The Instigator
Pro (for)
3 Points
The Contender
Con (against)
1 Points

Flying Spaghetti Monster v. Abrahamic God

Do you like this debate?NoYes+1
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 3 votes the winner is...
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 8/5/2014 Category: Religion
Updated: 7 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 4,432 times Debate No: 60040
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (13)
Votes (3)




Round 1 is acceptance
Rounds 2/3/4 are for arguments and rebuttals
Round 5 shall have no new arguments.

Failure to adhere to these rules will result in a forfeiture.

I argue that the Flying Spaghetti Monster is as likely to exist as the Abrahamic God, if not more likely.

I have burden of proof to show that God is less likely, or as likely to be real as the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

I hope for a good debate.


Hello, i hope to see a good debate. Its important to note that i"m evangelical Christian.

Couple years ago i would agree with your position, but now i think you strongly wrong. This will be a great chance for me to see if i got it right by switching from position that every religion is without evidence to Christian faith. I hope both of us will respect other and have fun ;)

Debate Round No. 1


The amount of proof for the Flying Spaghetti Monster is absolutely insurmountable. Not only is there mathematical proof of His existence, but there is also visual proof of Him everywhere. You may wonder why you cannot see His Noodliness, but that is because He is intangible, omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent, invincible, all-powerful, inaudible, unprecedented, all-seeing, and only He knows the answer to life the universe and everything.

Visual Evidence

We have indesputable video evidence of Him creating our universe. ()

This is Earth's magnetic field (

This is a cave painting dating back to as fa as 23,000 BCE, 19,000 years before the bible claims that the earth has existed.

Mathematical Evidence

FSM is known as the god of pirates. (
Here is direct evidence of FSM's pirate powers. (

Scientific Evidence

This picture shows the relation between pasta and DNA. Still not convinced? DNA is made of amino acids. Amino Acids also create proteins. Meatballs are made of proteins. Checkmate Atheists.

This is the Higgs Boson, otherwise known as the god particle (

If the FSM is not real, then why are the planets shaped like meatballs? (

Pokemon Evidence

If FSM is not real, than how can we know his stats? (

The gospel of His Noodliness can be found here. (


First of all let me present my arguments and then i will go true yours. When we are talking about difference between God of the bible and f.s.m we must realize some distinct differences:
1) Bible is based on solid historical evidence. Almost no one in modern scholarship denies Jesus existence as real historical person. You can dig up/see the places which are said in the bible. Just consider this:
History - John Mcray (Professor of NT archaeology) says:

"Archaeology has not produced anything that is unequivocally a contradiction to the Bible," he replied with confidence. "On the contrary, as we"ve seen, there have been many opinions of skeptical scholars that have become codified into "fact" over the years but that archaeology has shown to be wrong." Strobel, Lee (2009-07-27). The Case for Christmas: A Journalist Investigates the Identity of the Child in the Manger (p. 46). Zondervan. Or you can just go to

Jesus existence
Jesus is real historical person who lived 2000 years ago. We have more evidence on him then we need:
a) We have 27 biblical sources written by many different authors " Matthew, Mark,Luke (Luke.Acts),John, Paul, Somebody close to Paul (in case of Hebrews),James,Peter,Jude. Thats nine sources on him.

b) Then we have Jewish sources on Jesus "Jewish historian Josephus ( 37 to 100 AD) had writen about Jesus in two places. He writes about him in Antiquities 18.3.31 and Antiquities 20.9.1. Yes there are some problems with first one,but i will not get into it. If you want we can talk about that. Second Babylonian Talmud is talking about him.

c) We have roman sources like ,,Thallus,Tacitus,Mara Bar-Serapion, and Serapion" (Quote from Cold Case Christianety).
But we have no historical evidence supporting f.s.m. We know that it was started by Bobby Henderson in 2005 who wrote it in his open letter to protest against creationists. (source "wiki) And no reason to think its earlier.

2) There are good reasons to believe in resurrection as real event that happened. Gary Habermas developed apologetic method of defending it. It starts by stating facts that are supported by almost every NT scholar/Historian of that time (and remember most of them aren"t believers in Orthodox Christian teachings) " including atheist/Jewish scholars. I will be using variant used in book, Case for resurrection". Which has 4+1 fact. Its important to note that I will use only what atheist scholars will give me.

a) First fact " Jesus died by crucifixion. This is agreed almost by 100% of NT scholars. Just look at these quotes:
,,That (Jesus) was crucified is as sure as anything historical can ever be, since both Josephus and Tacitus... agree with the Christian accounts on at least that basic fact." J.D.Crossan (from
If you think that J.D.C is a conservative Christian let me remind you that he was founder of Jesus seminar. Which dismissed 80% of Jesus sayings in NT.
The reason why they believe it is:

1) We have biblical sources (Mark, Matthew, Luke, John, Pauls letters and pretty much all other)

2)We have non-Christian sources " Josephus, Tacitus, Lucian, Mara Bar-Serapion, Talmud.(From Case for Resurrection)

3) That"s not the best way to invent story. Why to do that if your story will not be respected by Jews or Gentiles.

4)Many other reasons.

b) Second fact- Jesus followers believed that he had risen from dead. This fact is supported by:

1st All gospels claim that.
2 Paul claims that
3 Oral tradition (1 Cor 15:3-7) which is dated not more then 5 years after Jesus death.
4 Also early church fathers " Clement, Polycarp " agree.

c)Third fact is conversion of Paul. Remember Paul was enemy of Christians and he converted after seeing vision of Jesus. How do we know?
1st Paul writes it in his letters
2 Acts confirms
Hes sufferings:
1)Pauls letters
3)Clement of Rome
We have good evidence for hes conversion and sufferings for Christ.

d) Fourth fact is James also converted from unbelief to belief.

1st Gospels report Jesus brothers unbelief.
2nd 1 cor 15:3-7 report that Jesus appeared to James.
3rd After James becomes leader of church.

Hes death for Christ is reported:
1st by Josephus
2nd Hegesippus
3rd Clement of Alexandria
e) Fifth fact is that tomb was empty
This is not supported by almost 100% scholars, but around 75%. A lot of arguments can be given here:
1st Recorded in all gospels. Also a lot of reasons that Paul believed.
2nd Woman found the tomb empty. If that is not true then why in planet earth you write that woman found tomb empty. Knowing that they had almost no power to testify at that time.
3rdThe earliest theory about it was that disciples stole the body. Why was that if body was in the tomb. - Matthew 28:13

I believe that the best explanation of this fact is Jesus resurrection. First of all it explains all the facts, second any alternative theory will need to use at least two explanations for this " explaining what disciples/Paul/James saw + empty tomb. But lets see if you can give me a better explanation.
What is my argument?
1st I pointed out that bible is a historical source
2nd That its written by eyewitnesses
3rd There is a good reason to believe in resurrection.
Your argument

We have indisputable video evidence of Him creating our universe. (

You have to give me evidence this is real video footage of real creation act and not created by people promoting this philosophy.

This is Earth's magnetic field (

First of all this is how it looks:
Yes, it looks like spaghetti, but this is just your interpretation. You are searching for things that look like spaghetti and when you find something you use it as proof.

This is a cave painting dating back to as fa as 23,000 BCE, 19,000 years before the bible claims that the earth has existed.
Prove me this is truly real painting, from real cave. This can easily be a fake. Show me some scholar sources on this. Second, this can be a spaceship. Why do you think your interpretation is right.

FSM is known as the god of pirates. (
Again show me some scholarly sources.
This is you forcing math to work for you the same as Muslims are doing to prove Qur'an.

Here is direct evidence of FSM's pirate powers. (
Again, not much here. You must show that the blief of f.s.m is not created in modern times.

This is the Higgs Boson, otherwise known as the god particle (
If the FSM is not real, then why are the planets shaped like meatballs? (
Again, you"re trying to find something to fit your theory. You have to give something better then forcing something to fit.

If FSM is not real, than how can we know his stats? (
You have to prove me that this is not just humans imagining its powers. If you want to use this as proof then be consistent and conclude that you believe that all Pok"mon and Yugioh cards are real because you know their powers.

Used sources:
"Strobel, Lee (2009-07-27). The Case for Christmas: A Journalist Investigates the Identity of the Child in the Manger (p. 46). Zondervan.
"Van Voorst, Robert E. (2000-03-01). Jesus Outside the New Testament: An Introduction to the Ancient Evidence (Studying the Historical Jesus. Eerdmans Publishing Co - A. Kindle Edition.
"J. Warner Wallace (2013) Cold-Case Christianity: A Homicide Detective Investigates the Claims of the Gospels. Page 43.
"Gary R. Habermas;Michael R. Licona. The Case for the Resurrection of Jesus
Other sources:
Debate Round No. 2


"Bible is based on solid historical evidence."

If anybody can show me scientific proof of a world wide flood , scientific proof that the human race could be populated by incest (twice)*, or scientific proof that the earth was invented in six days, I will concede that Pro's claim here is correct. Let me see the 6,000 year old rocks, or the proof that Jews were ever really slaves in Egypt ( There's no proof that Mount Sinai ever even existed (

*Between 8 people(family) repopulating the earth after the flood, and Adam and Eve populating the earth in the first place, the bible really loses a lot of its scientific credibility. "If you start a new population with a group of "average" people, then the numbers I've heard are around 160 or so, 80 men and 80 women. With some genetic engineering, you could bring that number down to 80 or so." (

Answers in Genesis tries to claim that "the description of "behemoth" in chapter 40 of the book of Job (Job lived after the Flood) only fits with something like a sauropod dinosaur. The ancestor of "behemoth" must have been on board the Ark."

This would make sense if the sauropod didn't weigh 100 metric tons and wasn't 1/4 of the size of the ark itself.

"Archaeology has not produce anything that is unequivocally a contradiction to the Bible."

I disagree. Also, the link provided doesn't lead to an article for some reason. I noticed that my links had the same issue too, so I shall give Pro the benefit of the doubt. The reason that I disagree with this statement is that "Israeli archaeologists uncovered the 8,000-year-old remains of a prehistoric structure nestled away in the upscale neighborhood of Ramat Aviv. The cornerstone of the ancient building, which lies on a construction site for exclusive apartments, long precedes the time of Abraham and the rest of the Bible"s figures." (

While not too much archaeology disproves the bible, let us have a look at paleontology. The oldest dinosaur ever found is around 230 million years old ( To be fair, that is a mere 230 million years older than the bible claims the earth is. Just because the bible claims the earth is a certain age does not mean that is true. The idea that "the bible is true. We know this because bible is infallible. We know the bible is infallible because it says so." is rediculous. (

Modern science also says that the earth is 4.54 billion years old, and that the universe is 13.8 billion years old. Not too far off the Bible's prediction right? What different does 4,539,994,000 make?

Existence of Jesus

A)How can anybody be sure that these men even existed? I'd like to see historical proof of them first.

B) Why would you quote a source and then follow with "yes there are some problems with [the source]"?
Also, even if Jesus existed, that in no way proves that he was the son of god. If I asked for a bunch of guys to start writing about me 20 years after my death, and I became a famous, does that really make me the son of a higher power? I should get on that.

C) I'd like a source that proves any Romans wrote about him. What do you mean there is no historical evidence supporting his noodliness? Nine years ago the prophet Bobby Henderson saved the world by proving the existence of FSM. You can't claim that FSM doesn't exist as he exists outside of the universe. He is his own entity. In the Gospel of FSM, Bobby Henderson explains that the "Earth was created in approximately 0.062831853 seconds and was similarly disguised to appear much older. We can be certain that the FSM spent even more time preparing the earth, because, being all knowing, He was well aware that soon enough there would be nosy people poking around everywhere. Known as "scientists" these nosy people have a sick figure out how things work, and so it was even more important that our apparent reality be well designed to hide the truth."

2) Crucifixion was a very common method of killing in Roman times. It's not exactly hard to believe that one more crucifixion happened. "Roman Law of the Twelve Tablets codified the death penalty... Death was often cruel and included crucifixion, drowning at sea, burial alive, beating to death, and impalement (often used by Nero)." (

The part I cannot believe is that he could have risen from the dead. Am I being told that he could walk on water, clone bread, turn his blood into wine, yet couldn't withstand a couple of nails? This is the supposedly god being talked about here. It's also an insult to any supreme being to think that a perfect entity would ever let flawed entities to have authority over him. Why didn't Jesus take down the entire Roman army to prove his power? He could have saved humanity by converting everyone right then and there. An all knowing god would figure out that science would disprove his existence, and do something about it before hand.

1) As I stated before, I want proof that these guys even existed. They could have been forgeries. When they were "found" there was no way to claim that they didn't really exist. They could have just been inserted into a bible some years ago. Also, none of these people ever met Jesus. "There"s no indication from Scripture that Paul and Jesus ever met before the Damascus Road incident. And Acts 9:4-7 doesn"t specify whether the Lord"s encounter with Paul was physical or not. It only says Paul saw a bright light and heard a voice..." That sounds like a classic case of schizophrenia. Not a higher power. (
2) Actually, Christian sources were never mentioned. Followers of Jesus considered themselves Jewish. "Christ never called himself a Christian, Christ never called his followers Christians. The apostles never called each other Christians. Christ never used an adjective to describe himself. " (

3) Yeah, why make something up if men and Jews don't agree? Let's forget about non-Jewish women.

4) "Many other reasons" is not a reason.

4B) "Muslims do not believe that Jesus died on the cross" (

if this is a fact, then why do 1/3 of all follower of the Abrahamic god disagree?

Muslims don't even believe that Jesus was the son of god. They don't believe that he is god either. Why do so many followers of the same god have different stories? I argue that it is because many of the ideas we westerners have, were made up by other westerners. Back 1,000 years ago, just because a vast majority of people in England believed something, that did not mean it would make its way to the Ottomans.

C) Would anybody believe that Tom Cruise saw Jesus? He's a non-Christian.

D) Read the above point. The conversion of James means nothing.

"You have to give me evidence this is real video footage of real creation act."

Of course it is real. FSM has hidden video proof in every continent. How else would the Italians have learned of his existence?

"You are searching for things that look like spaghetti."

Do Christians not look for things to fit their arguments? Also, how can one not see the link? He wanted to make sure we were advanced enough when we learned the truth. That way obviously fake stories about him would not go viral. *ahem* like in the bible. *ahem*

I googled the picture many times and only found links to the Church's page. It's clearly a sign from His Noodliness.


The Qur'an is the word of Pro's god as well. Is this Pro admitting to being wrong?


Oi, my fault i didn"t define my position. Yes if you need evidence for young earth creationism go to answers in genesis, but i"m old earth evolutionist. I do believe in old Universe and in evolution. If you want to know how can Christian believe in this you can read John C. Lennox book ,,Seven days that divide the world" or you can get a new book by Ronald E.Osborn ,,Death before the fall"

About flood i"m not really sure. I think i agree with Hugh Ross view about flood.
But i"m not sure about that.

I do believe that bible is 100% word of God and has no errors, but the question is interpretation here. I believe and i can show you that old earth not only doesn"t contradict bible, but goes really well with it.

What about slaves in Egypt? First of all you can get 47 page book of this question for free. Just go to and search ,,Slaves in Egypt" and find a free e-book.

There's no proof that Mount Sinai ever even existed. Well historians aren"t sure about where it was. Some think Har Karkom. Just because we aren"t sure what was the mountain that doesn"t show that record was wrong.

8 people(family) repopulating the earth. I"m not a scientific apologist. I"m focusing on theology and maybe history. I will just direct you to

Behemoth- I don"t believe that"s dinosaur. Job is written in poetic way and that is poetic description. That"s most likely hippopotamus. Read Hugh Ross book ,,Hidden treasures in book of Job" author explains this.

I don"t have to answer attacks on 6000 year old earth. Because I agree that its old.

a. First of all we still have multiple sources even if you don"t believe they wrote it. Second why don"t you accept biblical sources as evidence? Third we have early church fathers.

B. Problem of source- I just pointed out that there are some problems, but text still supports my point even if there are some corruptions. And that"s only one of two places Josephus talks about Jesus.

Also, even if Jesus existed, that in no way proves that he was the son of god. Agree, but that"s not my point. I pointed out that we are talking about real historical person. Again Jesus existence is almost not questioned by NT scholars/Historians except some individuals who don"t represent even highly skeptical scholars.

C) Roman sources: Suetonius, Tacitus, Pliny the younger. Ok, but you still don"t ave any evidence for him. My faith is based on real historical person your position is based on something someone said. How do you know your right and Mormons, Muslims, Buddhists are wrong because they also claim the same.

Yes I agree Jesus could free himself without any problems. But you don"t understand why he did that. He did that because God is a perfect being, who is perfectly loving, but in the same time perfectly just. The same way judge cannot be just by just forgiving a crime, God can"t just forgive. Every crime must be punished, but he took our punishment on himself once and for all. Could me made them to believe? Yes, by forcing them. But why do think he needed to force them into believing?

Did Paul met Jesus? No, I believe not. Can we trust he"s records about Jesus if he didn"t met him? Yes, if he"s sources come from disciples.

Was Jesus body physical. Well what resurrection meant to a Jew of that time. Only physical event, if he thought he saw a spirit that wouldn"t be called resurrection. That"s why they were putting bones of dead in boxes. They believed that one day body will rise again. Read some Craig Evans books about that.

Christ never called himself Christian- Christian means follower of Christ, why would Jesus call himself follower of Christ? That name come started after Christ"s death.

4b Yes and I think that"s where Islam has the biggest problem to solve. They must disagree with modern NT scholars because their faith doesn"t allow.
if this is a fact, then why do 1/3 of all follower of the Abrahamic god disagree? Because they are following 7th century Arab who shows really weak understanding of Christianity himself.

C) Would anybody believe that Tom Cruise saw Jesus? He's a non-Christian. No, saying that you saw somebody doesn"t mean truth, but if you are ready to get tortured for that then I at least have to conclude you believed that you saw him.

No I"m just stating facts about Jesus death burial and appearances which even skeptic agree. I don"t think I"m forcing evidence here the same way you do.

The Qur'an is the word of Pro's god as well. Is this Pro admitting to being wrong?
What? If bible is true Qur'an is false and if Qur'an is true bible is false. We can"t put then together. I do not believe that Qur'an is word of God. Its written by 7th century Arab who as I pointed out probably didn"t even understand our faith well.

Other points
We have no reason to believe that the founder of your religion had faced any non natural force. But we have good reason to think that followers of Jesus experienced it. We have really good evidence that at least 20 people died proclaiming that he was risen and good point can be made about over 500 recorded in 1 Corinthians 15:6. Look at this quote by Pliny the Younger:

,,I have never been present at an examination of Christians. Consequently, I do not know the nature of the extent of the punishments usually meted out to them, nor the grounds for starting an investigation and how far it should be pressed"I have asked them if they are Christians, and if they admit it, I repeat the question a second and third time, with a warning of the punishment awaiting them. If they persist, I order them to be led away for execution; for, whatever the nature of their admission, I am convinced that their stubbornness and unshakeable obstinacy ought not to go unpunished"They also declared that the sum total of their guilt or error amounted to no more than this: they had met regularly before dawn on a fixed day to chant verses alternately amongst themselves in honor of Christ as if to a god, and also to bind themselves by oath, not for any criminal purpose, but to abstain from theft, robbery, and adultery,"This made me decide it was all the more necessary to extract the truth by torture from two slave-women, whom they call deaconesses. I found nothing but a degenerate sort of cult carried to extravagant lengths."
Wilkins, Michael J.; Moreland, J. P. (2010-12-21). Jesus Under Fire: Modern Scholarship Reinvents the Historical Jesus

Also we have non Christian sources recording that world went dark+earthquake recorded by Thallus, but we only have hes work in Julius Africanus writings who quoted him. I can't post the full quote because its to long, but you can find it in:

Julius Africanus, Extant Writings, XVIII in The Ante"Nicene Fathers, ed. by Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1973), vol. VI, p. 130

You can get it free on e-sword bible software. He records:
,,On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in the third book of his History, calls, as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun. "

Then we have Josephus in Antiquities 18.3.3 probably records him as miracle work even if we remove forged parts of that.

Then we have Babylonian Talmud 43a in which we see a lot of bad things said about Jesus, but he did do magic.
And again we have christian sources. Even skeptical scholars at least believe that they thought he did miracles.

Conclusion about round

1) I don't think my opponent refuted any of 5 facts about Jesus resurrection or gave alternative explanation of them.
2)I don't think he gave good reasons to believe f.s.m
Debate Round No. 3


My computer keeps on crashing and I just lost two huge responses. I'm not going to try again as it will be in vain. I regret having to do this because this is my last chance to argue. Can we call this a tie? Or least bend my own rules so I can make rebuttals in round 5?


OK, this happens with everyone. I think that i will leave this decision to you. If you don't respond in the next round its a tie, if you do then we will have the last round. As you want!
Debate Round No. 4


SocialistAtheistNutjob forfeited this round.


Ok, that's a tie then. Still thanks for a short debate. And hope that the readers will consider both of our positions and arguments. And decide themselves.

This is the Christian gospel if you want to watch.
Debate Round No. 5
13 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Sagey 7 years ago
Typing OMFSM would take more time than OMG, and I'm very lazy!
Posted by SocialistAtheistNutjob 7 years ago
Flying Abrahamic Monster vs. Spaghetti God.
Posted by Sagey 7 years ago
Maybe it should read: Flying Spaghetti God vs Abrahamic Monster.
Posted by Sagey 7 years ago
Cannot commit blasphemy of the FSM.
The punishment is worse than Hell.

An eternity of No Sauce!
Cannot handle spaghetti without sauce, it's a fate worse than death.
I dare not commit blasphemy!
Posted by SocialistAtheistNutjob 7 years ago
Also, I ran out of space. I will address more of Con's blaspheme towards FSM in the next round.
Posted by SocialistAtheistNutjob 7 years ago
Shoot. I said Pro a lot, when I meant Con.
Posted by Godisthekey 7 years ago
I debated Mormons, Muslims and atheists multiple times and on different topic. But this is just getting little weird. ;)
Posted by dawndawndawndawn 7 years ago
rah ah ah ah ah ah ah ahh ahh ahhhhhh
ahh ahh ahh ah ahhhhh ahhhhh
Posted by SocialistAtheistNutjob 7 years ago
Posted by Sagey 7 years ago
FSM is more appetizing!

3 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Vote Placed by Sagey 7 years ago
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:--Vote Checkmark3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:01 
Reasons for voting decision: I cannot decide on this as neither has demonstrated substantial evidence for existence of the FSM nor the Abrahamic God. so neither has satisfied their BOP commitment. So on conclusion the FSM is equally likely to exist as the Abrahamic God. Though Pro either forfeited the last round or missed out on presenting a final argument, so Conduct point goes to Con
Vote Placed by Mister_Man 7 years ago
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:30 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro had just as "reliable" sources to "prove" the existance of the Flying Spaghetti Monster than Con did for the existance of God. Good debate, but a book (the Bible) that is open to so much interpretation should not be taken as fact or evidence of anything.
Vote Placed by bladerunner060 7 years ago
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:--Vote Checkmark3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:00 
Reasons for voting decision: I'm nulling this vote as Con seemed to agree to tie it because of Pro's computer problems--which was rather nice of him. If I'm mistaken, PM me. It was shaping up to be an interesting debate before that, though!

By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use.