The Instigator
Starfuze
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
TheDebater4
Con (against)
Winning
7 Points

Even though communism is considered as evil, Is the thought behind it logical and moral?

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Post Voting Period
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after 1 vote the winner is...
TheDebater4
Voting Style: Open Point System: Select Winner
Started: 1/4/2019 Category: Politics
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 633 times Debate No: 119753
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (10)
Votes (1)

 

Starfuze

Pro

It is commonly believed throughout most of the world that Communism was a terrible way to govern a large group of people.

For example, In most Communist governments most of the population represented was extremely poor and lived off of as little as humanly possible, People were treated terribly, And the problem of poverty Communism attempted to solve only made it worse.

Even though it has been portrayed as evil, I believe that the thought of a classless society was ethical and just.

I'm not saying that I am for Communism, I am just stating that the thought behind Communism was ethical.

Here's why.

The main goal of Communism was to create a classless society where all people had similar amounts of personal belongings, Such as money, And actual personal belongings.
This situation was thought to create a decent living condition for everyone, And not just the economically better-off.

If you accept this debate, You may go ahead and write your argument for this round.
TheDebater4

Con

Thank you for presenting this opportunity, And it is my pleasure to be debating with you today.

The idea of Communism may seem ethical, But it ignores one fundamental thing: the amount of work one puts in.

In capitalism, If I put in a significant amount of work, I will receive significant dividends. If I do not put in any work, The amount of reward I get will be none. It is completely my fault that I did not do optimal work, And that if I had, I would be better off. The rewards an individual receives are in proportion to their effort.

However in communism, The idea is collectivised. The work done is taken as a total, And then divided equally among all. An extremely hard working person and one that does no work gets the same rewards!

So you're telling me that if I work hard for years, My reward is the exact same as another who was relaxing for his whole life?

To me, This is something completely unacceptable. We shouldn't live life leeching of the work of others, One's rewards should be based on how much one does, And not influenced by the rest of the population.
Debate Round No. 1
Starfuze

Pro

I do have to admit that your reason is quite good, So I researched a bit for this round and looked in the comments.

K_Michael_Tolman commented, "People who didn't work in a communist society would not keep their jobs. The government and parties still want results, And would promote those who work well and support the government. If you think you can get paid for doing nothing, You'll be sorely disappointed. You WILL still be supported for food and other necessities by the government, But you would not have a wage. "

Thank you for the comment.

In Communism, There are two major things that determine what your wage is. Your abilities/work and your needs.

I'll cover the abilities part first.

In Communism, The government selects your job. What job you would be best at, And what your best interests are. This system of job selection is effective in getting everyone the preferred job they want, While still taking into account how much skill or experience the worker has, Compared to capitalism, Where you need certain criteria to earn a job.

The reason for trying to get everyone a job they're good at is to make more for the nation itself.

Whereas in Capitalism, You may get a job you don't like or aren't paid fairly enough.

Now I'll cover the needs part.

The other way wage is decided is if you have more needs. For example, An average family man will earn more than an average single man, Because the family man will need to support and tend to his family, Versus the single man who only needs to tend to himself.

Whereas again in Capitalism, The job you might get may or may not support you and/or your family.

The floor is yours.
TheDebater4

Con

Indeed, I read the comment and I will admit that is true. If I work well, I would be promoted.
Yet my thoughts will slowly start to manifest around this central idea: "He does no work and yet has all his basic needs fulfilled, I work hard day and night and all I have is some more money. Maybe that existence isn't so bad". Following this, My productivity will decrease, And I will stagnate to the lowest possible level.

Granted, I have money, But what is the need for it? In a true Communist society, The existence of a currency is obsolete. In True Communism, Everything is shared and borrowed, Nothing is private. So what use does a currency have?

If I have no use of money, Nothing will make me work extra, As it gives me extra wages which are useless.

Coming to your part about abilities. It may occur that what I want to do is what I may not be very good at. Also, In capitalistic society, There are some criterion to get work. These criteria, When fulfilled, Show that someone has a certain amount of expertise and required skills. So hiring this person, As in contrast to somebody who merely "wants" the job, Will bring more dividends to the economy.

Returning to the question of the morality of Communism. In a communist society, One does not have access to private property or access to any intellectual property. Under the concept of "natural law", Private property and ownership of intellectual property are inviolable rights of humans.
Debate Round No. 2
Starfuze

Pro

Starfuze forfeited this round.
TheDebater4

Con

Communism is not something that is moral in principle, As continued below:

Communist governments must necessarily use coercion to achieve the social harmony they promise, Depriving the individual of the right to choose their own destiny -- especially if those choices lead to better outcomes for them than for others.

This blatant disregard of one's rights is something that is not characteristic of moral systems.
Debate Round No. 3
Starfuze

Pro

Starfuze forfeited this round.
TheDebater4

Con

To summarise, Communism is decidedly unethical and immoral, Unlike popular belief. It kills all individuality, And the fruits of labour are equally distributed.

One so lacks all and any access to private property and intellectual property, Which are inviolable rights under natural law.

Their exists a blatant disregards of one's rights and individuality in Communism, And so cannot be considered Communism.
Debate Round No. 4
10 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by omar2345 3 years ago
omar2345
@Starfuze

What do you have a thought about?
Something that you both agree upon as the definition or are you speaking past each other?
Posted by Starfuze 3 years ago
Starfuze
He's saying that the thought behind communism is illogical and not moral, And I am saying that it is logical and moral.
Posted by omar2345 3 years ago
omar2345
I meant in the debate.
Not knowing what both of you are talking about might lead both of you talking about two different definitions of communism.
Posted by Starfuze 3 years ago
Starfuze
@omar2345

It's a political theory derived from Karl Marx, Advocating class war and leading to a society in which all property is publicly owned and each person works and is paid according to their abilities and needs.
Posted by omar2345 3 years ago
omar2345
@Starfuze

Define communism so that there isn't confusion on what you mean by communism.
Posted by LOL98700z 3 years ago
LOL98700z
Communism, In it's core, Is not evil. While Pro is listing out in real life how communism is bad for a country. These systems are not communism. As long as a government and unequal distribution of goods continue to be present, These are never communism, Instead, Classified as Stalinism dictatorship or Socialism.

@NoBodyssues
I must argue against your point of view. While Stalinism and also dictatorship level socialism like during the Big Leap era of PRC, Does certainly exist, It is not point to stop us from trying to create a society that is a true communism society.

(Also, If you want to see why current communism would not work, Refer to another debate I had been working on: https://www. Debate. Org/debates/Socialism/35/)
Posted by Leaning 3 years ago
Leaning
I have No interest I mean. Sigh, I really should proof read before I post.
Posted by Leaning 3 years ago
Leaning
I don't consider communism 'evil. Though I have interest in it taking the place of my own countries current method of government. If some people all got together and agreed to live in a communistic society that's fine, Best really. By best really, I just mean it's best when everyone is agreed and happy with their government. Communism has 'I 'think, Generally arisen in countries during times of turmoil and strife, Revolution. Usually when the economy and land is rather f***ed up. You tend to have a 'lot of people disagreeing on government, And thus all the blood and the killings and the forced government.

Even in the USA there are people who only live by the countries laws begrudgingly. Despising taxes, The social contract, Government regulations, And so on.

Or if you look at early USA during the Revolutionary War. Not 'everyone wanted to split from England. There existed Tories, And people only agreeing because most other people were. People who didn't care, And people who became upset when the war intruded on their lives.

Still, USA was in a good position to recover, I think mostly all the people on the same page, And so on. China, USSR, Cuba, Vietnam. Even after their wars for independence were won, Struggled to rebuild. That last part is a bit too much speculation on my part maybe though.
Posted by K_Michael_Tolman 3 years ago
K_Michael_Tolman
People who didn't work in a communist society would not keep their jobs. The government and parties still want results, And would promote those who work well and support the government. If you think you can get paid for doing nothing, You'll be sorely disappointed. You WILL still be supported for food and other necessities by the government, But you would not have a wage.
Posted by Nobodysseus 3 years ago
Nobodysseus
It has always been my belief that communism would only work in a utopian society (a. K. A perfect world or fantasy land) with no greed or power-mongering whatsoever. In today's world, However, It is corrupted by power being concentrated in the hands of very few, Usually culminating in a dictatorship. The revocation of resources is t hen used to instill total cooperation from all remaining members of society through a rule of fear. This totally goes against the grain of the original core values of communism: equality, Equity, Harmony, And order.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by zhaod1 3 years ago
zhaod1
StarfuzeTheDebater4
Who won the debate:-Vote Checkmark
Reasons for voting decision: Pro forfeited 2 rounds.

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