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backwardseden
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cfossedal
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Eight reasons christianity is false

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 3/5/2019 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 699 times Debate No: 120632
Debate Rounds (4)
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backwardseden

Pro

Taken from. . . Atheist Alliance International:
There is very little that we can prove in this world. We can look for evidence to support claims people make and when there is robust supporting evidence, And no contrary evidence, We can conclude a claim is probably, But not definitely, True.

However, It is easier to prove something is false"all you need is one piece of contradictory evidence. So, What about Christianity? Is there evidence that contradicts, Or casts grave doubt on Christianity? I think there is rather a lot.

To keep this article brief, I will describe the falsifying evidence without giving all the sources and details but, Actually, Most of it is so well-known, That even Christians should be aware that this evidence exists.

1. There is clear evidence that prayer does not work despite the Bible promising prayers will be answered.

2. There is clear evidence that humans invent gods. Humans have invented so many gods that the default assumption should be that a god is a supernatural entity invented by humans. Christianity would need solid evidence that the Jewish god is an exception to this rule but there is no such evidence.

3. There is clear evidence that religions and gods are propagated through culture by infecting children, And no evidence that they are propagated by gods.

4. There is clear evidence that Christianity has evolved as human understanding of the world has changed whilst a real, God-given religion, Should never need to change.

5. There is clear evidence that humans on this planet have unequal access to Christianity so, If Christianity were true, Billions would be condemned to hell for no fault of their own. This contradicts the Christian notion that God is omnibenevolent.

6. There is clear evidence that the Bible, Supposedly inspired by God, Is liberally sprinkled with the type of errors we would expect from its Iron Age authors but would not expect from the creator of the universe.

7. Christian theology is incoherent to the point of absurdity. God killing his son so he can forgive our future sin is like me breaking my son"s legs so I can forgive my neighbor in case she ever parks her car on my drive. It is quite ridiculous.

8. There is clear evidence that the arguments presented for the existence of the Jewish God are logically flawed"all of them have been shown to be unreliable. If this were not the case, All honest and intelligent people would accept that God exists, Just as all honest and intelligent people accept that black holes exist.

All that is left for Christians is faith and their feelings. We know that faith and feelings can be used to believe in any god at all"including non-existent gods. So faith and feelings cannot help us determine if Christianity is true.

But that is all Christians have.

Rules:
Prove christianity to be true.
dsjpk5 is disqualified from the voting procedures. He tries to pretend he's a god, But he's not.
cfossedal

Con

Third (serious) debate taken up on this site.

There is really nothing we can prove in this world or any other, Because our means and perspective are limited compared to the natural universe. This is especially true of the supernatural aspects of the universe, Where we only have God's revelation and the gifts of reason and wisdom to interpret it. Strictly speaking, You are correct in that Christianity cannot be "proven. " But I believe it can be demonstrated beyond a reasonable doubt to contain the fundamental objective truths about the supranatural aspects of the universe we can't immediately perceive of our own power. First, To address your arguments on their face:

1. There is clear evidence that prayer does not always work the way we want it to, And the Bible acknowledges this. Secondly, There is evidence to suggest that prayer can work, Especially in charismatic areas like healing and conversion.

2. The fact that humans have invented gods does not mean that there is no true God. The evidence is in the history; the relics and the continually self-cross-referenced scripture (which points to Christ as the Messianic figure).

3. (Refer to 2). Supernatural miracles are evidence that Christianity is instituted by a potent God. Discarding the evidence to fit the theory does not constitute scientific lack of evidence.

4. I don't argue this point. Christianity has become corrupted over time, Often for the intention of over-evangelization or convenience. The Bible and the Catholic fathers teach that most people, Including most Catholic priests, Go to hell.

5. The notion that God is "omnibenevolent" is not a common Christian doctrine. God is "all-good, " but He is also just, And part of His justice is defined in how He acts. Giving people the free will to chose their own destiny is benevolence in a different form than some people perceive. It gives meaning to our choices and elevates our dignity to that above angels.

6. The Bible discusses many things, And cannot be read through just any interperative prism. There is such a thing as understanding and knowledge which brings us to truth. There are many different interpretations versions of the Bible today written to conform to particular beliefs. Most of them lose their authority when they lose grasp of their cross-referencing and particular literary interpretations.

7. Christianity is absurd, But not so incoherent. Man sinned against God. God is a just being, And there is a price to be paid for disobeying Him, Which is a supreme sacrifice since He is a supreme being. Man cannot provide this on his own, But God is so completely loving of the Human race that He is willing to provide that sacrifice Himself. Christianity makes a rational sense in that Christ's blood potentially provides for all the sins of the world (Rom. 5:15) and because Christ had power over death anyway. But Christianity is not meant merely for our rational comprehention, But for the love and glorification of an Almighty, Loving God (Je. 32:38, Rom. 11:33).

8. (Circular argument)
Debate Round No. 1
backwardseden

Pro

"Third (serious) debate taken up on this site. " Well zap zang zowie, Zap zang zinglebort everything"s fine.

"There is really nothing we can prove in this world or any other, " Oh boy I"m in for someone who doesn"t know what they are talking about (shutters to the ghost of a spinning wheel). WRONG! A mathematical equation can and is proven. 2 + 2 = 4 no matter which language you speak. Your god can be disproved no matter which language you speak. Mathematical equations are the only facts that there are. Even better, Stephen Hawking Hawking and his colleague came up with a mathematical equation proving that something does come from nothing. In other words, Your god was not needed to have created the known universe.
Now your god has not been proven by anyone, Not ever in the history of the human race, Not by anyone. But then again, Why would anyone want to? Neither has any god from any religion. Neither has anything from the deep dark areas of the supernatural.
"Where we only have God's revelation and the gifts of reason"" Woah there cowbore, Don"t include me and billions of others with that "we" because "we" can reason without your unproven terrorist god who hates children, Is a homicidal maniac, Caused massive genocides simply because others wished to worship other gods and this god of yours threw out his spitoon of in his words evil, Anger, Vengeance, Vengeance, Rage, Fury, Jealousy etc. Which are human baggage emotions, Thus showing off his super crybaby stints of murdering babies, Children, Pregnant mothers (abortions to you in which you so-called christians, Don"t worry, There"s no such a thing as a christian) just because he"s jealous. Its hideous, Pathetic, And no god would ever have these traits of superego god complex in which your bible is entirely about and nothing else.
"Strictly speaking, You are correct in that Christianity cannot be "proven. " But I believe it can be demonstrated beyond a reasonable doubt to contain the fundamental objective truths about the supranatural aspects of the universe we can't immediately perceive of our own power. " Um no. For that you would have to have faith. Sorry, That"s asking the brain to become like a brand new knife that is sharpened to become dull.
"Why would you believe anything on faith? Faith isn"t a pathway to truth. Every religion has some sort of faith. If faith is your pathway you can"t distinguish between christianity, Hinduism, Judaism, Any of these others. How is it that you use ---reason--- in every of the other endeavor in your life and then when it comes to the ultimate truth, The most important truth your"re saying that faith is required and how is that supposed to reflect on a god? What kind of a god requires faith instead of evidence? " Matt Dillahunty

"Faith is the reason people give when they don"t have evidence. " Matt Dillahunty

"Faith can be very very dangerous, And deliberately to implant it into the vulnerable mind of an innocent child is a grievous wrong. " Richard Dawkins

"Faith is the great cop-out, The great excuse to evade the need to think and evaluate evidence. Faith is the belief in spite of, Even perhaps because of, The lack of evidence. " Richard Dawkins:

Btw, I really don"t know what the problem is with so-called christians is they can"t READ? Is that so hard? I gave full credit to where I got the article from. So these arguments are not my arguments. They come from elsewhere.
1. "There is clear evidence that prayer does not always work the way we want it to, " No prayer doesn"t work at all. There"s 0% medical evidence that prayer works.
"And the Bible acknowledges this. " The bible acknowledges what? Oh you mean a book that no god would be stupid e or dumb enough, Not ever, Not for any reason, To use text, Namely your bible as a form of communication, The worst form of communication possible? There are a good 50 reasons why this is so, Well that is only true if your unproven god is remotely intelligent. I"m hoping that you are intelligent and you can think of a couple of them. I will tell you a few of them in a couple of RD"s later if you can"t figure them out. But I"m sure you can. "Secondly, There is evidence to suggest that prayer can work, " not medically. "Especially in charismatic areas like healing and conversion" Healing from a bad motorcycle accident? What about a popped zit that my toad may have had on his eye? A mockery? Yes. That"s because "I"ve seen the ill-effectiveness of prayer. You truly have no ideas, None, As to what true suffering is. I could tell you some true stories that would turn your soul black. And then I would tell you about me. Conversion? Well that"s not a reason to prove the effectiveness of prayer.

2. "The fact that humans have invented gods does not mean that there is no true God. " Let"s put it this way, Until ---any--- god from ---any--- religion stops playing the biggest games of hide-n-go-seek of all time, No god exists. And there is no reason to think otherwise, Especially with the christian god. Oh yes, You got that one right, Especially with the history. Slavery, Your god issues the death penalty for those that are gay, Those who blaspheme, Those who work on the sabbath, Those who curse at their parents, Those who don"t worship your god, Those who commit adultery and the NT is far worse than the OT.

3. "Supernatural miracles are evidence that Christianity"" WOAH and yet there"s never been one proven miracle ever recorded. "is instituted by a potent God. " You still have to prove your god exists. Here"s a video for you to watch that took place on Sunday. It might clear things up for you. It fits perfectly with your confusion and your obvious brainwashing.
https://www. Youtube. Com/watch? V=JQqjI78uHkE It starts at the 1:21:00 mark

4. Um no, Christianity has always been corrupted. You have a messiah in which, Like your god cannot prove has ever existed, And even if so, Most certainly had no "magical healing powers", And if existed was not in any possible way the messiah.
Pay attention closely:
*Proverbs 30:5 "Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. "
*Isaiah 40:8 "The grass withereth, The flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever. "
*2 Timothy 3:16 "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, And is profitable for doctrine, For reproof, For correction, For instruction in righteousness:"
*Psalm 19:7 "The law of the Lord is perfect, Converting the soul: the testimony of the Lord is sure, Making wise the simple. "
*Psalm 119:160 "Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever. "
* James 1:17 "Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, And cometh down from the Father of lights, With whom is no variableness, Neither shadow of turning. "
In other words god"s word is PERFECT. It cannot be changed by anyone or anything. Christ, Being the lowly drab that he supposedly was in which like god who in which nobody can even prove has ever existed could not change god"s perfect word. Makes sense?
Your god also never gave your christ any magical powers to change any of his laws such as not working on the sabbath, So by right, Christ should have been executed by god"s "perfect" word.
There are ---many--- more reasons why from the very beginning christianity was never christian because of a false messiah.

5. According to your bible, In which once again, No god would ever be stupid enough to use text, Your god was never just because his main concern was his frail fragile ego, Just like the worst president of all time, Donald Bunny Slippers Trump. I mean something is very wrong when 4 of the 10 commandments are geared towards an all inspiring ego. Something's very wrong when there"s NOTHING geared towards children. No ego would ---ever--- take place from any god, It would have been dumped long before man was rockin" in the cradle. Here"s another thing in considering that, Not once has there been peace for any length of time, Not anywhere at anytime for more than 30 years under your god"s helm since your god"s inception. Its because god isn"t just and because there"s so much waring and hate.
"You"ve got 3 religions of peace all worshiping the same god of love and forgiveness, And yet they"ve been at war, Continuously, Ever since their inceptions. " Aron Ra

6. The bible really doesn"t discuss many things, Just like Donald Junior Beef Burger Trump doesn"t discuss much either except himself. Its discusses god"s superior ego god complex and everything else falls into that hell hole. Hey satan gets to say how many nouns and verbs? But wait, God gets to kill, Oh sorry murder babies, Children and pregnant mothers for a grand total of 2, 821, 364 and for a grand total of the other side in which is supposed to the devil and or evil, In which god himself spawned evil and has admitted to being evil, Well satan 10. Hmmm where does the math add up? Yah know what the most preached thing in the bible is? Its faith. It should be love, Kindness, Care, Harmony, Peace etc etc etc. Its not damn it. Its faith in which no god would have a need of.

"There are many different interpretations versions of the Bible today" There. You just solved one major reason why your unproven god would never use text.

7. Christianity is absurd, Actually christianity is incoherent. In 2010 there was a study done with 33, 830 denominations of christinaity. It absolutely is 100% incoherent because there"s no consensus. And you think there"s "one" god?
"Man sinned against God. " Um no, There"s no such a thing as sinning because in order to sin, You have to have a god.
Man certainly can provide on his own. What do you think man did before POOF the belief in god showed up and excuse the language f--ked everything up?
"God is a just being" Um no, The B. O. P. Is always upon you too, No exceptions, None because after all why should atheists care and or try to prove something that never existed?

I'm out of space.
cfossedal

Con

Well zap zang zowie, Sorry for being so naive as to try to introduce myself to my opponent. But I'll give you one more chance to behave yourself.

("WRONG! A mathematical equation can and is proven. ") No, That is evidence for your perception of 2 plus your perception of 2 coming about to your perception of 4. Even if it is a fact, It is not a universal truth, As those facts (numbers) mean totally different things when applied to different formulas.

I didn't say nothing comes from nothing, Which really is an argument that nothing comes of nothing IN THE NATURAL WORLD, 0 = 0, Therefore everything that is had to come from the power of itself or a power sustaining it. What is necessary to understand is that it take omnipotence to bring something out of nothing because everything is the exact opposite of nothing.

I would like to see Mr. Hawking's mathematical equation you refer to: First, I suspect it has to do with a mathematical explanation for the balance of time matter and energy along a timeline which includes nothing, Like Einstein's TOR. Secondly, Just because something can come from nothing isn't "proof" that it did so on it's own. Third, Human science is fallible: The Theory of Relativity has been adjusted several times to fit new evidence about the universe.

God cannot be fully proved by anyone according to systems of scientific analysis and discovery (Deut. 6:16). This is partly because He also exists outside of and beyond those realms. If God was a mere scientific object, How could He be beautiful or loving? Those things can only be proved with wisdom, Not a microscope. Because atheism sees things through a PURELY materialistic lens, It is stuck with the same accusation it throws at theism: It cannot prove anything.

("Woah there cowbore, Don't include me. . . ") I think you mistook my syntax a little. I didn't mean to say you and billions of others believe in God, I was only trying to frame the debate to include common facts and circumstances which need considering.

(". . . Your unproven terrorist god who hates children, Is a homocidal maniac. . . Etc") For someone who doesn't believe in God, You sure do ascribe a lot of the actions and feelings of Human beings to Him.

("For that, You would have to have faith. . . Like asking the brain to become a brand new knife") Yes. It's something like that, And that's probably the biggest stumbling block for atheists in my experience. You have to be willing to look in a new direction or from different perspectives to discern what it is. This has been one of my main points.

Let me use another math analogy to make some sense: You wouldn't presume to know an entire shape just by knowing part of its edge or one of its coordinates on a plane, Would you? To understand the shape, You need more than one coordinate, The number of dimensions, And the curves/edges. The way to understand these aspects is to study the other aspects. Then you can formulate and know which coordinates are true/false.

In response to the first quote of Mr. Dillahunty, I would ask what truth is to him, And I would also ask why we don't know everything about the natural universe if science and reason are the

In response to the second, I offer evidence of miracles and exorcisms to point to God. Faith may be part of my own reason for behaving religiously, But it is not the only reason.

To respond to Mr. Dawkins, I've already watched him debate and one of his colleagues debate. I already know his opinion is militantly atheist.

1. There is evidence that prayer can help. Go visit Lourdes. Ask a few surgeons for their personal opinion. Watch the apparition at Fatima, Where thousands of people showed up just to laugh at the notion of the "silly Christians" who foretold the "sun dancing" (https://www. Youtube. Com/watch? V=kxok8ZoPgFM). Explain the countless visions of Jesus and Mary (and oddly various saints) who appeared to other prayerful holy persons like St. Bridged and St. Elizabeth. Explain the stigmata of St. Francis that was purported to have a "sweet odor" or the bodies of dead saints which remain undecayed for decades before they are exhumed. Whatever you can prove or disprove, Given personal events in my life, I cannot be persuaded to think God is not real.

The Bible acknowledges that prayer doesn't always work the way we want it to (2 Cor. 12:9). The best way to pray is to pray for God's will above our own anyway. It's not our job to "get whatever we want" on Earth by saying magic words: The point of prayer is to communicate with God. That means praising, Obeying, Worshiping, Being penitent, And being thankful for what He does give. I think one of the biggest misperceptions around prayers not being answered is that there aren't many holy or sincere people left in the world.

2. I don't fully understand your counter. My argument is that God is Love and Truth and that His justice is perfect, Not that any of us want it.

3. (See 1 in this response). I tried to watch your video, But it was deadlinked or auto-corrected, Maybe give me the title?

It sounds like some people were tricked on a Sunday. So? I know there's such a thing as optical illusions. I know people can be deceived in a crowd. Human understanding is fallible: That's why I don't worship science or Richard Dawkins, His prophet.

4. Christianity is not corrupt: People are. People misconstrue God's word by their actions and from their own wicked desires and sometimes as the direct intervention of God (Mark 4:12, And Paul's discourse in Romans over the place of the post-Messianic Jews).

To address the scripture you gave me, I offer that "the Word of God" often refers in the Bible (prophetically in the O. T. ) to Christ Himself who is perfect because He never broke any commandment. In reference to the law of working on the Sabbath, Christ reveals two things: That God is the author and not the subject of the law, And that Human interpretation for malintent is not a true embodiment of the spirit of the law, Without which the law is dead.

5. I suggest you actually read the histories and texts of different religions before taking such broad strokes at them, Or quote someone who was obviously riled up at the time to make such generalizations.

6. The Bible does discuss many things, And it's ordered and cross-referencing. I've got a big, Fat Jerusalem Bible here if you want to take a look at it.

But yes, People like to discard and add snippets to the Bible across history to justify their own opinions and make themselves feel good. That is not obedience to the truth, That is self-worship.

7. (same stuff as above) Man didn't do anything before his creation. God isn't just mankind's origin, But his purpose as well.

I've offered some examples of evidence. . . Maybe ideas or flukes of nature, Maybe all wrong, But SOMETHING. All you've done so far is rant about how God can't exist because it doesn't make sense to you and how life is unfair etc. The best of that is to reference someone else's mathematical hypothesis of how the universe might exist from nothing in the universe with or without God, Taking nothing into account whatever is above the universe (Gen. 1:1 ". . . And the face of God was hovering above the spirit of the waters").
Debate Round No. 2
backwardseden

Pro

You do understand that I am a very sarcastic person - correct? I also do not under any circumstance deal, At all, Not for any reason, With excuses, Aka fibs and or made up truths that cannot be proven. Wow did you do that in RD1. And I called you on them nearly every single time. I"m sure I missed a few. But that is to my own miscalculations.

So I"ll give you one more chance for you to behave yourself. Hmmmm I should end this debate right now. The belief in the god according to the bible shows one is ---never--- behaving oneself. I mean after all the god the bible never did that to begin with especially in the OT, Especially when nobody in the entire existence of the human race has ever proven that this god exists to begin with. Thankfully. But let"s see what yah got and how deep you can go before those errors and excuses begin to show in both flat out denial and brainwashing.
I will not deal with a "we" concept as you did in the first RD. That"s entirely on your own. You believe how you want to believe without proof of any kind as there"s not even a concept. Your god of the bible never even gave you an idea as to concept, Only a frail fragile superfluous monstrous ego.
When you say "we", You automatically assume that I and billions of others should believe as you. And in the process what you do is you in effect is declare war on us without proof of concept, Just as your god wants. Deuteronomy 13: 9-10 and Deuteronomy 17: 2-5. Just do as you are told, Because we not only believe differently but some of use like me for example, We 100% know differently and can prove it.
Please save "the law" bile changed things to take away from verses such as Deuteronomy 13: 9-10 and Deuteronomy 17: 2-5 because god"s law is supposed to be perfect and could not be changed by christ who was not god, But the son of god in which is a huge monumental difference who also cannot be proven ever existing. So since this is true, Then by your god"s law, You come on down here and kill me. Wait. You are not going to pay attention to your god"s law and NOT kill me? Why____? Why not___?

Let"s move on.
Well a mathematical equation being fact. I"ll take the word of my professor back in 92 who said that they were as well as the equation of something from nothing equation Stephen Hawking and his colleague over what you have to say is "my" perception. But wait, Your perception is god? What?

"I didn't say nothing comes from nothing, " Right. I know that? And?
Let"s look at 0. The Maya invented the number 0. That"s essentially nothing. They dreamed up nothing. So before they dreamed it up there was nothing before it. So again something does come from nothing. Makes sense?
"Which really is an argument that nothing comes of nothing" I never mentioned nothing of nothing. I mentioned "something comes from nothing" which is a HUGE monumental difference.

"I would like to see Mr. Hawking's mathematical equation. . . " Simply google "Stephen Hawking Something From Nothing" and you"ve got about 9, 170, 000 results.

OK good but not so good. So you"ve proven to take your bible literally, With the proof of Deuteronomy 6:16. So let"s give you a morality test and see how you do.
You say How could He be beautiful or loving? Those things can only be proved with wisdom, " Let"s prove unto you how false that is right now. If you answer "yes" to any of these 6 questions, It means that you are as immoral as your god. All of these 6 questions require a "no" answer. Now if you say "no" to any of these 6 questions, Then it simply means you disobey your god. Btw, 4 of these 6 questions are directly from your ridiculous 10 commandments. Of course these 6 questions have been pondered by millions of others, Possibly billions since your bible was first published and why is your god so cruel, Vicious, Hateful, Pure evil to have even dreamed up this crap and then put it into effect and then of course put it into print for god"s sake. So these 6 questions are NOT my ideals. They are all just simply ripped from your bible and they clearly show, Oh yeah "wisdom", "just", "free will" as you have mentioned of your god, Sorry does not exist and is tossed out the window especially when threatening people with death. Ready?
According to your god you should be put to death if you blaspheme. Do you think that's a proper belief? Y____? N____? Leviticus 24:16, According to your god you should be put to death if you work on the sabbath. Do you think that's a proper belief? Y____? N____? Exodus 31:14, And Numbers 15: 32-36, According to your god you should be put to death if you curse at your parents. Do you think that's a proper belief? Y____? N____? Exodus 21:17, Leviticus 20:9, Mark 7:10, Matthew 15:4, According to your god you should be put to death if you commit adultery. Do you think that's a proper belief? Y____? N____? Leviticus 20:10. That's directly from your 10 commandments. Here are some other things that YOUR god thinks you should be put to death for. . . According to your god you should be put to death if you are a homosexual? Do you think that's a proper belief? Y___? N____? Leviticus 20:13, According to your god you should be put to death if you do not worship him. Do you think that's a proper belief? Y____? N____? Deuteronomy 13: 9-10 and Deuteronomy 17: 2-5.

"(". . . Your unproven terrorist god who hates children, Is a homocidal maniac. . . Etc") For someone who doesn't believe. . . "
You want me to tell you how I got into not believing in your god" sure, Why not" I had a friend who was raped, Beaten and tortured by her stepfather at the age of 4 all the way up until 17 sometimes twice per week and then she runs away from home. That was only the start of her horrors. She then gets married has a kid. They get a divorce. The state takes the kid. She attempts suicide by jumping off of a high dive into a pool with no water. Of course she survives. The fall breaks her back so she can barely walk without severe pain. The hospitals will not give her anything to control the pain. So she turns to prostitution to buy cocaine and one other med I can"t think of the title right now? She then gets AIDS and dies. I seriously doubt if she had a single happy week in her entire life. But that"s not the worst. I have a lifelong friend who worked as a security guard and watched over patients at a psych ward and he told me of a girl age 6 who was raped so bad by her father that her a$$ turned into her vagina. I can"t even contemplate that. Neither can you. Now if your god exists, He knowingly created these kids to horrifically suffer for no reason at all except for the fact that he gets off on it. PE-IR-OD. YOUR god creates millions of kids to horrifically suffer every---single---year to horrifically suffer and for no reason. Here"s a question for you" What can children possibly learn from suffering? If you"ve answered "nothing", You"ve answered correctly. You have no comebacks because believe me, I"ve heard them all, Every single one of them. So save it.
Tracie Harris "If I could stop a person from raping a child, I would. That"s the difference between me and your god. He watches and shuts the door and you go ahead and you rape that child and when you're done I"m gonna punish you. If I did that people would think I"m a freakin" monster. "

"("For that, You would have to have faith. . . Like asking the brain to become a brand new knife") Yes. It's something like that, And that's probably the biggest stumbling block for atheists in my experience. " That right there shows that you have no idea, None, As to what and or who atheists are. None. Here is a great video to help you out"
https://www. Youtube. Com/watch? V=7o5h0DdcyTA&t=264s
I will be posting an new debate "Atheism is not a religion" shortly because its not as soooooo many think it is.

Well in using your math objectivity, We know what a circle, Rectangle, Square it. Now getting into other objects, It of course depends on how you are looking at them, Up, Down, Left right etc. However I don"t understand your point? Religion, God, There"s only one, Only one way of looking at this terror. READ THE BIBLE in which no god would, Once again, Be stupid enough, Not ever, Not for any reason to use text as a form of communication, The worst form of communication possible.

"In response to the first quote of Mr. Dillahunty, I would ask what truth is to him, And I would also ask why we don't know everything about the natural universe if science and reason are the" You didn't finish your question, So I don't know what you wanted to ask?
Truth to Dillahunty? Here"s a few videos of truth and more. Matt is a truly great debater"
https://www. Youtube. Com/watch? V=ne7rhb6cvw4 - Matt Dillahunty - Why Do You Mock the Bible
https://www. Youtube. Com/watch? V=NiJKYZpCP_w - Paths to Truth
https://www. Youtube. Com/watch? V=9kTiPmv8gSg - Morality & the Truth of Religion
Answering the second question if not in the videos: "Assume that we have no answer. Then the answer is "I don"t know". The answer isn"t "I can"t think of anything better, Therefore a god did it. ""Matt Dillahunty He's right. Man doesn't know everything. Religion/ christianity assumes man knows everything.

1. Once again, No sorry, There is no evidence that prayer works. Let"s be honest here because if it did ALL SUFFERING would cease. People who pray for their suffering to stop, If prayer actually worked, Their suffering would stop, And well since prayer doesn"t work, Their suffering continues just as your god wants. Its why according to your bible that jesus in which once again you cannot prove ever existed was created - which is the beginning of suffering. Truly horrific. Buddhists believe in the end of suffering. Well gee if someone knew nothing about religion, Which one would someone choose?

"The Bible acknowledges"" Who cares what the bible acknowledges? Its a fanciful storybook filled with danceable immoral characters that are required to be paid attention to its laws.

I'm out of space
cfossedal

Con

If you don't mind, I'm going to restructure my response a bit for organization and development. First I will address the problems of faith and burden of proof. We seem to have the most fundamental disagreements on these, Partly regarding definitions.

The concept of God is primarily that He is "hidden" (requiring faith to attain). God is also principally characterized (using "characterized" loosely; more accurately He fulfills those characteristics) by holiness and perfection.

"Faith" is simply a virtue, A fundamental one by which we acquire knowledge of God. Much the way continued observation and experimentation can "prove" something in science (until it is discredited or unless the observer is close-minded to the idea of the evidence), So can God be "proved" only by the virtue of "faith. " "Faith" can be as blind or revealed as God allows it to be, But it is impossible for any man to "force" God to reveal himself. It is impossible to "prove" God under a microscope or with weights and measures unless He subjects Himself to it. "Faith" is not the same as "belief, " but rather the willingness to believe and then obey as a result of that belief (James 2:19). From Faith, We advance to Hope.

Having come off a series of lectures on C. S. Lewis, Let me refer to him in a similar model of fundamental theoretical thought (which I hope provides a simple enough parallel): Imagination gives the capacity for Reason which is elevated to its highest standard by Truth. In a religious model of the theological virtues, Faith in God gives the capacity for Hope which is refined in Charity.

I'm also going to take a moment and stand by the "we" statement as valid. I am totally NOT saying that "we all have to obey God" (in fact, That would be a violation of freedom of conscience). "We" is not used in the sense that "we agree with the same values or come to the same conclusions, " or even to describe "we, " but rather "every universal truth or fact which we happen to have in common" (e. G. , Birds, Flowers, Light, Events, This debate).

Part of the problem people have in regards to the apparent inconsistencies of scripture are explained by what I described about the Bible: it covers a great many topics and has different answers for situations which are often similar. We need careful oversight and judicious interpretation when reading the Bible. The theme of "Joseph's coat" and the symbology of the Holy Spirit teach us that in addition to obedience and justice, Some amount of flexibility is required to be a complete person. The role of judging our eternal souls belongs to God.

Everything has a PURPOSE, Even if it's not understood, And a CAUSE, Even if it's not agreed on (e. G. , You came from something, And the purpose of your existence to debate me, Even if there's no higher moral imperative).

We ARE immoral; that's what Christianity professes. Your morality is arguably more ambiguous as mine, Because mine is predicated on a focus (God) rather than a self-constructed values system. People can be "brainwashed" into believing just about anything; How much easier is it to be brainwashed into a values system wherein there are fewer responsibilities (which leads to low self-esteem) and no final accountability to anyone for all the secret things of their lives?

Math is not "universal language" we sometimes make it out to be. Hawking's hypothesis/theory works more or less the way I expected it to: It attempts to explain the infinite "condensation" of universe before the Big Bang by applying an infinite or nullifying aspect to time (because it cannot be rationally conceptualized to a point). This problem is discussed in "Grand Design":

"The laws of nature typically describe how nature behaves, Using abstract mathematics. Those mathematical equations exist in our minds, Not in nature itself. " (Stephen Hawking, 2010)

Unfortunately for any evidence in favor of Atheism, This is another indicator of the timeline in Genesis ("In the beginning").

My answer to all of your questions (from the O. T. ) is "Yes, " people do deserve to die for all those offenses. Now that I've humored you by answering, Allow me to justify my answer. Every sin is an offense against an infinitely just God, Who is not only capable of bringing something out of nothing, But good out of evil. The entire Human race is already condemned to death by having sinned against God. However, The common "stoning in the O. T. " argument doesn't hold weight, Because God is the ultimate judge of life and death and eternity. While people still have the faculty to execute their fellows for offenses against God, That doesn't (necessarily) constitute a just process, Especially involving other sinners (John 8, 1-11).

In regards to your friends, I can only offer condolences and prayers.

Because of the fallen state of the world it is of chaotic nature. Whatever you believe in or don't believe in, There will be suffering and confusion mixed with joy and clarity. When we ponder suffering, It is not useful from a moral OR material perspective to consider what caused it (it is always because we are imperfect creatures capable of suffering) as it is to consider the purpose (such as training the body or to atone for any effects of sin in the world). There is a kind of human fallacy, "The horror of suffering, " which causes us to hate suffering and love comfort so much that people are not willing to suffer even minor inconveniences and love pleasure to the point of becoming insatiable. But suffering can be made to serve a purpose, Even if it is unclear.

And suffering is not to our detriment, Only indicative of the fact that people aren't perfect.

(Thank you for re-posting videos) I saw the shows, And it pretty much reaffirms my belief about the thought process of atheism, Which I've gone through myself and struggled to understand. I do understand that atheism is, At its heart, A rejection of theism because it has a higher demand than rational thought alone.

If you fundamentally reject one thing because of or unto another thing, That is a values system which you have "faith" in. You say many people suffer for or are killed in the name of religion, So God is a terrorist. So what? What consequence could that possibly have for you unless you believe something in regards to that? So the universe is the beginning and end of all itself and is self-justifying and self-explanatory. Doesn't that just prove there is a "God" called, "the material universe and rational thought? " It is not God which does not exist, It is Atheism (lit. "no theory"). What you really seem to be is a "Materialist" or an "Agnostic. "

In the videos, Matt Dillahunty and friends discuss truth v. Untruth, Good v. Evil in regards to morality. This goes back to the notion of cause/purpose. The Bible does explain this, And even satan uses scripture to "tempt Christ" (Luke 4:1-12). Priests and Pharisees attempt to catch Christ with double-sided questions which He dispenses with handily (Luke 20:1, Luke 20:19, John 8:1-11). Paul explains how men are not justified by the law itself (Gal. 2:16).

They make a good point about the imperative of morality, But is really indicitave of truth in morality, Not morality in truth. If you have a morality rejecting the existence/truth of a god, That morality is, For all intents and purposes, A "god" you have constructed on your own. Many moral norms (such as do not kill/steal) are only practiced because of the social contract and consequences of violating it, NOT because people genuinely have faith or are trying to impose religious values. Any God who is true would include such natural imperatives against doing harm anyway (and is re-emphasised in its purpose in the "Golden Rule").

As a side note, And speaking from a Catholic perspective- There is a Lutheran heresy I am debating elsewhere, Not exclusive to Lutheranism: "Solis fidelis" (salvation by "faith alone"). Similarly, Rational thoughts and ethics alone are worthless without a cause and/or purpose.

Finally, Apologies for the incomplete thought (what I meant was basically, A. "what is his truth" and b. "why don't we know everything about the natural universe itself yet, If science and rational thought are the keys to understanding everything? ") Also, The reason I refer to the Bible because: It is a primary source of Christian knowledge (the subject of this debate, The Christian God); it is considered a classical work; and to attempt to rectify what I believe are misconstructions regarding its meaning. If you can use Deuteronomy in a limited, Literal sense to demonstrate that God is unjust according to your own moral code, I can use the rest of the Bible to bolster my positions.
Debate Round No. 3
backwardseden

Pro

Well see you don"t get to refer to the bible, Not for any reason. That"s what you don"t get. Once again, And I"m really tired of repeating myself, Is because no god would be stupid enough, Not ever, Not for any reason, To use text as a form of communication, Namely your bible, The worst form of communication possible. And you can"t think of ---any--- reasons why? Come on! I thought you were more intelligent than that. Oh well I guess not.
Let"s start out with a couple of easy ones"
NOTHING is established in scripture so everybody can get it wrong as there have been 0 updates in at least 2, 000 years. There"s translations upon translations upon translations upon translations upon copies upon copies upon copies upon copies upon dead languages upon dead languages with absolutely 0% of a chance to trace it back to the original. And there"s no original in the first place! So absolutely nobody is interpreting correctly. Not you, Not the pope, No minister, No priest, No pastor, No-bo-dy. And within those translations and copies throughout the generations, Characters and what they have said, Especially with its leading characters, Namely god and christ, Their quotes/ verses have changed over time. Oh really? Who has the right and or know how to change ANY of god"s language to update it to whatever they felt like and or to amputate it into ---their--- language? Did they consult god and or jesus to see if this was OK? Of course not. And more importantly did they get it right as an updated version to what these characters would say in this day and age, Or even back then when the translations were updated? So once again god if as stated was reasonably intelligent, In which he"s clearly not, Would ---never--- use text as a form of communication, The worst form of communication possible because he would have certainly have foreseen all of these major faults. Oh and btw, Nobody can even prove that this god of the bible exists!

More?
* In the Bishop"s bible, The one before the KJV, The word "Tyrant" was used I don"t know how many times (its at least 400 from what completed records show) and then in the KJV that was replaced by "King". WHAT? Tyrant and KIng are two different and totally apples and oranges with each having totally different meanings.
* In Isaiah 45:7 KJV "I form the light, And create darkness: I make peace, And create evil: I the Lord do all these things. " In the NIV version its "I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, The Lord, Do all these things. " In the NLT its "I create the light and make the darkness. I send good times and bad times. I, The Lord, Am the one who does these things. In the ESV "I form light and create darkness; I make well-being and create calamity;I am the Lord, Who does all these things. " The words "evil" and "disaster" and "bad" and "calamity" are completely 4 completely different words that have 0% of nothing to do with each other and completely change the meaning of the verses. With each different verse, The messages are completely different. The synonyms of each word don"t even match. .
Mistranslations, Misinterpretations mixed messages exist throughout your bible simply because of translation errors. Now who"s to say which one is the correct one and the one that should be read and understood? You 100% know that its impossible to rank which is ---any-- bible to be the correct one because no bible is in effect correct by mere translation errors alone. That"s just in the English versions alone and we haven"t even gotten to other English versions, Much less to other language translations. Now do you really think a knowing god would have not foreseen these idiocies an never used text because of these fatal errors?
There are many other reasons why your god would never use text as a form of communication, The worst form of communication possible. So since this is true, If you mention ---any--- more bible verses, They will be stricken from this debate or countered.

OK back to the debate with the beginning of your debate for RD 3.
"He fulfills those characteristics) by holiness and perfection. " Well that"s 100% false. Hey your looking at it right now. Point blank. The human race is imperfect in your god"s creation. Man has got his heart attacks, His last failed breaths, Cancer, Influenza, Broken legs, His hatred, Wars, Bloodshed, Etc etc etc.

""Faith" is simply a virtue, A fundamental one by which we acquire knowledge of God. " I see, So what happens if someone exists in the Brazilian rainforest and has 20 children with 20 different women and doesn"t even have the foggiest idea as to who or what this god of your bible is? Thankfully. These people and others like them live in peace and do not create wars or hate whereas your unproven god thrives on it.
so can God be "proved" only by the virtue of "faith. "" OK then since you think this is true, Then you gather your creationist friends and you put your god on trial again to prove your god"s existence. What do you think will happen? That"s right. Not one of those creationists will sign up. Why? Because they know that faith is not provable. And they know that faith is all that they have to go on for proof of your god. So they know that its a fullhardy effort and they will lose. And since they will not put their god on trial again, It means that they cannot stand behind their product, Namely their god, Not a single one of them. So since they are also irresponsible this means that they cannot be acceptable.
"but it is impossible for any man to "force" God to reveal himself. " Well that doesn"t make any sense because who would want to in the first place? "It is impossible to "prove" God under a microscope or with weights and measures unless He subjects Himself to it. " Oh I see, So you think you know your unproven god better than he knows himself. I get it. "Faith" is not the same as "belief, "" Well actually it is. Faith: 2. Belief that is not based on proof: (well duh and double duh) 3. Belief in anything, As a code of ethics, Standards of merit, 4. A system of religious belief:

OK we cannot except C. S. Lewis. He was a creationist. So he"s gone.

But "we" don"t have "every universal truth or fact which we happen to have in common" (e. G. , Birds, Flowers, Light, Events, This debate). " etc. That"s the problem.

"Holy Spirit teach us that in addition to obedience and justice, Some amount of flexibility is required to be a complete person" I"m and so are billions of others a complete person without YOUR travesty of a god thank you very much. "The role of judging our eternal souls belongs to God. " Did it ever dawn on you that you are better than that especially when you cannot prove that your god does not even exist?

"Everything has a PURPOSE, Even if it's not understood, And a CAUSE, " YES THEY DO! And that"s where you get completely mixed up. Plants, Trees every---single---living---thing. It all has a purpose. That is a 100% proven. Its called "Mother Earth" or "Gaia Mother Earth" in which nearly all native American Indian tribes before your white man christian brethren nearly wiped them out, The aborigines, Buddhists, Hindu"s, The Inca etc etc etc they all knew and know to be true. And you can watch this on One Strange Rock from last year"s masterpiece series form National Geographic as its finally been vindicated AND you can watch another masterpiece series from last year from PBS which also vindicates it called Native America. But the thing that really p**ses me off about your religion is genesis 1:26 where your unproven god gives man the right to plunder everything on this planet if you actually read that verse for what it is.

"We ARE immoral; that's what Christianity professes. " Yeah and your bible promotes it like a bat out of hell and ingrains you with it like a slobbering toxic waste cloud. What a truly bad idiotic idea. Why not teach that you are a good person in which your bible in no possible way does? And the worst thing about it, Your god truly hates children. The second worst thing is your bible is about your god"s superior ego god complex and nothing else.
Oh yeah YOU are brainwashed on YOUR god. Don"t try to separate yourself from others who are brainwashed like you.

OK *yawn* whatever, Math is a universal language. If an alien was to have the ability to communicate with man, It would be through math, Not though your unproven god for god"s sake. Enough on that.

"Unfortunately for any evidence in favor of Atheism, " Whoah. Stop right there. There"s no evidence for your god. Not even your christ. Yeah I do take great offense to that because you haven"t the foggiest idea what atheism is.

"My answer to all of your questions (from the O. T. ) is "Yes, " people do deserve to die for all those offenses. " OK we"re done. Bye.
cfossedal

Con

I can refer to anything and anyone I want for reason and/or evidence. You have (mis)quoted the Bible to make arguments against the morality of God according to your personal values system. You don't have unilateral authority to evidence only to ignore my own with a quip of "yawn" or "duh. " This is akin to me taking everything YOU have written so far and saying, "well, That just proves your point, So it's biased. " Also, Stephen Hawking was NOT a creationist.

I'm not going to address your own quibbles about linguistics until you can learn to read, Write, And express a coherent thought. In English. And Latin. And Greek. And Japanese. And interpret law. Everything I have to say about faith and scriptural interpretation you may refer to above.

Math is not a "universal" language, And "universal" is not exclusive to extraterrestrials. Calling it a universal language just means it's a least common interpretation of existence. I can say "2 + 2 = 4" to you 'til I'm blue in the face, But it doesn't mean anything unless you understand it or it has some implication on reality extending to things everything including that which is beyond our comprehension. That is what I mean by "Math is not a universal language. "

Atheism is literally "no belief. " I have "the foggiest idea" because I've studied Atheism and Christianity, Been a Christian, And been an Atheist. If you were an Atheist, You wouldn't even care whether or not I had offended you because it wouldn't exist in your system of values which contain no values for you to believe in. Of course, You took the low road YET AGAIN by ignoring my justification. If you were an atheist, You wouldn't believe in "Gaia Mother Earth" either, And if you value it higher than the Christian God, More power to you: Except that you DO believe in God as a conceptualization that you accused certain Christian groups of earlier.

You worship a god that flows from your own mind, Whom YOU created, Because it fits your nihilistic world view. I only worship a God who created ME, Whom I aspire to love and serve. Only in the end, Whether one of us is right or wrong, I can't possibly lose.
Debate Round No. 4
8 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 8 records.
Posted by Chronosofwisdom 3 years ago
Chronosofwisdom
@cfossedal you did the best job you were going to be able to with backwardseden as an opponent. Good job.
Posted by 21stCenturyIconoclast 3 years ago
21stCenturyIconoclast
CFOSSEDAL QUOTE: "But I'll give you one more chance to behave yourself. "

The quote above is the latest insidious talking point option for the inept pseudo-christian to be able to RUN AWAY from discussion of their primitive faith because of easily being made the fool by the Atheist. When they can"t address the Atheist"s propositions, And remain intelligent looking in the aftermath, They use the lame excuse of "You"re not behaving the way I want you too, So I don"t have time for you anymore. "

I have run across this child-like attitude many times in this forum, Where I addressed it and made the pseudo-christian even a greater fool then they were.

If one has a "plethora" of knowledge about the primitive faith of Christianity, And subjectively, It is hard for the Atheist to be nice to the pseudo-christian when they spew forth their insipid apologetics and hermeneutics, And knowingly realize that these fools actually admit to worshipping a brutal serial killer god of the innocents named Yahweh!
Posted by 21stCenturyIconoclast 3 years ago
21stCenturyIconoclast
The Pseudo-Christian Comedy of CFOSSEDAL!

CFOSSEDAL QUOTE: "There is clear evidence that prayer does not always work the way we want it to, And the Bible acknowledges this. Secondly, There is evidence to suggest that prayer can work, Especially in charismatic areas like healing and conversion.

Concerning the Christian mind masturbation of prayer, It is to work at all times, Period! As it is blatantly shown once again, Cfossedal is totally ignorant of his primitive JUDEO-Christian bible and slaps his mythical Jesus right in the face!

JESUS STATED; "And all things, Whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, Believing, Ye shall receive. " (Matthew 21:22) Key word: "BELIEVING, " which triggers the prayer in a direct absolute manner, As none other than Jesus so states!

If a pseudo-christian does not get their prayer answered, Then the onus is put upon them because they didn"t "believe" enough. " How embarrassing it must be for the pseudo-christian to know that they didn't get their prayer answered because they didn't believe enough in Jesus, Which adds even more guilt upon them and the prayer recipient.

In part, The irony is that the pseudo-christian does not need healthcare of any kind. This is because if they truly believe in the Jesus character, They will have all of their prayers of health concerns covered by prayer. This deduces to the irreducible primary, That if a pseudo-christian has healthcare, Then they admit that they really don"t believe in Jesus 100 percent, Whoops!

Christians worshipping a blatant and horrific serial killer god named Yahweh, Continues into the 21st century at their embarrassing expense.
Posted by killshot 3 years ago
killshot
@backwards - "This is 845+ animals per hour"

hahaha flame thrower for the win!
Posted by backwardseden 3 years ago
backwardseden
@Alcar - Way back in 92 I was taught by my greatest teacher ever, In college, A mathematical equation being fact are the only facts that there are. Stephen Hawking and his colleague also did prove that something does come from nothing with a mathematical equation thus proving that god was not needed to have created the known universe. I cannot argue with that. Now I most certainly don't take math as my god because I don't have a god. I also don't interfere with mathematical equations as you have done to come up with different summations.
Now as far as god is concerned Con is wrong until proven correct. All he has to prove his god is his bible and nothing else. No, There's both false AND incoherent. False = erroneous, Fraudulent, Dishonest, Etc etc. Hmmm a talking snake, Rabbits chews its cud, 2 Chronicles 7:5 & 8-9 Solomon sacrificed 22, 000 oxen and 120, 000 sheep in one week. This is 845+ animals per hour, 14+ animals per minute, For seven days straight. The cure for leprosy involves incantations and the blood of a bird. Etc etc etc Incoherant= irrational, Imperfect, Unintelligible, Etc etc. Makes one helluva lot of mistakes such as contradictions and inconsistencies thus making it unreadable, There are also mistakes in messages from translations to translations etc etc. Now I'm since you are an atheist that you are aware of all this homogenized crap in the babbling bumbling big black hole bible + a whole ton more - correct that no "god" would be a party to?
Posted by killshot 3 years ago
killshot
I could be reading this incorrectly, But I think the 2+2=4 thing was in reference to logical absolutes not set theory.
Posted by Alcar 3 years ago
Alcar
backwardseden said:
"WRONG! A mathematical equation can and is proven. 2 + 2 = 4 no matter which language you speak. Your god can be disproved no matter which language you speak. Mathematical equations are the only facts that there are. "

Nope, "2+2=4" is not a fact. You assumed, For example, That integers have a successor and the "successor function" is an injection, Which might not be true. In other words, Don't take math as your god. Math brings cleverness, Not wisdom.

I'm definitely with Con (but not because of "cfossedal" arguments). If you assume by saying false, You actually mean incoherent, It is just that christianity is a group of beliefs and I can construct a way of being christian that can be coherent (the belief that the orders given by god to his follower is context-dependent is a must). I'm an atheist btw.
Posted by Easan 3 years ago
Easan
please try not to insult each other too much although I have to side with pro on this one

For example, If u don't sin you'll go to heaven. So basically babies that die as babies are the luckiest cos they don't have the opportunity to sin and since YOLO bam they're in heaven

So christian's response to every single problem in the world is that it's god's plan. Tell that to a victim of a terror attack who can barely walk and his whole family lies dead. If he heard it was god's damn plan to screw him over he'll probably take a picture of your 'god' and s*** on it
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