The Instigator
BertrandsTeapot
Con (against)
The Contender
ChickenNosedHen
Pro (for)

Free will is not an illusion

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 8/15/2018 Category: Philosophy
Updated: 3 months ago Status: Debating Period
Viewed: 735 times Debate No: 117737
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (10)
Votes (0)

 

BertrandsTeapot

Con

One cannot be the author of their own conscious desires or thoughts. One cannot have control over their wants and needs and impulses. Any decision you try to trace back can only be traced back to some unconscious process over which you had no control.
ChickenNosedHen

Pro

If one can not be the author of there own desires or thoughts then that indicates to there being a devine being, Yes we may have our urges, Thoughts, And desires shaped by the society we live in but the decisions we make our entirly our own. And if we were impacted by society which seems the most likely and plausible option then we would not have the same crime rates and overall problems we have now.
Debate Round No. 1
BertrandsTeapot

Con

I don't think lack of free will necessitates divinity. With BoP on Pro, I'd urge them to back this up.

How is it that desires are out of our control but decisions are? Don't desires often determine decisions? They definitely do for the unconscious steps we take. If you desire cake, You may decide to eat it. If you do and say you weighed pleasure against calories, I'd ask you how you came to which one you favored, Etc. Etc.

The last sentence just seems silly, Irrelevant, And unsubstantiated.
ChickenNosedHen

Pro

If you do not think there is free will then what is there. What is determining our actions, Thoughts, And desires. And your example of the cake, The reasoning is basic psychology using dopamine, Seritonin etc. Eating a cake will increase your dopamine levels and most of our overall decisions are based on needs. Like the need for dopamine and a sense of happiness. Also should this have been an official debate calling a valid argument silly and irrelevant even when it has use would be frowned on.
Debate Round No. 2
BertrandsTeapot

Con

Our actions are determined by neurophysiological/biochemical processes. It's just physics. Synapses fire through neural pathways in the brain that lead to thoughts, Decisions, Movements, Speech, Etc.

Synapses may fire to maximize certain neurotransmitter flows but desiring them is not of your own accord. Seeking what we call "pleasure" is not a conscious motivation. See: masochism.

You can find a rigorous proof of Determinism derived from Einstein's ToR here: https://goo. Gl/Wwx8L3
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Debate Round No. 3
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Debate Round No. 4
10 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by canis 2 months ago
canis
I often wish that I had less will. And I enjoy the moments where I do not want anything. Will is a consumer.
Posted by Block19 3 months ago
Block19
I think the mistake being made by people who do not believe in free will is that they are separating their conscious and subconscious selves. They say our conscious selves make decisions based on our subconscious beliefs, But these are not two separate entities cohabiting the same body. The conscious and subconscious mind are ultimately part of the same brain and therefore the same individual. Each person makes decisions based on their life experience; whether its a simple one like what candy to buy, Or a complex one like what career you should pursue, At the end of the day you are still the one making the decision and not someone else.
Posted by Leaning 3 months ago
Leaning
For that last thing about anything. . . I mean just if some guy started crying because he wasn't able to jump off his porch and fly up into the air among the clouds, And the guy said he was crying because he wasn't free.

Wouldn't we look at him odd? Wouldn't we think he looks pretty free to do what he wants in life for the most part?

I'm not really sure how you could exist really without something acting on you. But you could hardly call something that doesn't exist free. Since something would need to 'be' for us to call it free. Or something.
Posted by Leaning 3 months ago
Leaning
A man formerly chained may have the chain removed, But he is still bound by his fleshy body and earthly limitations, But don't we still say the man is 'Free' to move his body as he wishes?

What does it matter if he can't turn his head in a 360 spin?

Do people generally think of a man as lacking freedom simply because he is not able to do anything? In a kind of deity fashion or something I suppose?
Posted by dasdaf 3 months ago
dasdaf
According to religion free will exists thus be judged for your deeds.

According to me well it is a very sad story, Cause I love sex, And I assume it is because I am a horny male human species thus I am attracted to sexy and pretty human females sexually.

As I am a naturalist I can conclude that this is the design of my hormones as much as I have inherited from a sexually active parent via reproduction.

Along with other traits, I can still tell that human deeds are a product of habits, Moods, Environment, Events, Status or inheritence. That is why it is mostly expected people of certain nature to share common patterns.

I can conclude that Free Will is an illusion but science has yet to predict Human conduct. Hopefully say by Noetic Science the computer could perform things before we have even figure out how to express it.

Imagine like surprising your girlfriend whom at times may herself not know what she wants but happy for your gift; then if a computer can output what you can't even express then indeed there is no Free Will whatsoever, But it is yet to come. . .

But what has already occurred is about aesthetics. For example, The music industry, Say Rihanna can produce a song, Then like she knows I will like e. G. The Song Oh Na Na what's my name. I am the one who listens the song and enjoy; it's like Rihanna is an engineer of my body signal to feel that sweetness of the song.

I can really claim that it is the stimuli can govern our conduct in life but yet as much as it is compatible to our nature, E. G. Males are attracted to females sexually. SO yap Free Will is but an illusion.
Posted by Leaning 3 months ago
Leaning
And sure I could have posted another comment rather than squished it, But I found that more enjoyable.
Posted by Leaning 3 months ago
Leaning
@BertrandsTeapot - Yes and no. I forget what the problem is, But free will conversations often seem to be hampered by definition or something.

I think I have free will in the immediate sense of how people think of free will (Usually choice). Do I want to eat pizza or doughnuts tonight? Sure all my life experience has already cumulated and according to the environment I am going to act in a certain fashion. . . But all that's saying is that I am powered by something. I am able to be because I interact with stimuli and have a built up experience.

People hate it I think when people say they have no free will or they have strings because of the negative wording. Same way I hate thinking about eating what would have been chicken fetus when I have scrambled eggs.

I'd rather think of free will, Causation, The environment and all that jazz as being more like being powered by a battery or energy of life. Because it is not 'literally' strings. And it doesn't 'have' to be a negative thing.

What do you call it when people work on their mind and how it reacts to things. (I don't actually know). And sure maybe they don't have a choice in choosing to choose to choose (Head hurts). But they have the first choice or two, Maybe even three or more.

A person who has negatives thoughts that overwhelm him when talking to girls can force himself to go on a hundred dates nd get used to that thinking.

A person suffering a sh*t time in life can choose to compare it to worse sh*t time in life and remind himself he's gotten past that.

A person can formulate a list of positive affirmations, Experiences, And items that he has in his life to remind himself of the positives and worth he has.

Sure the people couldn't do that without experiencing something to make them able to think that way, But milk can hardly fall over without something acting on it.

And course they could also choose to think oppositenegativeway. IthinkI'm ramblingonalosttrainofthoughtohoutofspaceifyouread
Posted by canis 3 months ago
canis
Will free of what?
Posted by BertrandsTeapot 3 months ago
BertrandsTeapot
Can they? Can you decide what thought pops into consciousness next? What were you thinking about before you opened this comment? Did you *decide* you were going to think about that?

Perhaps you can tell yourself you want to think about cats. But you can't be the one who decides that cats came to mind as opposed to dogs or aluminum siding.

Thought experiment: think of a city, Any city. This is as free of a decision as you could make. There are no ramifications, Consequences, Constraints, Etc. Did you have conscious authorship over what came to mind? If you trace back far enough and are honest with yourself, You have to admit that the seed for the thought of that city came from somewhere outside of your conscious awareness and volition.

You have no more control over the next word that pops into your head than the word that pops into mind. And before you say, "well, I'm trying to think of a synonym for happy. . Oh yeah. . Blissful" consider that you didn't consciously decide to think of a synonym for happy. You're definitely didn't decide to start your thought to yourself with the word, "well" as opposed to "so" or "um".

A puppet is free as long as he loves his strings my friend.

All that said, I still think your life will be most fulfilled by acting as if you *do* have free will. I am not a fatalist.
Posted by Leaning 3 months ago
Leaning
Mmmaayybe. But Even if people don't have a choice in making a choice, They still have a choice I'm thinking.
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