The Instigator
Kongerskov
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
SUP3RFRUIT
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

Eternal punishment by the god of the Bible is immoral.

Do you like this debate?NoYes+1
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 0 votes the winner is...
It's a Tie!
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 7/16/2018 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,145 times Debate No: 116609
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (13)
Votes (0)

 

Kongerskov

Pro

1) Eternal harm is immoral.
2) Eternal punishment by the god of the bible is eternal harm.
3) Therefore, eternal punishment by the god of the bible is immoral.
SUP3RFRUIT

Con

1) What is your source for this belief? If it is the Bible, I am pretty sure that it never said that.
2) Eternal punishment by God is a punishment and an eternal separation from God and Heaven, not merely eternal harm.
3) If God is going to do something immoral, then He cannot be God. Psalm 18:30a says, "As for God, His way is perfect; the word of the LORD is flawless." God is perfect, therefore casting people into Hell is not immoral.

As for the person in the comments, (I forget exactly what you said but it was something along the lines of how a righteous/loving God would not condemn people to hell for not believing in Him) in Revelations, we are told that there will be a Rapture, where all believers, dead and alive, will be taken to Heaven. Those who remain will continue to live out their days here. However, people are given endless chances to accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior. If you tell yourself, "God can't be real. There's no evidence!" or ,"This world is all there is" or anything related to that, you are not only not believing in God, you are blatantly rejecting Him.

Thank you, and please fell free to point out any discrepancies in my argument and I will try my best to address them.
Debate Round No. 1
Kongerskov

Pro

(For the record I am a theist, a Vedic Presupper)

Let's just start with your first point.

"1) What is your source for this belief? If it is the Bible, I am pretty sure that it never said that."

My source of knowledge for the eternal punishment of the god of the Bible.

Matthew 25:31-46

"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on his right, "Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world." . . . Then he will say to those on his left, "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. . . . And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

The god of the bible punishes souls for eternity, causing them eternal harm, when the god of the bible could have punished sinners temporarily and achieved a positive result by his almighty power, but the god of the bible chooses the worst of all solutions which produce a negative result, an immoral result, and therefore the god of the Bible is immoral.

And as the god of the Bible is immoral, he is not god at all, the true god is not immoral punishing souls with eternal harm, but is the ultimate foundation of morality, that is Krsna, The Supreme Personality of Godhead, The Cause of All Causes, The Supreme Absolute Truth from Whom everything has come into existence.
SUP3RFRUIT

Con

Here's the thing, man: Humans are given endless chances to accept God, but they just don't. You can't tell me you've never met a Christian, never heard a Christian song mentioning the birth of Christ, never seen a church, never seen a Bible, and never rejected Christianity.

To take the verse you presented, the sheep are His flock, those who believe in Him and entrusted Him as their Lord and Savior. And those who remain are those who blatantly rejected Him. The Kingdom has been prepared for all those who believe.

Here's another thing: God does punish sinners. Temporarily. And still now. There are negative consequences for negative actions, and that is God's way of punishing you. If you (for example's sake only) were to kill someone, you would be thrown in jail if you were caught. If not, you would live with the guilt of that murder until you can't take it anymore and you confess what you did (or die before you can).

You can't say that God doesn't punish sinners temporarily, because that's what negative consequences are. And eternal punishment is not immoral; it is justice for rejection, and a consequence of unwillingness to turn from sin.

Also, Krsna? How can he be the "Cause of all Causes" if he himself was caused? According to Hindu mythology (From which that god was created, by the way) Krsna/Krishna was born to Devaki and Vasudeva. How, then, can Krsna be the creator if he was created? It doen't work that way.
Debate Round No. 2
Kongerskov

Pro

You cannot morally or logically defend that eternal harm is moral, it's not possible.
Eternal harm is always immoral, and therefore the eternal punishment by the god of the Bible is immoral.
SUP3RFRUIT

Con

Ok, here we go. Before I post my argument for the final round, I just want to say thank you to my opponent for being respectful and a good debater. And to the people in the comments for giving me some food for thought.

Ok, so what I am going to do, which is something I should have done from the beginning, is present some definitions. These are all taken from Merriam Webster.
Moral :
a : of or relating to principles of right and wrong in behavior : ethical moral judgments
b : expressing or teaching a conception of right behavior a moral poem
c : conforming to a standard of right behavior took a moral position on the issue though it cost him the nomination
d : sanctioned by or operative on one's conscience or ethical judgment a moral obligation
e : capable of right and wrong action a moral agent

Immoral: not moral; broadly : conflicting with generally or traditionally held moral principles

Punishment:
a : suffering, pain, or loss that serves as retribution
b : a penalty inflicted on an offender through judicial procedure

So the definition I am going to call attention to is "Punishment." It is suffering, pain, or loss that serves as retribution. In other words, a consequence or penalty. If you committed a crime, you would be thrown in jail, right? Well, if you sin, you will be punished by God, and that's that. Incarceration isn't immoral when there's a just cause, and neither is condemnation to hell.

An important thing the Bible teaches about Hell is that it is the way that God ensures people are treated how they deserve. God forgives sin. Yet God does not clear the guilty. In other words: God is just, rightly punishing wrongdoing. Take a look at Exodus 34:5-7: "The LORD descended in the cloud and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the LORD". "The LORD, the LORD, a God merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness, keeping steadfast love for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, but who will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children and the children"s children, to the third and the fourth generation.""

In Romans 3:21-26, the apostle Paul explains how it is that God is right to do this, and how it is we can see He is right as He does it: "But now the righteousness of God has been manifested" the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe."

The "righteousness of God" simply means the fact that God is right in what He does. God is right because, as Paul goes on to say, every single human being on the planet who has ever lived is wrong: "For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith."

The word "justified" means "being made right." And the word "propitiation" means "paying the punishment for wrongs done." Paul is saying is that all the wrongs people do are severe and serious because they"re wrong done to God"s glory. However, even though everyone is in the wrong, we can be made right because Jesus pays the punishment for our wrongs. Why is this? Paul goes on"

"This was to show God"s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance He had passed over former sins. It was to show His righteousness at the present time, so that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus."

Think about how serious that means our wrongdoing actually is. To pay the punishment for our sin and wrongdoing, God had to become a man Himself and take the punishment. Somehow, our wrongdoing is so serious: that to pay it off requires something as valuable as the death of God.

Think about it another way. God loves every individual in the world infinitely more than you or I possibly ever even could. Every time I wrong or hurt someone else, it is an infinite affront and hurt to God"s infinite love for that person.

Perhaps think about it the way Paul talks about it above. Sin is rebellion and falling short of God"s glory. God"s glory is infinitely good and infinitely holy.

Or finally, the thing about wrongdoing, sin, and rebellion against God, is that it"s addictive. And when people do wrong things, they tend to dig their heels in and act in a self-defensive way, wrapped up in more and more of a sense that they are right and God is wrong. The Bible hints that people in Hell will be just like this. As well as "weeping" in Hell, there will also be "gnashing of teeth""a sign of defiance. One reason Hell goes on forever is that the people within it simply never humble themselves, say sorry, and admit that God is right and they are wrong.

All the above are just some of the reasons why the Bible must talk about Hell, where God meets out justice against wrongdoers, using language like "eternal." To rebel against God and commit wrongdoing is an infinite wrong considered from several angles. That is why Hell is just.

It seems as though you are asking this: Why would God punish non-believers with an eternity in Hell for a finite amount of sin? It seems unfair. Shouldn"t their duration in Hell be commensurate with the amount and severity of their sin?

People who raise this complaint fail to understand the nature of two things: the nature of the offender and the nature of the offended.

The nature of the offender is obvious: Humans are guilty. Not only are they born with a sin nature, they"ve committed crimes against God throughout their lives. That means they deserve to be punished. Every human being on the planet finds himself in this predicament.

God, though, offers every guilty person a pardon. Those who accept God"s offer are absolved of their guilt and go free. Those who reject the pardon pay for the crimes themselves because they remain guilty. Like human prison, God sentences the guilty to a spiritual quarantine (the Bible calls this place Hell).

Their quarantine in Hell lasts forever because they remain guilty forever. While on earth, they had an opportunity to accept the pardon, but that time has passed. They turned down their chance to be absolved of their guilt. Now, they pay for their crimes by being sentenced to an eternal quarantine. After serving a year of their sentence, they"re still guilty. After serving 1,000 years of their sentence, they"re still guilty. Their guilt never fades.

Though the guilt of the offender is relevant, there"s another factor that justifies eternal banishment: The nature of the person offended.

God is the person offended in a human act of sin and/or a lifetime of rebellion. We fail to grasp God"s immense goodness, holiness, and value. He is the greatest being in the universe (and outside the universe). Our inability to understand God"s greatness impedes our ability to understand the reasoning behind the eternality of Hell. Put simply, offending an eternal being earns you an eternal punishment.

Within our human justice system, we often consider the nature of the victim or the person offended. If you kill a rat, for example, you"re not likely to get prosecuted. Indeed, it"s legal to pay people to kill them. That"s because rats aren"t valuable by nature. Kill your neighbor"s Chihuahua, though, and you can be fined because household pets are valued by their owners. If you shoot a bald eagle, you"ll face fines and imprisonment since they"re federally protected. Murder a human being and you might face the death penalty or a lifetime quarantine in prison. That"s a serious punishment because of the nature of humans " they are extremely valuable.

Long story short, I'm out of characters. So to summarize, condemning people to hell is a just consequence for continual defiance and refusal of God's mercy and grace. Thank you for reading.

https://www.str.org...

https://www.biblword.net...?
Debate Round No. 3
13 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by KnightTemplar 3 years ago
KnightTemplar
@backwardseden
No not at all. To me, The god of the old testament isnt the being or person as the God of the NT. THey are two different persons. No change at all. Look at the teachings of Marcion. These will explain much more to you than I can.
Posted by ArguingPerson123 3 years ago
ArguingPerson123
After all this time, I think FollowerofChrist1955 here is a troll. He hangs onto one piece what he calls "unbeatable evidence," and then says it trumps all other pieces of evidence. He has random all-caps, and uses "your" incorrectly. He must be a troll pretending to sound like an over-the-top religious nut. I sincerely hope that's the case, anyway.
Posted by FollowerofChrist1955 3 years ago
FollowerofChrist1955
Your SIN! It is YOU that must change, or ELSE.
Eat to much, overweight is the consequence, heart disease, death. Why SHOULD God, remove the consequence of YOUR CHOICE?

He doesn"t! Because it was ALWAYS your problem.
Posted by backwardseden 3 years ago
backwardseden
1 Isaiah 15:29 "And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent."

GE 6:6. EX 32:14, NU 14:20, 1SA 15:35, 2SA 24:16 God does change his mind.
NU 23:19-20, 1SA 15:29, JA 1:17 God does not change his mind.
(Obviously far too many verses to post here with la limited number of characters. But please do feel free to look each and every one of them up! Especially the god does not change his mind. Some are so ridiculous great that laughing at the complete silliness of the bible becomes a new term.)

So this god of YOURS does in fact change and that's according to YOUR bible. But let's dig much deeper than how YOUR god is much worse in the NT than in the OT...
Int the NT he created this "hell" in which sends people to burn forever and ever and ever until the end of time. This god also didn't give one god damn about slavery and allowed it to continue throughout the bible. This so-called god also beat on this so-called savior to be tortured and crucified to suffer, and for what? What can children especially learn from suffering. when daddy is punching them in the face and sticking his you know what inside of them sometimes for decades twice a week except for absolutel nothing, that its pain and suffering. That's jesus's love who supposedly died for all of "us" right? Talk about being completely and 100% immoral. Since YOUR god could not think of a better way, wow, what a true piece of manure spread he is. Then there's revelation which is about what exactly? Oh me going to hell for not believing in this supposed christ? Well goodie for me, all the more reason for me to not believe. Then there's this maggot who raped beat and tortured six 5 year old girls and has found christ and now has a place in your heaven. Yeah your christ is the most fought after figure in the history of man. "More people have died in the name of YOUR god than for any other reason." George Carlin and he's right. So why should ANYONE believe?
Posted by backwardseden 3 years ago
backwardseden
@KnightTemplar - So according to you the god of the OT suddenly changed from being a bastard and criminally insane to be kind and loving in the NT? Well gee. Strange. Because...
*Proverbs 30:5 "Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him."
*Isaiah 40:8 "The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever."
*2 Timothy 3:16 "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"
*Psalm 19:7 "The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple."
*Psalm 119:160 "Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever."
*Malachi 3:6 "For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed."

In other words god"s word is PERFECT. It cannot be changed by anyone or anything which includes that drab jesus in which there's no proof of existence which is also true of your god. Yet somehow this god of YOURS did change from being a total immoral bastard into POOF this supposed kind and loving huggagable pillow soft caring bird droppings. So according to you this god of YOURS completely changed, in which this bible of yours flatly stated that this god of YOURS is unchanging.

Genesis 1:31 God was pleased with his creation.
"And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day."
Genesis 6:5-6 God was not pleased with his creation.
"And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. (Note: That God should be displeased is inconsistent with the concept of omniscience as well as with the fact that God allegedly does not change his mind:
Posted by Just-Call-Me-PK 3 years ago
Just-Call-Me-PK
God doesn"t change, we do.
Posted by KnightTemplar 3 years ago
KnightTemplar
What if the God of the Old Testament is an immoral and wicked god, while the Father of the New Testament is the kind and perfect God? Really sounds like when i look at scripture, I see two different gods. An evil and ignorant god of the Old Testament, and a perfect all-knowing God of the New. Just my opinion
Posted by backwardseden 3 years ago
backwardseden
http://www.youtube.com... - Atheist Debates - But That's the Old Testament
Posted by backwardseden 3 years ago
backwardseden
* Do you think you should die if you commit adultery? Y____? N____? Your god thinks so. Leviticus 20:10 "And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death."
* Do you think you should die if you are a homosexual? Y___? N____? Your god thinks so. Leviticus 20:13 "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."
* Do you think you should die if you worship other gods? Y____? N____? Your god thinks so. Deuteronomy 13: 9-10 "9 But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. 10 And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the Lord thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage." AND 17: 2-5 "2 If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the Lord thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the Lord thy God, in transgressing his covenant, 3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; 4 And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel: 5 Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die."
If you've answered YES to any of the questions posed, then the answer is quite simple... you are as completely as immoral as your god. DO NOT try to pass off that "the law" christian hogwash in saying that christians abolish the OT laws. It doesn't work.
Posted by backwardseden 3 years ago
backwardseden
god is moral? Please try harder and guess again.
* Do you think you should die if you work on the sabbath? Y____? N____? Your god thinks so. Exodus 31:14 "Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.", Numbers 15: 32-36 " And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. 33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation. 34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him. 35 And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses." Notice jesus worked on the sabbath, he was not put to death. Strange? That supposed "law" that christians use is in ill effect and does not work.
* Do you think you should die for merely cursing at your parents? Y____? N____? Your god thinks so. Exodus 21:17 "And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death., Leviticus 20:9 "For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.", Mark 7:10 "For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:, Matthew 15:4 "For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death."
No votes have been placed for this debate.

By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use.