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Gender is biological not social

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 7/27/2018 Category: Health
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,754 times Debate No: 116876
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (6)
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It is a fact that gender is a biological fact and not a social construct. I believe that it is simply incorrect, And pointless to distinguish sex from gender and that it would be to difficult to implement.


This debate entirely boils down to semantics. While many stray from such debates, I'd rather present the following: (1) the fact that, In academia especially, Gender and sex are regarded as distinct concepts, Particularly in sociology, And (2) the fact that this distinction is useful. However, First, I must point out some miscellaneous contentions with my interlocutor's arguments.

In my interlocutor's first sentence, They assert that gender is a "biological fact" and therefore cannot be a social construct. If it is "a fact", I would like see some evidence backing that up. Burden of proof, Of course, Belongs with the person making a claim - this is an issue I have with my interlocutor"s whole argument; lack of proof. Examples like a single person using them interchangeably in the 16th century, For example, Isn"t satisfactory nor is its misuse in common parlance. Only starting in the mid-20th century, With people such as Judith Butler, Simone de Beauvoir and so on, Was the distinction made. We are still in the process of the academic use of these terms being extend to common usage of this distinction and failure to appreciate this would be ignoring the fact that language regularly evolves.

Now, To the first point I'd like to make: in academia and similar fields, The distinction between sex and gender is commonly drawn. Even when ignoring feminists such as the ones aforementioned and many more since, We see that within our language - that is, In terms of its construction, Etymology, Etc. - this distinction between sex and gender being evident. In terms such as "transsexual", Which has itself evolved from its original meaning, We can see this explicitly talks about sex distinctly to gender (as the term transgender exists and they describe different things). Moving on to examples of the use of this distinction in academia and elsewhere, I'll leave a plethora of links at the end of this argument[1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7] (including from the American Psychiatric Association and The Lancet). I don't expect my interlocutor to refute all of the links - it"d be far too much content for one post and I don't even agree with everything they say - but the fact is clear: the distinction is being made.

The next thing I'd talk about is why the distinction is necessary, Particularly in academia but also common parlance. The signified of the terms describe distinct phenomena: (1, Sex) the biological - in no particular order, Genitals, Gonads, Hormones, Chromosomes and secondary sex characteristics - and (2, Gender) the social - that is, The socially constructed categories of masculinity and femininity (as well as non-binary genders, But that"s beyond the scope of this debate and would lead only to tangents). These two things are evidently distinct. For example, It is commonly known that in the past - as close as the 19th century - pink was considered masculine whereas today it is considered feminine. Likewise for blue but vice versa[10, 14]. Another example would be that high heels were originally considered masculine as they were used exclusively in the cavalry, Something at the time considered to be only masculine. Such use of high heels originated in Persia but later spread to Europe especially[11]. Yet another example we see is differences between concepts of masculinity and femininity across different cultures (for example, Two-spirit people in certain cultures of the indigenous people of the Americas[12, 13]). These examples show the fluidity of such a social construct. Did human biology alter to make this so? Is the human biology of sex different for each culture? While there have been some, A minority, Who claim that there is a biological cause for gendered colours, This claim is highly contested (what"s more likely is it being a result of events such as the advent of mass-marketing, The appropriation of traditionally masculine clothing into the feminine counterpart, Etc. )[14, 15, 16].

Given that there is a distinction between the two phenomena, An attempt to label them distinctly arose. In the 1950s and 60s, Academics began introducing the concept of gender to be distinct to that of sex. It caught on, But the process is ongoing. In fact, Prior to John Money introducing this use of gender in 1955, The term "gender" was incredibly uncommon outside of its use in grammatical categorisation (e. G. The French "piscine" is feminine)[8, 9]. My interlocutor asserts that it would be "pointless to distinguish sex from gender". However, We can see that this distinction always existed, Just in a different, But equally valid, Way (sex as earlier defined and gender being purely grammatical, Now with the added definition too). Therefore, There is a need for it due to the distinction that exists between the two. The labeling of this distinction as "pointless" is entirely false - there is a need for both terms as they signify separate phenomena.

Rejecting the fact that the signified of the terms "gender" and "sex" as used in academia are distinct concepts is rejection of science. Rejecting the fact that, Save in common parlance ignorant of the science and history of the terms, Sex and gender have never been synonymous is rejection of history. To continue with your argument would be nothing more than rejection of truth and the prioritisation of your political agenda and feelings over it.

~ Sources ~
1. Https://www. Psychiatry. Org/patients-families/gender-dysphoria/what-is-gender-dysphoria
2. Https://www. Thelancet. Com/pdfs/journals/lanpsy/PIIS2215-0366(16)30310-8. Pdf (link doesn't format properly on DDO, Sorry)
3. Http://www. Personal. Psu. Edu/bfr3/blogs/applied_social_psychology/2011/10/the-social-construction-of-gender. Html
4. Https://philpapers. Org/archive/SVETMO-3
5. Https://www. Medicalnewstoday. Com/articles/232363. Php
6. Https://www. Diffen. Com/difference/Gender_vs_Sex
7. Http://sci-hub. Tw/https://www. Tandfonline. Com/doi/abs/10. 1300/J485v08n04_05
8. Http://people. Virginia. Edu/~ser6f/udry. Pdf
9. Https://web. Archive. Org/web/20120615160110/http://www. Oeb. Harvard. Edu/faculty/haig/Publications_files/04InexorableRise. Pdf
10. Https://www. Smithsonianmag. Com/arts-culture/when-did-girls-start-wearing-pink-1370097/
11. Https://www. Bbc. Com/news/magazine-21151350
12. Http://www. Ncai. Org/policy-research-center/initiatives/Pruden-Edmo_TwoSpiritPeople. Pdf
13. Https://masculinisation. Files. Wordpress. Com/2015/05/two-spirits-nadleeh-and-lgbtq2-navajo-gaze-by-gabriel-s-estrada. Pdf
14. Http://sci-hub. Tw/https://link. Springer. Com/article/10. 1007/s00381-007-0559-3
15. Http://sites. Psu. Edu/kovacikpassionblog/2015/10/29/why-is-pink-for-girls/
16. Https://priceonomics. Com/is-pink--girly-a-myth/
Debate Round No. 1


I'm extremely sorry if I was unclear about my statement that it is "pointless to distinguish sex from gender. " What I intended that phrase to mean was that by universally making it know that sex and gender are different and shouldn't be used interchangeably, The consequences will not necessarily be at all positive. Allow me to elaborate:

I do agree that "gender" has been used in terms of "masculinity and "femininity" but the point I would like to make is that it should not be, And instead be synonymous with the "sex. " I do understand that gender was used in terms of gender stereotypes, And I don't believe that things like colour preferences are biological. What I don't agree on is the need for the term "gender" at all if I think just refers to terms of masculinity and feminity (and non-binary. ) What need is there in society for a word that just refers to that? If gender was used in terms of masculinity and femininity as it may have been originally intended to be used, Than we would be calling effeminate males (by sex) females (by gender. ) This in itself can be extremely negative for their own mental health. All of this also begs to ask the question, Where is gender needed and where is sex needed?

Is gender something you refer to a person as? Because if so than every person would be judged on their levels of masculinity and femininity, Reinforcing gender (or sexual? ) stereotypes. These stereotypes are the same stereotypes that lead to things like mental illness and suicide. That rates of transgender individuals are the highest in the world. These are the people who changed their gender, Because they weren't told "you don't have to be athletic to be a male" and the weren't told "you don't have to where dresses to be female. " These are the people that felt that their inability to fit into gender stereotypes of their natural sex meant that they shouldn't identify as such.

I call myself a male, And I wish others to call me a male, Because I am biologically a male. According to the concept of "gender" I wouldn't be so. So do I get people to call me my biological sex or my gender? Is it either? If so, We can't have a working system that doesn't apply to everyone. In medical documents I assume it would be the sex. On legal documents I assume everyone except for non-binary or trans individuals would put their sex. Does this word "gender" have any actual practical use in today's modern day society?

I do believe that gender stereotypes should be abolished, And that a man can wear a dress and be effeminate and they shouldn't be bullied for it. The same way I believe that a woman should be able to have short hair, Wear shorts and a shirt shouldn't be bullied for that either but having a system based on the "gender" you defined wouldn't stop or slow bullying of people who are different, But instead increase such behaviour. If everyone was judged on how masculine and feminine they were people would be bullied at much higher rates. This would, Of course, Lead to a rise of suicide.

Instead of defining gender in social terms, It should be purely biological. That way people can be who they are without being bullied into changing, Then being bullied for changing. This would surely reduce suicide rates, Depression rates, And the like. We should stop separating gender from sex, And instead work on abolishing gender stereotypes and helping those who don't fit into them feel just as much a male or female as others of their sex/gender.


My interlocutor fails to argue both the topic and my points throughout their entire argument. Instead of arguing that gender is biological, Which is their task as pro, They - for the most part - argue that what is signified by the term gender is detrimental. I remind my interlocutor that they should be arguing that "gender is biological not social".

To truly understand where the majority of my interlocutor"s arguments fall short, Excluding their irrelevance to the topic, One must understand what being transgender means. GLAAD says the following: "Transgender is a term used to describe people whose gender identity differs from the sex they were assigned at birth. Gender identity is a person's internal, Personal sense of being a man or a woman"[17] (typically this is identified by the exhibition of gender dysphoria[18, 19, 20]).

This matters for a number of reasons. Firstly, My interlocutor repeatedly says that people are "bullied into changing" (as with all their claims, It is unsourced). However, It is in fact incredibly difficult to get hormones and other more minor "treatments", At least in the UK and the US, Let alone surgery[28, 29]. Furthermore, There is no evidence of any "bullying" of people going on to "change", There"s certainly no widespread bullying of this type. Being "effeminate" in one or more ways is not the same as being transgender[18, 19], Ergo my interlocutor is making a false equivalence.

This understanding is necessary because, Secondly, Gender dysphoria explains part of the reason why transgender people have higher rates of mental illness. Gender dysphoria has been shown to cause many negative effects on the sufferer"s mental health, Such as increased rates of depression, Anxiety and suicide[21, 22]. However, This isn"t the only cause of higher rates of mental health issues in trans people. The other major reason is because trans people face extraordinarily high rates of discrimination and violence, Which in turn cause mental health issues[23, 24, 25, 26]. The issue of more prevalent mental health problems in transgender people isn"t caused by transgender people reinforcing gender stereotypes which negatively affect them - rather, Society as a whole, The members thereof and the effects both have on trans people do (to suggest the former would be nothing more than thinly veiled victim blaming and ignoring of the abuse transgender people have to suffer, Which permits it to occur).

Even if my interloculator doesn"t agree with anything I just argued, Their conclusion is still flawed. Their main and most relevant argument can be condensed to the following:
P1: Transgender people reinforce gender stereotypes.
P2: Gender stereotypes have negative effects.
C: We shouldn"t use the term "gender" distinctly to the term "sex".
This conclusion doesn"t follow, Even if P1 is true. The term gender"s right to be used has nothing to do with my interloculator"s first premise. The term existing doesn"t cause the existence of transgender individuals. Furthermore, While the terms gender and racism aren"t similar in terms of their definitions, They still describe social phenomena. If one opposes racism, It is very difficult, If not impossible, To articulate said opposition without words such as "racism". Similarly, If one opposes gender, Something equally verifiable to exist, Then one cannot easily articulate one"s opposition to gender (signified) without the term gender (signifier). That isn"t to say the signified of racism and gender are equivalent, To clarify. This is just one "practical use" the term has.

Speaking of practical uses, My interlocutor misstep here, Too. Yes, In medical documents, Sex is often used. The reason is obvious: medical practitioners, For the most part, Treat conditions that are to do with one"s physical body, Specifically conditions which aren"t directly related to the social or psychological (unless one is talking to a specialist in said areas). As such, Sex is more useful (sometimes both are requested, However). In legal documents, However, Gender is actually used instead (provided some steps have been taken). In the UK, For example - where I live, Hence my familiarity with the process - one requires a Gender Recognition Certificate for one"s "gender to be legally recognised"[27]. In the US and other countries, Similar processes exist under different names and procedures depending on the state or country. There is, However, One main use of the term: talking about a verifiable and observable social construct. While especially useful in sociology and psychology, It is also useful in, As mentioned earlier, Criticism of the social construct of gender as well as in day-to-day life.

However, The majority of my argument (the first few paragraphs after the introduction especially) isn"t particularly relevant to the topic, I"m merely contending my interlocutor"s points (something I feel is fair to do). As far as this debate goes, They have already conceded that they "agree that "gender" has been used in terms of "masculinity["] and "femininity"". Therefore, Gender signifies the social, Not biological; therefore, The sentence "Gender is biological not social" is false.

~ Sources ~
17. Https://www. Glaad. Org/transgender/transfaq
18. Https://www. Nhs. Uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/
19. Https://www. Psychiatry. Org/patients-families/gender-dysphoria/what-is-gender-dysphoria
20. Https://www. Theravive. Com/therapedia/gender-dysphoria-dsm--5-302. 85-(f64. 9)
21. Https://www. Nhs. Uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/symptoms/
22. Https://www. Mentalhealth. Org. Nz/get-help/a-z/resource/53/gender-dysphoria
23. Https://sci-hub. Tw/https%3A%2F%2Fwww. Tandfonline. Com%2Fdoi%2Fabs%2F10. 1300%2FJ082v51n03_04 (excuse the outdated terminology)
24. Https://www. Theguardian. Com/society/2015/may/20/nhs-treats-transgender-people-as-second-class-citizens-says-watchdog
25. Http://citeseerx. Ist. Psu. Edu/viewdoc/download? Doi=10. 1. 1. 475. 2541&rep=rep1&type=pdf
26. Https://www. Ncbi. Nlm. Nih. Gov/pmc/articles/PMC4202964/pdf/AJPH. 2013. 301545. Pdf
27. Https://www. Gov. Uk/apply-gender-recognition-certificate
28. Http://thetransgendercenter. Com/index. Php/prerequisites-2. Html
29. Http://www. Healthcommunities. Com/transgender-health/hormone-therapy. Shtml
Debate Round No. 2


In this round, When I'm referring to "gender" I will be referring to the "internal sense of being male or female" and when I refer to "sex" I'll be reffering to the gentialia, Chromosomes and hormones. My opponent has made it clear that these two should be separated, So for the purposes of my argument I will. Whilst I agree that your gender isn't necessarily your sex, I still would like to make the case that gender is still based in your biology.

Consider two children. They are raised as their sex, An exposed to societies gender roles. If they were now removed from such an environment into, Say, A gender neutral society, They would still identify with the same gender. The case I'm making is that their own gender identity is now hard wired into their biology. Whilst this change in biology may be because of society, The reason it is now their self identified "gender identity" is because society itself changed their biology. The case can also be made that those turnout to be "transgender" had a possible gene that caused a predisposition towards a change in gender. This "predisposition" of course, Would be considered as "biological. " Therefore a persons gender identity is actually hard wired into a persons biology. Let me elaborate.

In the 1979 journal article by RK Unger called "Towards a redefinition of sex and gender"[2] she goes to talk about the lateralisation of the brain. She states that females earlier on in life have a much different lateralisation of the brain than later on, And how, Because of the toys give no to the females, Their actual biology is affected. Yes, At some point in time society affect the human person, But later in life our self formed gender identity is hard wired into our very own biology. (I'm sorry I can't reference the article here, Because it must be paid for and wouldn't be able to be read, But it can be found if you search "RK Unger Toward a redifiniton of sex and gender. ")

In the terms of transgender people however, It seems to be the case that their gender identity is "hardwired" into their own brain [3], The same way that males and females brains [4] are lateralised in different ways. [1] So the common phrase of "male brain in a female body" may, In fact be true. Although society may haves some influence in the developement of gender identity, The actual idea of a persons own gender identity is a biological fact. If you wee to place a biological male, With a male gender identity, Into a place where gender is neutral that male would still consider itself a male. Even if society changes, Those who have a gendered identity will not change such identity as it I should now a part of their own biology. Your gender is biological because of the lateralisation of your own brain, Whilst this can be cause by society, We would still have lateralised brains even if society didn't exist. Society not only had influences on our brain, But also our very own genetics, Some theories say that there may be a "gene" passed through people as well to cause transgenderism, But that isn't too researched [5].

You can clearly see that whilst society may influence our biology, Once gender is hardwired into our own brain there is no change you can make to society to change it. Therefore, Gender is not societal, But biological.

1. Neporent, L. (2015). Gender Identity is Biological, Study Says. [online] ABC News. Available at: https://abcnews. Go. Com/Health/gender-identity-biological-study/story? Id=29335854 [Accessed 5 Aug. 2018].

2. Trotter, D. (2017). Born this way? Researchers explore the science of gender identity. [online] U. S. Available at: https://www. Reuters. Com/article/us-usa-lgbt-biology/born-this-way-researchers-explore-the-science-of-gender-identity-idUSKBN1AJ0F0 [Accessed 5 Aug. 2018].

3. Unger, R. (1979). Towards the redefinition of sex and gender. American Psychologist, [online] 34(11), Pp. 1085-1094. Available at: http://psycnet. Apa. Org/record/1980-05376-001 [Accessed 5 Aug. 2018].

4. Khazan, O. (2013). Male and Female Brains Really Are Built Differently. [online] The Atlantic. Available at: https://www. Theatlantic. Com/health/archive/2013/12/male-and-female-brains-really-are-built-differently/281962/ [Accessed 5 Aug. 2018].

5. Goldman, J. (2014). How human culture influences our genetics. [online] Bbc. Com. Available at: http://www. Bbc. Com/future/story/20140410-can-we-drive-our-own-evolution [Accessed 5 Aug. 2018].


My interlocutor seems to have a few arguments: (1) people would retain their gender identity if placed into a society without gender, (2) laterality shows that gender has a biological basis and (3) the possibility of a genetic basis for transgender people. To be fair to my interlocutor, They admit that the third is under-researched. I will also argue miscellaneous contentions.

My interlocutor proposes a thought experiment: if children are "raised as their sex" and then suddenly taken into some genderless society, They would retain their gender identity. This supposedly shows that gender is biological. However, There are flaws with this line of reasoning. At what age are they taken into this hypothetical society? Children typically develop a sense of gender identity and an understanding of gender (insofar as they know what things like masculinity and femininity are) before the age of 5[30, 31, 32]. Given that children understand gender and have a gender identity by this point, Children taken to this hypothetical society wouldn"t retain their gender identity as there isn"t one to retain. If they are taken after they have developed their sense of gender identity, Then this still doesn"t show that gender is biological. Is learnt knowledge biological? Following your reasoning, If one is taken to a society where the knowledge is unknown, It is.

Why is this reasoning flawed? It presupposes that the only way of storing something (in these cases, Knowledge and gender identity) is biological (it isn"t[33, 39]). Gender identity, As you essentially admit (see coming paragraphs), Is caused by the social and then reflected by the psychological. The topic is "Gender is biological not social". Even if you"d consider psychology to be a field of biology, There is still an essential social element[2, 12, 13, 32]. Furthermore, The topic is regarding gender, Not gender identity. In arguing that gender identity is biological, You fail to argue that gender is biological. The two are not the same[40, 41, 42, 43].

The next point is regarding laterality. Again, They talk about gender identity, Not gender itself. My argument here is the same as my prior one: they developed their gender identity, Before the age of 5, And then the psychological began to reflect that. This is far more likely socialised neuroplasticity (other examples of which exist[44]). Furthermore, I"d point out that gender identity still exists between the period between them first gaining a gender identity to their brains to begin reflecting this. This shows that one"s psychology, One"s biology, And the traits thereof aren"t essential to gender identity, Regardless of if there are any. Therefore, Gender isn"t biological as it exists prior to the development of these gendered correlations; biological traits aren"t essential traits of gender identity whereas the social is.

My interlocutor asserts that there is possible a genetic element to gender identity. Gender cannot be caused by gender as there are many identical twins where only one is transgender and the other isn"t[examples: 35, 36, 37]. "If we look [. . . ] at gay males, There is a higher concordance of homosexuality in twins and a higher prevalence of homosexuality in maternal male relatives, Such as uncles and cousins [. . . ]. These correlations have not been found with [transgender] people. "[38] This highly indicates that there is no genetic basis for gender. Furthermore, As you say, It "isn't too researched" - it"s also highly contested. My interlocutor cites a source, Their fifth. It doesn"t directly speak about gender or sex whatsoever. What it does talk about is, However, That culture can alter genetics over time. This is irrelevant - genetics changing over time, Regardless of the cause, Doesn"t show a biological basis for gender.

My interlocutor claims that "[y]our gender is biological because of the lateralisation of your own brain, Whilst this can be cause[d] by society, We would still have lateralised brains even if society didn't exist. " This is misleading. As my interlocutor argues, Their third source states that lateralisation of the brain is socialised. If a child was taken from its parents from birth and society had no influence over it, This wouldn"t happen. Their third source affirms my claims.

Their conclusion says that once one learns about gender and realises their gender identity, It doesn"t change, Showing that "gender is not societal, But biological". However, This conclusion is flawed as it misunderstands what a social construct is. Gender works as a social construct in the following way:
a. Everyone has an idea of what gender is in a culture (discrepancies may exist, Only a general idea is needed in order to be uniform).
b. The aforementioned concepts are passed down from the parents (socially) and otherwise socialised into the child (e. G. By mass marketing, Toys, Etc. ).
These two things show how gender as a social construct works and continues to work throughout the generations. Just because one"s gender identity doesn"t change (genderfluid people exist, But their gender identity is genderfluid), Doesn"t mean gender is biological. If you brought up a child isolated from society in every possible way, They would have no concept of gender (because gender is social, As earlier established).

My interlocutor seems to only state that gender identity is biological. I have shown that this is untrue - mostly their issues come from a misunderstanding of what a social construct is. This is, Again, Irrelevant. The topic is "Gender is biological not social", Not "Gender identity is biological". My interlocutor argues for only the latter in their last argument. Furthermore, They seem to concede that gender is social. As I said uncontested in my first argument"s first sentence, "[t]his debate entirely boils down to semantics". In their third argument"s introduction, They state the following: "[i]n this round, When I'm referring to "gender" I will be referring to the "internal sense of being male or female" and when I refer to "sex" I'll be [referring] to the [genitalia], Chromosomes and hormones. My opponent has made it clear that these two should be separated". Furthermore, In their second argument, They say they "agree that "gender" has been used in terms of "masculinity["] and "femininity"". In this regard, They seem to concede that I am correct: gender is social.

~ Sources ~
30. Https://www. Healthychildren. Org/English/ages-stages/gradeschool/Pages/Gender-Identity-and-Gender-Confusion-In-Children. Aspx
31. Http://www. Iflscience. Com/brain/when-do-children-develop-their-gender-identity/
32. Http://gozips. Uakron. Edu/~susan8/PARINF. HTM
33. Https://www. Psychologytoday. Com/us/blog/hormones-and-the-brain/201608/gender-identity-is-in-the-brain-what-does-tell-us
34. Http://sci-hub. Tw/http://psycnet. Apa. Org/doiLanding? Doi=10. 1037%2F0003-066X. 34. 11. 1085
35. Https://abcnews. Go. Com/Health/identical-twin-boys-transgender-brother-sister/story? Id=15142268
36. Https://people. Com/books/twin-transgender-story-jonas-and-nicole-maines-told-in-book-becoming-nicole/
37. Https://www. Yahoo. Com/news/when-one-identical-twin-comes-1283944279269430. Html
38. Http://sci-hub. Tw/https://www. Tandfonline. Com/doi/abs/10. 1080/19359700903165290
39. Https://www. Nationalgeographic. Com/science/health-and-human-body/human-body/brain/
40. Https://www. Apa. Org/topics/lgbt/transgender. Aspx
41. Https://www. Hrc. Org/resources/sexual-orientation-and-gender-identity-terminology-and-definitions
42. Https://tgeu. Org/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Malta_GIGESC_trans_law_2015. Pdf
43. Http://eige. Europa. Eu/rdc/thesaurus/terms/1179
44. Https://www. Ncbi. Nlm. Nih. Gov/pmc/articles/PMC3491815/
Debate Round No. 3
6 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 6 records.
Posted by br3adina7or 3 years ago
No one voted, But we both did well! Good debate, Friend. (Although I think I did better smh :P)
Posted by budding_demonologist 3 years ago
Oh. . . There are spaces. . . How come I never noticed this. . What's with debate dot org's formatting. .
Posted by br3adina7or 3 years ago
Reminder that you need to post your argument at some point in the next day or so. (Dunno if you're busy or just taking your time, Just thought I'd give a reminder)
Posted by br3adina7or 3 years ago
Wow, Just realised none of the sources formatted correctly lmao. They work, But you have to get rid of the random spaces. Sorry! (Thanks DDO, Smh)
Posted by br3adina7or 3 years ago
Re: "(link doesn't format properly on DDO, Sorry)" in the sources, For some reason in the preview it set hyperlinks but doesn't in the actual post. Ignore that note!
Posted by Im_Intelligent 3 years ago
Damn Right
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