton answers which don?t work.