The Instigator
backwardseden
Pro (for)
The Contender
NKTheChef
Con (against)

Evolution is proven fact. Prove the biblical god exists. That BOP is always upon believers

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/18/2018 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Debating Period
Viewed: 2,182 times Debate No: 106881
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (68)
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backwardseden

Pro

Evolution is proven fact
Antibiotic resistant microbes is 100% confirmation and certification and proven fact that evolution is taking place right here in the here and the now. Antibiotic resistant microbes are evolving every single second of every single day to become more resistant to antibiotics.

http://www.youtube.com...;- Frontline - The Trouble with Antibiotics Documentary
http://www.youtube.com... - Hunting the Nightmare Bactiria
http://www.youtube.com...;- Rise Of Superbugs Resistant To Antibiotics | Full Documentary
http://www.youtube.com...;- Antibiotics Resistance

The so what nothingness god of the bible (thankfully) is not proven fact

No matter which language you speak. god is NOT proven fact.

1. My opponent cannot win the evolution argument in which was just listed and proved. So only religion is left to argue in this debate.

2. Rules: The BOP to prove god is always up to theists. No exceptions. None.







dsjpk5 will not be allowed to vote in the voting process.
NKTheChef

Con

1. I believe in God and in Intelligent Design/Creation. The argument of God begins with creation, and there is such a thing as a believer in God and Evolution.

2. Your first point was that bacteria has "evolved" to become resistant to antibiotics. This, however, is not true. Each bacteria has a certain set of genes. They can connect to other bacteria via transduction. If one bacteria has the information to resist a certain antibiotic, then passes it to others, then they will also become resistant. THIS is how bacteria has "evolved." Not through evolution, but through transduction and conjugation.

3. Another thing scientists use to affirm evolution is the geological column. The geological column shows that the further you go into the earth, the more primitive the creatures become. But the geological column is highly selective. 95% percent of all fossils are clams and other similar organisms. Yet another problem with the geological column is that we have yet to find a full section of the entire column with all the strata. The final problem with it that I will state is that it was originally said that the geological column would form with all the strata over thousands of years. But with volcanoes, multiple strata can form instantly.

4. Intermediate forms. Evolution states that there must be some sort of intermediate form. Recently, it has been said that they change too fast for them to fossilize. But we have fossilized cowboy boots. Things can fossilize incredibly quick under correct conditions.

5. Cytochrome C. Cytosome C is a protein that is used in metabolism. According to evolution, the simpler the life form, the more closely related the CC sequence. Yeast's sequence for CC is far more different from a bacteria than a Horse, which is a "complex" organism. This is just one CC example that demolishes Evolution.

6. Finally, Evolutionists claim that evolution happens through mutation. But no positive mutation has ever occurred in a lab. Mutation never adds information to DNA, it only destroys it. And say that it did, but the new organism would be reproductively isolated and die out. To get two different organisms of the same species, a male, and a female, to mutate in the same way at the same time, is insane.

7. Belief in God, at its core, is belief. There is evidence to support it, but those are better found through personal study with another in person. If you want to find one from a nearby church, go to http://www.dtodayinfo.net... to find a church and a person to go over the evidence.

Sources:
Wile, Jay L., and Marilyn F. Durnell. Exploring creation with biology. 2nd ed., Apologia Educational Ministries, 2005.

McKeeman, Lori. Biology, https://www.pottersschool.org.... Sept. 2017-May 2018. Science Dept, The Potter's School. 13 Sept 2018
Debate Round No. 1
backwardseden

Pro

"Rules: The BOP to prove god is always up to theists. No exceptions. None."
So scratch #1 from you because you state its a "belief".
2. You didn"t watch the videos at all which is blatantly obvious and truly detrimental to your argument, because all have stated in which all of them state that evolution is taking place. Watch the videos because they have more power and ideals that you do.
3. Has nothing to do with anything. I only mentioned one form of evolution. That"s it. You stroll off into oblivion into the "who really cares" area.
4. No it doesn"t. Try harder.
5. Has nothing to do with anything.
6. "Finally, Evolutionists claim that evolution happens through mutation. But no positive mutation has ever occurred in a lab." Well it most certainly has. Watch the videos.
7. "Belief in God, at its core, is belief." Yes---it---is. So why even bring it up if its a "belief"? So you have no proof. No one, not one person ---ever-- has been able to prove your god.
The link you presented is not proof of any kind. Wow. So what if churches were built? What in the happy hairy hard off does that prove?
Oh and btw the slaughter you, and you flatly deserve it because of your bombastic schmuckdumb Stephen Hawking and his colleague came up with a mathematical equation that proves that something is gotten from nothing so YOUR god was not needed to have created the known universe. Now mathematical equations are the only facts that there are. 2 + 2 = 4 no matter which language you speak. YOUR god can be disproved, and rather easily, no matter which language you speak.

"Creationists do not try to prove the truth of creationism. They spend their time arguing against evolution." Matt Dillahunty
"There is evidence to support it," to support a "belief" ah yes I get it indeed. "
If you want to find one from a nearby church, go to http://www.dtodayinfo.net...... to find a church and a person to go over the evidence." Are you serious? No really, are you REALLY serious? I have been to many churches. Oh and btw, you from YOUR church cannot even get a consensus on YOUR god. So what are you squawking about? So let"s delete that link, K?
"If you try to get clarification, if you try to get what the christian orthodox view is on the law, you're not going to find consensus. You"re not going to find christians "oh here"s what christians think about" they"re all going to have this concept of this different thing now. But as far as it applies and why and what to do with it, they"re all different. Its going to be a hard argument because most have different ideas about it and most are going to change their ideas and start tweeking them as soon as they have to start answering questions because they haven"t looked into it before most of them." Tracie Harris

"If I were you I would treat this as an exercise in understanding the whole of the fabric of societies. So maybe go ahead and talk to your pastor and don"t go in with an agenda. Go in and just interact and interview him and find out interesting things. And find out points where you agree and disagree. And then do the same thing with somebody else. Go to your local synagogue and ask them about judaism. Look up as many denominations as you can and have a chat with people. And I think what you"ll find over time is that everybody is convinced that they know the absolute truth. And everybody has wildly different opinions about what that is." Russell Glasser

"Religious leaders are not trained in any sort of objective information. They are very well trained in is backtalk. So they might be good at making superficially convincing cases." Russell Glasser

And the second link you presented, wow my god are you kidding me? Nothing from your god/ bible should EVER be taught to children considering that YOUR god truly hates children to begin with.
http://www.youtube.com... - Atheist debates get em while they"re young

Here's a few verses from YOUR bible, and quite sick and disgusting they are, shows quite clearly how YOUR god truly hates children...
2 Samuel 12:11-14 11 Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun. 12 For thou didst it secretly: but I will do this thing before all Israel, and before the sun. 13 And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die.14 Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die. From evilbible.com [The child dies seven days later.] This has got to be one of the sickest quotes of the Bible. God himself brings the completely innocent rape victims to the rapist. What kind of pathetic loser would do something so evil? And then he kills a child! This is sick, really sick!

Deuteronomy 2:34 "And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain:"

Numbers 31:17-18 "17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. 18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves."

Leviticus 26:21-22 "And if ye walk contrary unto me, and will not hearken unto me; I will bring seven times more plagues upon you according to your sins. 22 I will also send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your children, and destroy your cattle, and make you few in number; and your high ways shall be desolate." Rob you of your children?

1 Samuel 15:3 "3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling , ox and sheep, camel and a$$."

Hosea 13:16 "Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up." Wow. Such a nice gentle caring god who is all warm and fuzzy inside. This book should clearly be read to children - correct?

2 Kings 15: 16 "Then Menahem smote Tiphsah, and all that were therein, and the coasts thereof from Tirzah: because they opened not to him, therefore he smote it; and all the women therein that were with child he ripped up."
Ezekiel 9:5-7 "And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity: 6 Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house. 7 And he said unto them, Defile the house, and fill the courts with the slain: go ye forth. And they went forth, and slew in the city."

Hosea 9:11-16 "As for Ephraim, their glory shall fly away like a bird, from the birth, and from the womb, and from the conception. 12 Though they bring up their children, yet will I bereave them, that there shall not be a man left: yea, woe also to them when I depart from them! 13 Ephraim, as I saw Tyrus, is planted in a pleasant place: but Ephraim shall bring forth his children to the murderer. 14 Give them, O LORD: what wilt thou give? give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts. 15 All their wickedness is in Gilgal: for there I hated them: for the wickedness of their doings I will drive them out of mine house, I will love them no more: all their princes are revolters. 16 Ephraim is smitten, their root is dried up, they shall bear no fruit: yea, though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb."

Exodus 12:29-30 "And at midnight the LORD killed all the firstborn sons in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn son of the captive in the dungeon. Even the firstborn of their livestock were killed. Pharaoh and his officials and all the people of Egypt woke up during the night, and loud wailing was heard throughout the land of Egypt. There was not a single house where someone had not died."

Exodus 21:14 -17 "But if a man come presumptuously upon his neighbour, to slay him with guile; thou shalt take him from mine altar, that he may die. 15 And he that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death. 16 And he that stealeth a man, and selleth him, or if he be found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death. 17 And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death."

Now do you think you should be put to death for cursing at your parents? Why ____? Why not ____? Or better yet should you follow these ridiculous laws at all? According to your fricken idiot bible you MUST!!!! Well what if your parents abuse, rape and torture you? Should they die?
* Exodus 21:17 "And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death."
* Leviticus 20:9 "For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him."
* Mark 7:10 "For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:"
* Matthew 15:4 "For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death."
* Matthew 10:21 "And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death."

Oh there's plenty more...
NKTheChef

Con

Very well, if you wish for this to be a debate about the existence of God, then I shall oblige.
2nd Samuel: God loved David, and it hurt him to do what he did. This was the punishment for the sin. But if we entertain God as real, we must realize he was sinless.

"If you remain hostile toward me and refuse to listen to me, I will multiply your afflictions seven times over, as your sins deserve. 22 I will send wild animals against you, and they will rob you of your children, destroy your cattle and make you so few in number that your roads will be deserted." Leviticus 26:21-22. This was in the law of the Hebrews. If they were hostile to God, then this would happen. But God created this out of love. It's like saying any parent whose spanked their kid was just as evil as God is to you.

Many of those other nations were messed up. One was sacrificing their newborns! God had to destroy them to stop the spread of their practices. He only worked out of love.

Exodus: The Egyptians were brutal to the Israelites. God had to find a way to stop their suffering.

OTher things
1. Jesus IS a real historical figure. It has been confirmed that he did live by extra-biblical sources.
2. Pontus Pilot has also been confirmed as a real person who lived. The Christians knew these thousands of years prior!
3. The impact of Jesus's life and his teachings makes it impossible to see Jesus as a liar or a lunatic. During the activities recorded in the book of Acts, they had no recordings of Jesus's teachings. Those teachings went from memories to letters, then FINALLY to what we have as the New Testament.
4. In the Old Testament, Jesus and the New Covenant had not yet come as well. What God had to do was to keep Isreal intact until Jesus was born.
5. And if Jesus was only a good moral teacher, then he would have lied about being the son of man.

other Evidences: https://irp-cdn.multiscreensite.com...
Debate Round No. 2
backwardseden

Pro

YOUR BIBLE DOES NOT PROVE YOUR GOD. Only YOUR god proves himself. As stated In which you cannot refute, YOUR god would NEVER use text as a source of communication, the worst form of communication possible. So every verse you use is 100% meaningless and useless. But I"ll get into a few to humiliate, degrade and dehumanize you just as YOUR god loves to do to others rather than bringing peace, harmony, joy, love, care for each other, etc which is what he should have done in the first place rather than all of this hate for no reason at all.

Btw, if you honestly think you can prove your god, then you"d be the ---only--- person on the planet who has ever done as such AND you"d be the only quadrillionaire on the planet AND billions would worship and fondle your toes and bring you gold and silver icons beyond all treasures of the universe. So why hasn"t ANY OF that happened? I"ll tell you why" its because YOU nor ANYONE can prove YOUR god. The only way YOUR god can be proved is if this god character stops playing a miss prissy truly childish game of hide-n-go-seek and presents himself to EVERYONE. Not just one small band or trifling tribe. Then again what moron would ---ever--- want to believe in this god who hates ""s of the human planet?

"Very well, if you wish for this to be a debate about the existence of God, then I shall oblige.
2nd Samuel whatever *yawn* you presented most certainly does not prove god.
Oh and btw let"s get into sin"
Matt Dillahunty "What is sin and why should I care about it? I understand why I should live an ethical life and treating people in certain ways, we have secular foundations for moral systems. But sin from the christian perspective is a crime against god or god"s nature itself - right? If god makes the rules and you violate it, that"s a sin. Well what if god makes a rule that you should kill your child, does that make it good? Caller " Yeah that"s where I do things that are not aligned in what the bible says." Matt "Yeah. But are they good things? Do you have good reasons to have that the things you are doing are not immoral? Like do you have an example? Like don"t confess to a crime or anything. For example the bible is opposed to homosexuality. Do you think there"s something immoral about those who are homosexuals?" Caller "Uh there"s none that I can think of." Matt "Yeah me neither. And so if the bible"s opposed to it add the bible is the word of god, and the Koran is opposed to it as well and the Koran is supposed to be the word of god as well, and there are two holy books and let them argue over who god is and what god thinks and until they can come up with a sound secular justification for homosexualiy being immoral then I don"t need to pay their views any money because its just an opinion at that point."

Sin is contradictory in your bible. Thus it cannot exist.
Does every man sin? Yes. There is no man who does not sin (I Kings 8:46; see also 2 Chronicles 6:36; Proverbs 20:9; Ecclesiastes 7:20; and I John 1:810) No. True Christians cannot possibly sin, because they are the children of God. Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is a child of God.. (I John 5:1). We should be called children of God; and so we are (I John 3: 1). He who loves is born of God (I John 4:7). No one born of God commits sin; for Gods nature abides in him, and he cannot sin because he is born of God (I John 3:9). But, then again, Yes! If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us (I John 1:8)

Sin? Lets use Homosexuality as an example as christians call it a sin? Really? According to what? The bible doesn"t say anywhere in the bible that its a "sin". Try harder. Nor does the bible say anything at all against gay marriages. And the words "gay" and "homosexual were not inserted into your bible until 1947. So try harder. The biggest sin is to go against god. Now if god were in the slightest bit genuine, in which we all know better that he's not, he---couldn't---care---less. Its like you using a bad word when you were young and your mother washing your mouth out with soap. Big whoop. But god has this frail fragile thing called an "ego" which is sandblasted all across the bible which means he's imperfect. And since he's imperfect it means he should not be bowed down to nor idolized, nor worshiped.
But the biggest sin there could possibly be - ever - of all time..................... since I will not believe in god, I am going to be denied a place in heaven by that simple little gesture. Well goodie for me, all the more reason for me to - never - believe in the monstrosity that is YOUR god, not mine.
What value do you place on sin, or if its not your view, it"s the bible"s. Let"s look at some examples... On a 1 to 10 scale...
*Homosexuality which has never done you any harm to you must = a 10
*no other gods before me must also = a 10
*shall not make for yourself a graven image must also = a 10
*take the name of the lord your god in vain must also = a 10
*remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy must also = a 10
*god ensues slavery and the beating of slaves so that must = a 10
*god loves raped women so that must = a 10
*god can justify his many genocides which would mean the killing of innocent babies, children and pregnant mothers which is extremely, excessively, unreasonably, and is foolishly contradictory and hypocritical = a 10
*god knowingly hates children = a 10
Raping, beating and torturing a child must = a 1 because children do not have a voice in the bible, to SCREAM. They get to say nothing. Their mouths are glued shut.
The abuser who is raping, beating and torturing a child must also = a 1 because there's no relevance into doing harm to a child in the bible.
In no way does god believe harmony, love, care for each other because otherwise peace would have already been achieved = a 1
If you do not see the horrific details behind YOUR religion, god and bible, and its fatalistic flaws and how valueless they are, then you are completely gone into another non existent universe. But then again, you like the typical christian, have probably not even picked up your bible and read past page 1.

Leviticus 26:21-22.
ROB YOU OF YOUR CHILDREN???? Yeah YOUR god truly HATES children to begin with. Still using an inaccurate version of YOUR BIBLE ESPECIALLY when the version you use misquotes characters from YOUR bible, ESPECIALLY YOUR FRICKEN GOD AS DONE HERE!!!! Now how do you think YOUR god feels about that one?
"This was in the law of the Hebrews. If they were hostile to God, then this would happen. But God created this out of love." OK I"m ending this. Only completely immoral and bankrupt insidious tepid little creeps like you could EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER for any reason could somehow justify that as "love". Your religion is based on exactly what YOUR god claims himself to having as anger, wrath, vengeance, rage, fury, jealousy. Jealousy? What from a supreme deity? Jealousy is nothing more than anger as disguised fear. Even worse is this supposed god of yours passed down those emotions so man could in turn learn to hate with all the baggage that comes along with it that these emotions clearly are that this god drags around with him. Hey god, dump those emotions and how"s about thinking about peace, kindness, love, caring for each other, harmony etc? Nah. So don"t talk to me or anyone that YOUR god is "good" with "love" when he is most certainly not anything like it. Not only that since this god of YOURS has these emotions it clearly means that he is imperfect. Now who in their right stale mind would ---ever--- want to bow down to an inferior supreme deity bile god such as the one you picked from your closet because what else could it be?
Strange isn"t it that in comparison that the Inca, many of the native American Indian tribes until your white man greasy sweaty racist pig christian wiped them out, the aborigines, Hindu"s, Gaia Mother Earth, Buddhists etc etc etc they do not practice nor preach nor go to war over their religions, not anywhere close to the evils nor hate that the christians do. Now why is that? And yet according to your god worshiping other gods is considered to be the most evil thing there is, and you should be stoned to death for it. So you follow your lord"s orders and you come on down here and stone me to death. Whatsamatter? You are not going to follow your god"s orders? Why? Why not?

"When you start making excuses for atrocities you have removed yourself from ANY valid discussion on morals. When you say "yes the bible says you can own slaves but" well now you"re contradicting yourself because before I was asking if you thought the bible was accurately representing the mind of god, the will of god. You"ve got this conflicted mess of contradictions and you"ve found a way to rationalize them. You"ve gone and looked at them and said "boy that one really sounds bad, BUT that"s what Israel was doing that"s not what god was doing. So let me ask you this" do you believe that there"s an all knowing all powerful fun loving god who has an important message for humanity and he is so completely inept that his best attempts at communicating to people managed to convey the exact opposite message of what you think he meant? Now like are you the one who got it right? And all the people who authored the holy book and got you started that they managed to get it wrong? Is your god such a bumbling buffoon that he cannot state "thou shalt not own somebody as another human being?" or "please don"t rape the people and pillage the villages around you"" and he managed to communicate so poorly that it got written down as "Thou shalt be able to own other people as property and oh by the way go over there and kill everybody kill everything except for the young virgins." Its asinine. You cannot reconcile this." Matt Dillahunty

This debate is now over because you are completely bankrupt and immoral and cannot possibly understand what love is. Bye.
NKTheChef

Con

If you do not want to contest, then do not read further than this paragraph. It is not a disciple's job to prove scriptures. It is ultimately a question of faith. To answer a large point in your argument, there are two different covenants in the Bible. the old and the new. And while God cannot be proved, the authenticity of the Bible CAN.

All of these come from extra-biblical sources:
1. 53 people from the old testament have been confirmed to walk the earth. Most notably, King David. (https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org...)

2. Pilate was a real man. This was recorded by a man named Tacitus: "They got their name from Christ, who was executed by sentence of the procurator Pontius Pilate in the reign of Tiberius" This shows that 1. They were called Christians (Acts 11) 2. Christ was real, and 3. Pilate was real.
(https://amazingbibletimeline.com...)
3. Another source of the authenticity of life of Jesus comes from the Jewish Rabbinical.
"Jesus was hanged on Passover Eve. Forty days previously the herald had cried, 'He is being led out for stoning, because he has practiced sorcery and led Israel astray and enticed them into apostasy. Whoever has anything to say in his defense, let him come and declare it.' As nothing was brought forward in his defense, he was hanged on Passover Eve."

Therefore, the authenticity of the Bible CANNOT BE DISPUTED.

Therefore, we know that Jesus was real and that his Followers were real. Why do you not want to believe that he is the Messiah?

Also, there is a little word that disproves your entire point about homosexuality. "O36;`1;`3;^9;_7;_9;_4;_9;^3;`4;_1;`2; " Translated, it means gay. This is found in 1st Timothy 1. And there is an amazing point that I heard. Homosexual does not mean gay. Homosexual is when you are attracted, gay is when you act out. A "straight" man can be gay, but he can't be homosexual.

Also, we were once sinless. We had God in us, but then the fall happened, by the choice of man. The children of God are free from sin as long as they repent and confess. God purifies us, he gives us free will, and we sin. But he forgives and forgets.

I believe in Jesus and the new covenant. If you wish to debate the old testament, find someone who is Jewish because that is their standard, not mine.

Also, you mentioned that the Bible says it is ok to own slaves. Yes, it does, but you forget the era that they lived in. That was the day and age they lived in. But they were called to be kind to their slaves. And for slaves to respect their masters in return.

And then there is a matter of the children. God needed a way to keep them in line. It is what a parent does to their kids. What else could he have done to get their attention? I do not pretend to know all of God's motives and thinking, but you are HIGHLY SELECTIVE OF YOUR SCRIPTURES AND REFUSE THE AMOUNT OF EVIDENCE THAT I HAVE GIVEN, WHICH, BY THE WAY, IS TENFOLD YOURS. You fill your posts with huge quotes about how Christianity contradicts itself, without ever showing more than a scrap of evidence.

But back to my initial point. The Bible has mountains of evidence supporting it, and in each of my posts you have waived it off. But in this post, I have proven that the Bible is a reliable source.

So I will move to another core of the Christan faith: The Ressurection.

1. We have no proof that ANYONE ever survived a Crucifixion. So we must conclude that Jesus died.

2. The empty tomb. No doubt you have heard this one before, but it was found empty. Even the earliest arguments against Christianity admitted that the tomb was empty.

3. The appearance of Christ after death. The Disciple saw or at least thought they saw Christ.
So, the either
1. Lied - They were his disciples, and if Jesus, at the very least, was a good moral teacher, which he was, then this is false.
2. Hallucination - this one has two possible parts.
2.1. they were drunk. See number 1.
2.2 Grief- Multiple people, at one time, with physical contact. That is not logical,
3. It really was the Messiah - This choice is true and reasonable and logically via the process of elimination.

So, in conclusion: 1. The Bible is real, confirmed by other sources. 2. God has his motives, he plan is greater than our comprehension. 3. The resurrection is real.
None of these can be disputed, especially not one or three. Just don't try to, I have evidence that contains first-person accounts.

Please don't attempt to reuse evidence. The case of the Bible is done through historical texts. And when I'm in heaven, I'll ask him about Leviticus, if I'm not too busy celebrating with him.

I have a concrete case for the Bible, and in extent, God. If you look at this evidence and cannot see it, then you are illogical.
However, there are two books that come to mind if you wish to study this further.
One is named "The New Evidence that demands a Verdict." I own a copy, and it is immense. But I think that all you'll need will be found in this pdf of the first bit of it- www.gracechapelsomd.org/books/The_New_Evidence_That_Demands_A_Verdict.pdf
The second book is a favorite of mine. It is titled "True and Reasonable" Unlike the other book, it proves the Bible through logic and reason.

If you got this far, I applaud you, it is my longest post yet. If you wish to end this argument here, I have no quarrel with that. If you don't, then I shall bring yet another mountain of evidence to the forefront, even more than I did this time.

But, deep down, you don't want the scriptures to be true. You don't want to have to change. Your arguments remind me of those of Darwin. And remember, many of his theories were wrong.

In fact, I know of two avid atheists, who turned to God. One is living today. He actually wrote a book on why God couldn't exist and has admitted that he is wrong.

The other person is C.S. Lewis. He tried to tackle scripture with science and changed his views. I hope God will show you the truth. There is only one more round left, and after we will be finished. Next round, I will continue to bring evidence, but, if you want, I will show what good will happen if you turn to God. God loves you and is sad right now that you don't love him in return. He led me to this debate to try to change your mind. If this evidence doesn't then that is because you don't want to believe that God is real.
Debate Round No. 3
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Debate Round No. 4
68 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 11 through 20 records.
Posted by backwardseden 3 years ago
backwardseden
then there"s 3 million jews in which there"s no evidence in which they were ever enslaved in Israel area, in Egypt. And btw if they held hand to hand they could have stretched from Egypt to Canaan in the first place. They led across all these miracles and everything else, miracles that would wow anybody today, they get to MT Ararat, moses is gone for forty days and those guys say "ah screw that god, we"ll make another one".This guy can"t do anything right. And yet he specifically chose this universe for he knew he was going to have to keep failing and keep killing and keep failing and keep killing and keep failing and keep killing until he picked out his special group and sent them around and keep failing and keep killing. And then there"s this empty period where he says "you know what? I"m going to take human form, sacrifice myself to myself to act as a loophole to act for rules that I can"t circumvent. It is logically absurd." Matt Dillahunty

Matt "Why do we mock the bible? Cause its ridiculous."
Caller: Why is that important to you?
Matt : "Cause I was a fundamentalist christian for some 20 odd years and came to the realization that my beliefs were entirely unjustified and that I see in the world and a bunch of other people who hold these unjustified beliefs and who attempt to act legislation upon others based upon those beliefs and I care about the truth and the people around them,"

"If you care about something is true, faith has no place. Your faith is indistinguishable from the faith of the people"s of those who disagree with you. Its not a path to truth. Faith is accepting something. Faith is gullibility. Faith is the reason, the excuse people give when they don"t have a good reason. I"m talking about how do we find a good reason. And if your only answer is "well the bible says so, or you just have to have faith", then you"ve demonstrated that you are not actually concerned whether its true." Matt Dillahunty
Posted by backwardseden 3 years ago
backwardseden
"The entire OT is pretty much a comedy of god"s errors and anger. He sticks two people in a garden in the most absurd situation and says don"t eat from this tree and probably realizes that this is a first time parent scenario. I think that the dumbest parent knew what was going to happen there. And so he has to punish them and exile them. And then the whole world goes to hell shortly thereafter and so he picks out the most righteous man in his family and decides to build a ridiculous boat which isn"t seaworthy and couldn"t hold all the animals. And then he"s going to flood and kill everything except for this family and animals at least if you go for a global flood is scientifically just is absurd and no other civilization seemed to notice this global flood, so it must have been a local flood so it doesn"t really solve the problem of sin. So right after Noah you have a couple hundred years where you have this massive population growth and their building this tower of babel which I don"t even know why a god would be the slightest bit bothered (I agree), this was clearly the mindset of these ancient people that this god was somewhere up in the sky, and no modern theologian says that"s not it at all cause clearly we can travel to the moon, I don"t know if we wave to god on the way past, but that fails and falls apart, so god decides instead of trying to save everybody he decides to pick out his one favorite tribe who happens to be enslaved and I"m pretty sure that they were pretty sure that there was a problem with slavery. And it goes through this incredible scenario of were going to give all these plagues and every time Pharaoh wants to let them go god comes down and wants to specifically hardens his heart so that he can show off a bit more "Oh no no no no no I"m not going to let you / violate Pharaoh"s free will. It specifically there. He hardens Pharaoh's heart so that he couldn"t do it. Gets all the plagues out of the way" (cont'd)
Posted by backwardseden 3 years ago
backwardseden
"Stop making excuses for your holy book. It is an abomination. It encourages abomination. And the more you sacrifice your humanity and morality to make excuses like "well god really wanted people to love each other but they just wouldn"t so they just wanted to nudge them in the right direction by saying you can own people but don"t beat them too damn much." Its still a weaka$$ immoral god. And YOU are better than that. Stop making excuses for the immorality. Take responsibility for your life and realize that if a GOD tells you that you can own somebody, that GOD is a piece of s--t." Matt Dillahunty

"I would say that instructions to kill homosexuals is immoral. I would say the subjugation of women is immoral. I would say that having women inferior position to men is immoral. I would say that selling your daughter into slavery is immoral. I would say that sacrificing the first thing that comes out of your house is immoral. I would say that substitutional atonement is immoral. I would say that the very concept of of sin is immoral" the idea that I could somehow offend a god or something that I could think or do which has no impact in or around in reality is immoral. I would say holding someone responsible for the sins of their father under the fourth or the tenth generation is immoral. How many more do you need before you recognize you are making excuses that advocates for immoral positions?" Matt Dillahunty

"The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully. Those of us schooled from infancy in his ways can become desensitized to their horror." - Richard Dawkins
Posted by backwardseden 3 years ago
backwardseden
Children watching violence on tv, bad. Children in church seeing a lifelike grotesque statue of a crucified man, good. Makes sense? - David Blickstein

EX 34:14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God: Pathetic

"We never built this to float. We designed this as a building for tourists to come to." Ken Ham

Religious people are defensive. And the dirty little secret is that they have an outward confidant belief in something that they don't really understand. And when they get questioned on it it kind of sets off processes in their own minds that "hey I don't really have a good reason for it and that makes me not so sure that the stuff I believe is true" and so they project that onto you and so they say like they say like this guy is saying is not true "persecute the infidel!!!" Russel Glasser.

"But there is no more evidence according to generalization that people like jesus getting resurrected from the dead than there is for people owning starships." Richard Carrier

Matt Dillahunty "How do you prove that god has revealed that everybody believes in him?"
Caller "Because that is what it says in the bible."
"First of all how do you know that is what GOD is saying in the bible?"
Don Baker "Where? And why do we give a s--t about the bible?"

"How do you think god is going to look at you when you decided on your own without guidance from god about which passages you should pay attention to and which ones you should conveniently ignore?" Matt Dillahunty

Don Baker "Let"s just take one quote for example "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live". That"s a quote in the bible. That"s a direct commandments from god. And hundreds of thousands of people have been killed for that quote. And its reprehensible. Its horrible. And I can think of no good reason for it. And if a god really did really write that he"s really f stupid for saying "hey btw, there"s no witches" Then laughter proceeds from Don.
Posted by WOLF.J 3 years ago
WOLF.J
Website is being irritating
Posted by WOLF.J 3 years ago
WOLF.J
Pro-lol Im sure I'l be fine. As mentioned, my main problem with hard-core religious people is that their whole life IS fear based, ie not open minded. If the priest tells something, who am I to question it. Conversely, in their defence, atheists and non believers demonstrate more anger towards society, as you've shown in your debate style. OTH, religious people seem to be content with life. (generalisation)

Lee, I'll get back to you on that offer, admittedly biology isn't my strongest point, so we may have to debate over creationism, but I'll get my debate with kruger over and done with first.

Con: [" that again highlights the sheer amount of fear and control required to belief in religion, whereas science requires no fear, just an open mind and a willingness to adapt." Ok, if you were a God, trying to help a people group stay true to themselves, what would you do?]

-Well I wouldn't want my fellowship going around slaughtering and committing mass genocides~crusades, in my name.

And also either me or you don't understand genetic mutations, mutations occur hereditarly due to environmental and situational adaptations, doesn't have to be artificial.
Posted by WOLF.J 3 years ago
WOLF.J
Pro-lol Im sure I'l be fine. As mentioned, my main problem with hard-core religious people is that their whole life IS fear based, ie not open minded. If the priest tells something, who am I to question it. Conversely, in their defence, atheists and non believers demonstrate more anger towards society, as you've shown in your debate style. OTH, religious people seem to be content with life. (generalisation)

Lee, I'll get back to you on that offer, admittedly biology isn't my strongest point, so we may have to debate over creationism, but I'll get my debate with kruger over and done with first.

Con: [" that again highlights the sheer amount of fear and control required to belief in religion, whereas science requires no fear, just an open mind and a willingness to adapt." Ok, if you were a God, trying to help a people group stay true to themselves, what would you do?]

-Well I wouldn't want my fellowship going around slaughtering and committing mass genocides~crusades, in my name.

And also either me or you don't understand genetic mutations, mutations occur hereditarly due to environmental and situational adaptations, doesn't have to be artificial.
Posted by LeeJohnson 3 years ago
LeeJohnson
@WOLF.J, if you'd like, we could argue for/against evolution - not only would it be an interesting debate, but I think it would bring awareness to science. Of course though, if you were to agree, we'd need to clarify the boundaries of such arguments.

Undoubtedly, though, I agree that both Pro and Con are not focusing on the topic of the debate. I'd like to add to your critiques of each one:

Pro,

1. After watching the videos myself, I think you wrongly interpreted that they merely prove "evolution". This alone undermines the integrity of the debate and your whole stance on evolution.
2. Your aggressive tone is just annoying - I think I speak on behalf of all Atheists and Christians alike.
3. You took a 180 and directly asserted claims, such as:

"YOUR god can be disproved, and rather easily, no matter which language you speak."

(Continued) 3. but you give no scientific evidence to disprove God's existence.
4. I also disagree with the notion of using 'videos' as a source of evidence. Better sources, in the near future, would be peer-reviewed, scientific literature, or conduct studies by universities or institutions.
5. I also just have one more statement I need you to address:

"YOUR BIBLE DOES NOT PROVE YOUR GOD. Only YOUR god proves himself."

(Continued) 5. If this were true, then why do you make so many debates about biblical contradictions; and how that would merely assert why God is false? I need some clarification.

Con,

1. While I agree with you at heart and as a fellow Christian, I agree with @WOLF.J's statement about you rejecting modern science - that's completely illogical. One can believe in the foundation of evolution, but also, believe in Christianity.
2. I disagree with you using the Bible as ONLY proof to prove the existence of God. There are more, considered better, arguments to prove the likeness of an Entity.
3. I wouldn't say things like "God is proved truth" or "He's proven true" - because we don't know comp
Posted by LeeJohnson 3 years ago
LeeJohnson
@WOLF.J, if you'd like we could argue for/against evolution - not only would it be an interesting debate, but I think it would bring awareness to science. Of course though, if you were to agree, we'd need to clarify the boundaries of such arguments.

Undoubtedly, though, I agree that both Pro and Con are not focusing on the topic of the debate. I'd like to add to your critiques of each one:

Pro,

1. After watching the videos myself, I think you wrongly interpreted that they merely prove "evolution". This alone, undermines the integrity of the debate and your whole stance on evolution.
2. Your aggressive tone is just annoying - I think I speak on behalf of all Atheists and Christians alike.
3. You took a 180 and directly asserted claims, such as:

"YOUR god can be disproved, and rather easily, no matter which language you speak."

(Continued) 3. but you give no scientific evidence to disprove God's existence.
4. I also disagree with the notion of using 'videos' as a source of evidence. Better sources, in the near future, would be peer-reviewed, scientific literature, or conduct studies by universities or institutions.
5. I also just have one more statement I need you to address:

"YOUR BIBLE DOES NOT PROVE YOUR GOD. Only YOUR god proves himself."

(Continued) 5. If this were true, then why do you make so many debates about biblical contradictions; and how that would merely assert why God is false? I need some clarification.

Con,

1. While I agree with you at heart and as a fellow Christian, I agree with @WOLF.J's statement about you rejecting modern science - that's completely illogical. One can believe in the foundation of evolution, but also, believe in Christianity.
2. I disagree with you using the Bible as only the proof to prove the existence of God. There are more, considered better, arguments to prove the likely existence of an Entity.
3. I wouldn't say things like "God is prove truth" or "He's proven true" - we don't know c
Posted by NKTheChef 3 years ago
NKTheChef
(Pt. 1)
@WOLF.J: Yes, I didn't watch the videos, because I had no idea where the argument would go. If their response had been Evolution oriented, then I would most definitely have watched the videos before responding. backwardseden wished for the topic to be on God and Religion, not on science, so I obliged.

"WELL it can be disputed because none of us where there, and all scriptures from the Bible to the Quran were overseen and written by multiple PEOPLE, not god, but PEOPLE." The bible had people in it, many people, that have not been proved to be real until recent times. For example, Pilate wasn't confirmed until as recently as 1961. Also, the sources that held the records weren't pro-Jesus. The records are from Roman and Jewish sources, and talk about Jesus negatively, but do prove his existence.

" that again highlights the sheer amount of fear and control required to belief in religion, whereas science requires no fear, just an open mind and a willingness to adapt." Ok, if you were a God, trying to help a people group stay true to themselves, what would you do?

"Also spontaneous gen is so ludicrous, I can't believe anyone backed that, everyone knows that energy can't be created or destroyed." This is what I'm saying! People don't want to change their beliefs.

"evolution is slow and gradual, genes mutate over time, you can't turn a monkey into a man artificially." The only way for genes to mutate is for there to be a mistranslation of DNA. When/if this happens, then Information is only detracted from the DNA. The only way for information to be added is artificial.

"As Con said evolution is constantly being rewritten, in other words, updating, and that is a good thing because it demonstrates adaptability and improves on inaccuracies." Forgive me if I wasn't clear, I never intended to say that science cannot be trusted. But the Bible has never needed to change. The only reason that Evolution has is that opposers found new evidence against it.
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