The Instigator
Champybeat
Pro (for)
The Contender
backwardseden
Con (against)

Existence of God

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 11/13/2017 Category: Religion
Updated: 11 months ago Status: Debating Period
Viewed: 297 times Debate No: 104999
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (1)
Votes (0)

 

Champybeat

Pro

Hello.
I. laws of logic, nature, mathematics:
I shall ask you as I did on the previous debate: where did the laws of logic come from in a naturalistic/materialistic worldview? In the Christian worldview, they stem off from the Sovereign"s nature; that is, the laws of logic are immaterial and universal. They are not possible in a universe without God, as they contradict the naturalistic/materialistic worldview, which asserts that only material, physical nature exists. And we can"t hit our head on the laws of logic and nature, can we?
II. uniformity in nature:
The universe continues to remain "regular". (E.g. the universe remains uniform). But why so? Why must the universe obey certain immaterial laws and continue to act orderly at all times and in all places.
III. information in DNA:
DNA contains genetic information. This is why you are who you are, rather than a cabbage. Where did such information come from?
IV. origin of the universe:
In the Christian worldview, the one who created the universe is timeless, spaceless, and immaterial - (he created time, space, and matter). What is a reasonable explanation for the origin of the universe by naturalistic processes alone?
V. origin of life:
We always* observe biogenesis. Abiogenesis is completely unscientific - it isn"t a theory, rather a hypothesis.
backwardseden

Con

Let"s get crystal clear here" its is always up to you, no exceptions, none, for you to prove your god. And that is something that you cannot do. After all no one has come close to doing as such. No one has been able to prove "let there be light" or "let the truth be known". It is also rather blatantly clear and obvious that you have been tyrannically brainwashed.
You state "laws of logic" when thinking, reasoning, rationalizing, common sense, and using logic do not exist within god, religion and your bible and they are totally 100% abandoned. If they did, then you would be the only sextioniare on the planet and your god would be the only god worshiped.
You mention non-contradiction in your other debate that was canceled. By that meaning I am assuming that you fully understand that your god, bible and religion are FILLED with super massive hypocritical contradictions? I mean you do understand that - correct?

The christian worldview" Here"s the atheist worldview which is correct and makes one heluva lot more sense because there really is no such a thing as a christian worldview because there"s no consensus on christianity to begin with"
"This is not just a matter of opinion. This is an entire branch of philosophy of epistemology about how we go about determining whether or not a ---claim--- is reasonably and rationally justified. And extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. The claim that there is a god is an extraordinary claim which requires more than just pointing to an old book. That is simply NOT rational to the claim. Sorry. Its not just an opinion. There"s more to life than that." Matt Dillahunty

Matt Dillahunty "The question is ill formed. The question is "what proof and evidence do you have that atheism is true"? Atheism is the position of NOT accepting the theological explanation. It is NOT accepting the god hypothesis. It is in fact the null hypothesis. It cannot be proven to be true. It is the default position. And christianity and Buddhism and Hinduism and Islam they have all failed to meet their burden of proof. Its not up to me to prove they are any gods anymore than it is up to me to prove that that there isn"t bigfoot or fairies or UFO"s. The default position, the null hypothesis is that these things aren"t true. And we wait and we reserve belief until they are demonstrated to be true. Does that make sense?
Caller "Does that mean atheism is not a worldview?"
Matt " That"s correct. Atheism isn"t a worldview. It doesn't have any pennants or dogma, no books, no authorities. It is a SINGLE position on a SINGLE question on the existence of gods. Now there is a world view that many atheists share. Most of us, at least with the ACA, are skeptics, that informs our worldview. Its my atheism as a direct product of skepticism. Many of us are secular humanists which tells us a little bit more about our moral outlook on life and other things. There"s many many many labels that would fit. There are a number of secular worldviews that are consistent with atheism. Just saying you are an atheist alone doesn"t say anything at all about somebody"s worldview. By the way most Buddhists are atheists. They don"t believe in a god. But they believe in any number of, in some cases, supernatural things that I don"t accept, some of them don"t accept that either, so yeah atheism is not a worldview. It can certainly be a part of a worldview. But its not a worldview in that broad sense." .,

Now go right ahead and describe "god". I mean no one else can. How can you after all describe something that you do not know and or something that NO ONE has EVER witnessed? Also who says that there has to only be one creator? You? How would you know? From what grade of intelligence does that come from? Oh and btw, YOUR bible states that there is more than one god with several different verses which is a super massive fatal flaw with being "us" and "our" in several different verses. The two videos below are irrefutable.
https://www.youtube.com... - God's of the Bible
https://www.youtube.com... - God"s of the Bible

So there"s no physical evidence for your god. None. So what"s left? All that"s left is faith. And faith is ---never--- a pathway to truth or knowledge. I mean ev-er-yt-hi-ng can be taken upon faith. Here"s a few things for you"

"Why would you believe anything on faith? Faith isn"t a pathway to truth. Every religion has some sort of faith. If faith is your pathway you can"t distinguish between christianity, Hinduism, judaism, any of these others. How is it that you use ---reason--- in every of the other endeavor in your life and then when it comes to the ultimate truth, the most important truth your"re saying that faith is required and how is that supposed to reflect on a god? What kind of a god requires faith instead of evidence?" Matt Dillahunty

"Faith is the reason people give when they don"t have evidence." Matt Dillahunty

"Faith can be very very dangerous, and deliberately to implant it into the vulnerable mind of an innocent child is a grievous wrong." Richard Dawkins

"Faith is the great cop-out, the great excuse to evade the need to think and evaluate evidence. Faith is the belief in spite of, even perhaps because of, the lack of evidence." Richard Dawkins

So what"s left after that? Well its simple. Why would anyone want to believe in your god? And why do you believe in your god? No that's not a trick question.
Is murder evil? Y____? N____? Is slavery evil? Y____? N____? Is rape evil? Y____? N____? Is hating gays and wanting to stone them to death evil? Y____? N____? Is deliberate genocide evil? Y____? N____? Is hating children evil? Y____? N____? Etc etc etc All of these your god has freely admitted to and participated in. Now you look it up if you don"t believe me. Your god is pure hate and immoral. If you think they are perfectly OK, then you are as immoral as your god.

Indeed god is far far far worse than Hitler, Mao, Pol Pot, Stalin, Hong Xiuquan combined. Here's some examples... 3,000 EX 32:27-28, 14,700 NU 16:49, 24,002 NU 25: 1-11, 12,000 JOS 8: 1-25, 10,000 JG 1:4, 120,000 JG 8:7-10, 42,000 JG 12:3-6, 1,000 JD 15:14-15, 3,000 JD 16:27-30, 25,101 JD 16:27-30, 1 SAM 4 34,002, 1 SAM 6:19 50,070, 2 SAM 8 65,850, 1 KI 20: 28-29 100,000, 1 KI 20: 30 27,000, KI 19 35 -37 185,000, 2 CHR 13 17-18 500,000!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, 2 CHR 28:6 120,000, Esther 9:5-18 75,813 etc etc etc Yeah god is really so moral huh? There"s no such a thing as "love" within any genocide.

Here's some example's of your god hating children...
2 Samuel 12:11-14 11, Deuteronomy 2:34,
Numbers 31:17-18, "17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. 18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves." describing joyous rape.

Leviticus 26:21-22 "And if ye walk contrary unto me, and will not hearken unto me; I will bring seven times more plagues upon you according to your sins. 22 I will also send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your children, and destroy your cattle, and make you few in number; and your high ways shall be desolate." Rob you of your children?

1 Samuel 15:3 "3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling , ox and sheep, camel and a$$."

Hosea 13:16 "Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up." Wow. Such a nice gentle caring god. This book should clearly be read to children - correct?

Now if you do not see something is seriously wrong here and wrong with your god, then something is seriously wrong with you.

We'll get into mathematics in RD2 if you want. Its pretty simple.
Debate Round No. 1
Champybeat

Pro

Hello.
Indeed, the burden of proof lies on the one making a positive assertion (and that would be me in this case [i.e. 'God does exist]). Can I technically prove God exists? No, no one can, but neither can we disprove God's existence (and before you jump on me for saying this, please, keep in mind, the burden of proof is on me). Therefore, we must search for evidence and see if it is reasonable to agree with the assertion, 'God does exist'.
To address your comment on being brainwashed: If this is to be a mature discussion, you must refrain from baseless assertions and ad hominem logical fallacies. Thank you.
Sir/Ma'am, before we address if the Bible is illogical, we must first provide a foundation for the laws of logic. Ironically, you are presuming the existence of these immaterial laws to make such objective claims - unfortunately for you, the laws of logic cannot possibly exist in a materialistic worldivew as they are immaterial. And before you say 'How do you know?', it's because they contradict the very definition of the worldview. It would be like saying God can exist in the materialistic/naturalistic worldview - it is just not possible. So I ask, where did the laws of logic come from, and why does the universe *have* to obey these laws at all times in all places?
Sure, I understand your comment. But I don't agree with it. I do not believe the Bible has contradictions. And let us be hypothetical and say it did: why would this be a problem in your worldview? You fail to offer an explanation for why the 'law of non-contradiction' exists in the first place - this specific law, the law of non-contradition, cannot exist in a worldview where only material nature exists - for the law, and all other laws of logic, are immaterial.
What in the world are you talking about, friend? Yes, there is a Christian worldview - the viewing the world through the eyes of a Christian.
I'm not seeing the point of why you used a quote from Dillahunty; I have yet to claim, 'God exists because he says so in Scripture'.
I have addressed the burden of proof statement above.
What God are you speaking of? I believe in the Christian God who has revealed himself. To offer a brief summary of who God is, and what Christianity is: He is the unchanging, infinite, eternal Creator of the universe, whom is immaterial, timeless, and spaceless, as he created time, matter, and space. He is our Maker, whom we have rebelled against. He is merciful, in that he sent his Son, Christ Jesus, to die on the cross to save us from our sins, and be resurrected three days later for our justification - proving himself to be the Son of God; if we admit we are a sinner, and believe Christ came to save us through his death and resurrection - accepting him as Lord - we are forgiven of our sins, and find ultimate satisfaction and joy in God - in whom alone we can find supreme happiness. And through our enjoyment of him, we bring glory to him.
Genesis 1 speaks of 'us'. You see, Christians believe in the Triune God - that is, God exists as three persons, who are one in essense, nature, and being, and therefore, one Triune God. Each member is fully Divine and to the utmost God - God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit.
Would the universe be in disorder if there were more than one authority? How could we know they all cooperated together? And how would polytheism offer a foundation for the laws of logic? Would not logic be subjective to each of the gods? Sure, you cannot disprove polytheism, atheism, monotheism, etc.; therefore, we must conclude which is most reasonable - and which I would assert Christianity.
Physical evidence? If that's what we are looking for we are quite narrow-minded. For God is immaterial. God is not made of matter, for he made matter. Faith is based on evidence, friend (e.g. laws of logic, uniformity in nature, laws of mathematics and nature, complexity of organisms, origin of universe, conscienceness, life, design in organisms [e.g. elephants, lightning bugs, seals, butterflies, worms, cats, dogs, the human brain], etc.). Faith comes in because even if we have overwhelming evidence for God, we still cannot technically 'prove' him. So we rationally accept his existence.
Atheists, of course, have faith indeed. For example, they have blind faith in the laws of logic existing; they completely lack a foundation for them. Therefore, they must assume they exist from the start apart from no foundation, even though these laws contradict a materialistic/naturalistic worldview.
And again, I would assert there is overwhelming evidence for God, and I would agree with Saint Paul in Romans 1. For he informs us that the eternal power and divine nature of God is clearly seen by all, so men are without excuse.
We can speak over each of these examples you mentioned (concerning the verses), one by one, if you desire to, but ultimately, your assertion is very, very ironic - such so as I am surprised you did not catch the irony. For if atheism is correct, morality is subjective. For example, to claim 'Murder is wrong', is a mere opinion if there is no absolute standard of right/wrong - rather, murder would be one chemical reaction acting on another in a 'dog-eat-dog' world.
We must remember that God is just. 1.) He is the Author of life, and being omniscient, knows fit when to give in take. I believe in the absolute sovereignty of God, therefore, ultimately, when one dies it was because the LORD willed it. And when one is born, it is because, ultimately, the LORD willed it. God does not murder, but he can kill, and when he does, it is just. The Canaanites, for example, continued in their wickedness for over 400 years (e.g. they offered child sacrifices to false gods).
God did not command rape, rather they were taken as wives. They had to be married, and the wife had to observe a period of cleansing and mourning.
Wrong is subjective in your worldview.
Also, again, are you trying to claim since evil exists, God doesn't? Well, if God doesn't exist, evil doesn't either, as morality is mere opinion - we would all soon cease to exist remembering absolutely nothing, anyways.
And finally, I noticed you most definiely ignored a lot of my previous arguments - which you are free to do so - but of course, one can not win a debate if they refuse to defend their self.

backwardseden

Con

Greetings.
"Indeed, the burden of proof lies on the one making a positive assertion" No it doesn"t. As proof, god is always negative because there"s always false hope. And no proof of his existence doesn"t help much with your claims. You also completely overlooked Matt Dillahunty"s statement. So I shall post it again.
"This is not just a matter of opinion. This is an entire branch of philosophy of epistemology about how we go about determining whether or not a ---claim--- is reasonably and rationally justified. And extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. The claim that there is a god is an extraordinary claim which requires more than just pointing to an old book. That is simply NOT rational to the claim. Sorry. Its not just an opinion. There"s more to life than that."

Do you understand what he"s saying here? Your god is an EXTRAORDINARY claim because you have no evidence. None. And you cannot point to your bible for any kind of proof. Why? Because no god would be stupid enough to communicate through text form, the worst form of communication possible. If you would like that"s easily proved. But that"s another subject.
Now can we disprove god? Yes. Unless you believe in utter hate and evil as your bible proves through the OT.
"The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully. Those of us schooled from infancy in his ways can become desensitized to their horror." - Richard Dawkins

Not only that but mathematics. Stephen Hawking and his colleague has proven that there is a mathematical equation that there is something gotten from nothing. In other words god was not needed to have created the known universe. And mathematical equations are the only facts that there are. 2 + 2 = 4 no matter which language you speak. Your god can be disproved no matter which language you speak.

"Therefore, we must search for evidence and see if it is reasonable to agree with the assertion, 'God does exist'." Who says so? And why with so much hatred and pure evil that your god brings? Sorry. Not doable.

"To address your comment on being brainwashed: If this is to be a mature discussion, you must refrain from baseless assertions and ad hominem logical fallacies. Thank you." Well what else would you call it? You are only 15 after all, you make baseless accusations yourself like your god MUST exist WITHOUT any kind of proof. I mean come on here. That"s NOT intelligent. And it certainly does not bring in any kind of education at all.

"Sir/Ma'am, before we address if the Bible is illogical, we must first provide a foundation for the laws of logic." No you immediately toss the bible to the dumpster. There you go again with the word "MUST". And who is this "we"? Um no. Its you. Christianity has taken a nosedive plunge of 5.1% since 2007 and atheism has doubled since. 5.1% is a HUGE number. Search for something truthful, with meaning.

"unfortunately for you, the laws of logic cannot possibly exist in a materialistic worldivew as they are immaterial." What on earth are you squawking about? Of course they are. 2 + 2 = 4. Logical. So only you truly knows what he is talking about. Please invent better excuses. I"ve been doing this for 42+ years and have talked with roughly 25,000 on this subject and no one has invented that specific pile of hypocritical contradictions which is so typical of the christian speech and bible. Its a silly referendum.

"and why does the universe *have* to obey these laws at all times in all places?" Who ever says it does? Sheesh. See the atheist position as well as ALL good scientist positions are when they don"t have the answer to something, and they certainly don"t have the answers to the inner working of the universe, they say "I don"t know". Now repeat after me" "I don"t know". Its not "I don"t have an answer or the answer, therefore god."

Really? You don"t believe YOUR bible has contradictions? WOW. Have you even read the damn fricken thing? Here"s a few for you right off the bat. And its either so obvious that you have not read the bible or you are extremely uneducated and unintelligent and cannot comprehend the word "the". No offence but very truthful. Now all of these if NOT contradictions ARE inconsistencies making your bible unreadable" But here"s a few blatant contradictions".
https://infidels.org... - Bible Inconsistencies - Bible Contradictions?
GE 2:17 Adam was to die the very day that he ate the forbidden fruit.
GE 5:5 Adam lived 930 years.

GE 4:15, DT 32:19-27, IS 34:8 God is a vengeful god.
EX 15:3, IS 42:13, HE 12:29 God is a warrior. God is a consuming fire.
EX 20:5, 34:14, DT 4:24, 5:9, 6:15, 29:20, 32:21 God is a jealous god.
LE 26:7-8, NU 31:17-18, DT 20:16-17, JS 10:40, JG 14:19, EZ 9:5-7 The Spirit of God is (sometimes) murder and killing.
NU 25:3-4, DT 6:15, 9:7-8, 29:20, 32:21, PS 7:11, 78:49, JE 4:8, 17:4, 32:30-31, ZP 2:2 God is angry. His anger is sometimes fierce.
2SA 22:7-8 (KJV) "I called to the Lord; ... he heard my voice; ... The earth trembled and quaked, ... because he was angry. Smoke came from his nostrils. Consuming fire came from his mouth, burning coals blazed out of it."
EZ 6:12, NA 1:2, 6 God is jealous and furious. He reserves wrath for, and takes revenge on, his enemies. "... who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? His fury is poured out like fire, and rocks are thrown down by him."
2CO 13:11, 14, 1JN 4:8, 16 God is love.
GA 5:22-23 The fruit of the Spirit of God is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.

GE 4:16 Cain went away (or out) from the presence of the Lord.
JE 23:23-24 A man cannot hide from God. God fills heaven and earth.

GE 18:20-21 God decides to "go down" to see what is going on.
EX 12:13 The Israelites have to mark their houses with blood in order for God to see which houses they occupy and "pass over" them.
PR 15:3, JE 16:17, 23:24-25, HE 4:13 God is everywhere. He sees everything. Nothing is hidden from his view.

EX 15:3, 17:16, NU 25:4, 32:14, IS 42:13 God is a man of war--he is fierce and angry.
RO 15:33, 2CO 13:11, 14, 1JN 4:8, 16 God is a god of love and peace.

EX 20:12, DT 5:16, MT 15:4, 19:19, MK 7:10, 10:19, LK 18:20 Honor your father and your mother is one of the ten commandments. It is reinforced by Jesus.
MT 10:35-37, LK 12:51-53, 14:26 Jesus says that he has come to divide families; that a man's foes will be those of his own household; that you must hate your father, mother, wife, children, brothers, sisters, and even your own life to be a disciple.
MT 23:9 Jesus says to call no man on earth your father.

All of those are supermassive major hypocritical contradictions in YOUR bible in which you clearly have not read, and or not comprehended. There are a good thousand or more of them in YOUR bible making YOUR bible truly unreadable to those that are intelligent and have an education. Granted, what is in your bible are inconsistencies as well. But not in the list presented above.

A christian worldview? Nope. "If you try to get clarification, if you try to get what the christian orthodox view is on the law, you're not going to find consensus. You"re not going to find christians "oh here"s what christians think about" they"re all going to have this concept of this different thing now. But as far as it applies and why and what to do with it, they"re all different. Its going to be a hard argument because most have different ideas about it and most are going to change their ideas and start tweeking them as soon as they have to start answering questions because they haven"t looked into it before most of them." Tracie Harris
Am out of space.
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Debate Round No. 5
1 comment has been posted on this debate.
Posted by backwardseden 11 months ago
backwardseden
How many characters have you set up with this time? Its gotta be at least 8,000. But for the best benefit, 10,000. No less. Oh and btw, and think about this before you go head-locked into something in which you clearly know absolutely nothing about... "where did the laws of logic come from in a naturalistic/materialistic worldview?" and "They are not possible in a universe without God" Now how do you know? Nice guess. Especially the one according to the supposed god in the bible in which you cannot even prove exists. If you could prove this god exists, you'd be the only person in all human history, the only sextioniare, and your god would be the only one worshiped even though according to your bible, your god is NOT known as "one" but as "us" and "our" which is a super massive contradictory hypocritical fatal flaw in which your bible is loaded with hypocritical contradictions and inconsistencies in the first place. Yeah. You don't even know WHAT YOUR god is because nobody does. There's no describing this supposed god because you have absolutely no idea. What you say is "I don't know" because you don't. But those word are true terrorist words to any christian because you must at all costs believe that YOUR god is perfect in which this god most certainly is not. YOUR god also hates children, women, loves genocides, raped women, ensues slavery, demands and orders death for gays, those that do not worship and believe in him, work on the sabbath, commit adultery, curse at their parents (so much so that's its listed AT LEAST 5 times in YOUR bible), etc etc etc
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