The Instigator
unicorngod
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
omar2345
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

Gender is separate of sex and there are more than two genders

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Post Voting Period
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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 11/29/2018 Category: Politics
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,139 times Debate No: 119226
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (20)
Votes (0)

 

unicorngod

Pro

I know this is technically two different topics but I am arguing that gender is separate of sex and also, Whether or not it is, There are scientifically far more than two sexes as well as far more than two genders.

The rounds will be:
1. Acceptance and opening statement
2. 1 constructive argument
3. Rebuttals
omar2345

Con

Happy to debate this.

Require you in the next round to define:
Sex
Gender

Also evidence that prove there are more sexes and genders then 2.

And of course your arguments.

I'll give my argument in the next round too.
Debate Round No. 1
unicorngod

Pro

Hello and thanks for accepting this round.

To start off, I define sex as: "Sex is a biological characteristic based on chromosomal factors and sex characteristics such as genitals" You can find this definition in my works cited at the bottom.
The way most people define sex as you can find directly searching "Sex definition" Is somewhat correct in the sense that there are two main sexes (male and female) since the other sexes are mixtures of male and female, But defining sex as seen above is a much more accurate way to describe.

The definition of gender: "Gender is a social construct and refers to how an individual navigates the world through identity (pronouns, Names, Etc. ), How we dress and our mannerisms (feminine, Masculine), And how we see ourselves. "
Yes it's true that not all females or not all males act the same. But people truly do experience gender dysphoria, A medical condition, So actions and behaviors do play a role in gender.

I say all this to set up the argument for why there are more than two genders. But first I will explain why sex and gender are separate.

Experts have known for a while that anatomy does not determine gender. The useless notion of this being false was simply, Medically, Incorrect. Many people believe being transgender is something that is solely hormonal. This is not true. Many biological factors do actually play a role in being transgender, And being trans is something that can be detected at birth. Brain scans for people who claim to have gender dysphoria have been tested. An individual with gender dysphoria shows brain structure and neurological patterns similar to the gender/sex they claim to be. Sex may be determined by genitalia, But gender dysphoria is a medical condition that proves gender is separate and that many people don't identify with their sex.

Moving on to there being more than two sexes/genders, I don't make these separate because it's well documented that there are far more than two sexes and though it may not have been shown to be true quite yet that people can biologically identify as someone that's not strictly male or female (if they were not born that way), That's besides the point. The point is that there's far more than two genders/sexes so far that is shown to be true to apply to cisgender people. "The idea of only two genders is a modern-day creation" I'm sure you know that 1. 7% of the world is born intersex. If you know this, Then this basically means there are many more sexes and genders. There are many other clear variations (XXX, XXY, XYY, XXYY) and slighter variations of the X and Y combinations are a little more common than most people know. I did define sex to include chromosomal factors which is the only fair and scientific way to define sex. Without a clear distinction between sex and gender, The validation of millions of transgender people will go unnoticed. Gender Dysphoria is no joke. So many people suffer from it. You can't change your mind but you can change your appearance.

In conclusion, Scientists have known for DECADES that gender is separate from sex and also the chromosomal variations prove that there are more than two genders/sexes.

Evidence:
"Anatomy Does Not Determine Gender, Experts Say" (NY Times)

"Transgender brain scans promised as study shows structural differences in people with gender dysphoria" (The Telegraph)

IT"S NOT IN YOUR HEAD: THE HISTORY AND SCIENCE OF GENDER FLUIDITY (Spectrum South)
omar2345

Con

Gender: The state of being male or female
Sex: either of the two main categories (male and female) into which humans and most other living things are divided on the basis of their reproductive functions

Gender and sex are not separate. Reason is sex is the biological identity of an individual and gender is the way we perceive sexes to be. These systems that are different between male and female are required in order to tailor ideas, Actions to the sexes. Males have more testosterone then women on average. We can deduce from this is that men will be more hairy and have increased muscle mass. Society then would say men would do all the carrying. Females have more estrogen then. This means they are more likely to keep their hair on their head then men. Society would then comply to this by women shaving their head for charities. One such example is Katy Perry. Society created male and female to differentiate between the two. Sex has given gender reasons to create these structures which help find out more what a person is on the basis of asking them or first impression. Without it pronouns would be required to change given to the persons liking. We created gender systems so that we can deal with more important issues. Without it the hiring process will take longer. Doctors if pressured into changing science to suit the persons gender would find it difficult to speak to the individual due to the requirements people who say they are not male or female. Pronouns would be required to change which does not help get straight to the issue which is why the person went to the doctor not because the person wanted to see if the doctor would correctly address them with their specific pro-nouns.

There are only 2 genders. Reason is either you are born with a vagina or a penis. If lets say you are born intersex. After some time has past about 18 years you will be given the decision to remove one of the organs. If lets say intersex people do not have problems with their genitals then the answer would be the genital that they do which defines their gender. The reason is estrogen is more common with women and testosterone is more common in men. How do we find out? By their genitalia. If there is more then 2 genders then multiple research would be required to find out every different type of intersex and categorise them accordingly. This does not help scientists go into more important issues instead they are spending their time categorising every single different type of intersex person. This is not helpful in making societal norms and if there are more then 2 genders then society will have to adapt. This would require legal documents like a passport to be changed which requires time and money which could've been better put into something more important not one someone's flippant gender. I can't say I identify as an attack helicopter since I do not have the attributes like one. The more we open the door to this more of a problem it gets defining what is. No one is a furry since they do not exist apart from the Internet.






Debate Round No. 2
unicorngod

Pro

I want to start off by saying you've asked me to provide a definition of gender and a definition of sex. I provided a legitimate definition of both and provided where I got the definitions. You continue on by providing two unsupported definitions that defy the scientific evidence I have provided. It doesn't matter what's more "convenient" for society. And society didn't "create" male and female. I do agree that some of the pronouns that people create are stupid, But is it really that hard to call someone they/them if that's who they are? They can't help it. If you get their pronouns wrong on accident that's fine but it's not that hard.

I completely disagree with you saying "Doctors if pressure into changing science to suit the person's gender" You didn't exactly get entire premise of my argument. No one's CHANGING science. Scientists have know for decades that sex and gender are separated. Your biggest impact is the inconvenience of calling people by their correct pronouns. Some people can get pretty heated over the fact that someone called them by the wrong pronouns, But it's not like transgender individuals or intersex individuals like to experiment to see who calls them by the wrong pronouns, That ridiculous. Identifying as intersex, Being born intersex, Isn't an opinion. It's a fact that a lot of people don't realize. Even though only 1. 7% of the world is born intersex, That's still millions and millions of people. Going back to the separation of gender and sex. Like I said, It doesn't matter what's convenient for society, Based on the legitimate definition I gave you, There are many chromosomal variations. There are people born intersex. You can't put them in a category of male or female no matter HOW much you want to. It defines scientific knowledge.

Going onto the "there are only 2 genders" argument, I've stated that it's unfair and not possible to define someone's sex by their genitalia. The definition of sex includes chromosomal factors. If everyone were either male or female, They would have all the characteristics of a female or all of them for a male. But that's not the case, Based on all the chromosome variations that I provided in my first argument. Moving onto the intersex argument, If you are born ANY sex, No matter what it is, You cannot change your chromosome structure. I am not really sure why you went on to talk about removing an organ if you are intersex because a lot of people who are intersex do actually identify with their sex (cisgender) That's why there's people who are gender fluid. Moving on to people categorising every kind of intersex, I already provided some chromosome structures. It's impossible to categorize every single one because there's slight variations in all these different chromosome structures. It's not like there has to be names for all of these. They're simply, Intersex. I'm from Washington DC and they're on the right track. On driver's licenses, They've started to put male, Female, Or X. As long as someone know what pronouns they want to go by, They are gender fluid. Since we can't categorize all of them, There are three main genders we name: Male, Female, And intersex. But that doesn't mean there are more genders. We just tend to generalize all the other genders under intersex. I knew you were going to bring up identifying as whatever you would like, But being transgender isn't a choice and I provided evidence stating having gender dysphoria is a medical condition and there's proof that it exists

I apologize if I made any errors in my argument I don't have time to go over it.
omar2345

Con

Forfeit reason in the comments and similar reasons here.

Basically wrote 5-6, 000 words went through and now I am getting a message saying they want me to post my argument again.

I don't want to write all that again. Next time I will add it to a word document before submitting it.




Debate Round No. 3
20 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by omar2345 3 years ago
omar2345
@unicorngod

Missed a point

"As long as people aren't getting harmed for which bathroom they choose to use, It really doesn't matter what bathrooms we have. "
To me I think it is rare that transgender get abused. I think the suicides are based on realising transitioning was a mistake and know they cannot take back what they have lost. If it is about not finding partners. I am not going to go with someone who I do not prefer. I do not go out with men because I don't like them. I don't transgender women because I don't like them either. They should have been aware of the unlikelihood of someone who can accept their transition. It is not my fault society cannot accept them as men and women when they cannot fulfill being part of the offspring process.

Just a thought don't take it personally.
Posted by omar2345 3 years ago
omar2345
@unicorngod

"Suicide rates amongst transgender people"
Still higher then Jews in the holocaust. If look at suicide rates they hardly happen in 3rd world countries suicide rarely happens. It seems to look like a luxury of westerners who occupy the higher end of societies.

"transitioning to be safe. "
Tell me what kind of abuse it is and who it is perpetrated by. More then likely it is fear fearmongering dug up by left leaning new sources saying that the right want to take away trans panic and want to commit suicide. If abuse does happen it would most likely be religiously motivated not politically.
Posted by omar2345 3 years ago
omar2345
@unicorngod

"Having the right to abortion is something that is threatened and people could potentially lose. "
No matter how many theists they are it won't go away. The left have the numbers and the right somewhat agree which is enough to win a vote if abortion was under threat. In reality this is not a problem. People can say it is immoral but when it comes to banning it then the numbers are on pro abortion.

"The rights for transgender people are something they can potentially lose as well. "
No they are not. Transgender people still have human rights.

"Like not being able to join the military. "
It is not a right to join the military you have to earn it. You do understand the reason right? They are not emotionally fit and transgender men are not capable as men at birth in the extremes. Women are less likely to join due to their lack of physicality. Doesn't mean they can't if they try only states they have to climb a hill which is fair since they are going to do the same things as men.

"What I meant by gender fluidity is intersex people and people who don't identify as male or female. "
These people require help. You cannot be anything other then male or female. If you think you are a wolf you are not. Simple as. We should not condone stupidity when they have not logically thought what they are saying through.

"like Trump were to define gender out of existence"
He won't even if CNN might say otherwise.

"legally be discriminated against since they don't identify with their sex. "
Is it fair? That should be the question. What if the person wants to be a female model and still has a penis. That is justified discrimination since how are you supposed to present clothes on the catwalk with a penis when the clothes are meant to be worn by women who have vaginas.
Posted by unicorngod 3 years ago
unicorngod
@omar2345
oh my god okay. Having the right to abortion is something that is threatened and people could potentially lose. The rights for transgender people are something they can potentially lose as well. Some rights have already been taken away from transgender people. Like not being able to join the military.

Half of my entire debate argument is saying that gender is not determined by genitalia. And I also said it's not scientifically proven or disproven if gender fluidity exists. What I meant by gender fluidity is intersex people and people who don't identify as male or female.

What I meant by discrimination is that if people like Trump were to define gender out of existence, People who are transgender can legally be discriminated against since they don't identify with their sex. If we were to define gender by sex that means transgender people have no choice but to identify as their sex. People who are trans don't want to be trans. It's hard and it's not a choice. But not being able to identify as their gender, It's terrible. Suicide rates amongst transgender people went down when gender reconstruction surgery was introduced.

The point of gender neutral bathrooms is for people who are transitioning to be safe. If most of the time they aren't discriminated against in the restroom they choose it's fine. Honestly, As long as people aren't getting harmed for which bathroom they choose to use, It really doesn't matter what bathrooms we have.
Posted by omar2345 3 years ago
omar2345
@unicorngod

"Recognizing the validation of these people makes a big difference and helps a whole lot of people. "
They are recognised. That is not the problem. It is what they are asking for. They do not want to be equal they want to be different. They already have the same rights as everyone else but they want more.

"validation of these gender fluid"
I cannot say I have a vagina and then say I have a penis after couple of minutes. If I haven't gone through a procedure that is a lie. Gender fluid also agree that for them to be fluid it would require there to be 2 genders for them to be fluid. Male and Female. I never hear a fluid person say I am now asexual.

"Discrimination is legal against them"
Discrimination is still discrimination whether it be about there gender. The thing is adding more genders is not necessary for them to live a happy life. If I was gender fluid I would fill in my legal documents as the gender I was assigned during birth and socially be gender fluid but they want to make it official for some reason as if they want appreciation. I don't require some sort of extra boxes for gender to be part of society. Even though I am apart of the two known genders my point still stands if they want to be part of society they would file legal documents as the gender they were assigned at birth and socially be whatever they want but they want more which I do not see the point of.

"neutral bathrooms that are private, Not public with multiple stalls. "
It wouldn't work in public and might work in private. The only way it can work in private is if people can agree not to use the bathrooms apart from what it was intended. It is difficult to mandate that and stating a document for people to sign is not going to help them come around to the idea of neutral bathrooms when the document has many rules if there is one.
Posted by unicorngod 3 years ago
unicorngod
@omar2345

What I mean is we're asking for the validation of these gender fluid people because without it, Discrimination is legal against them. My school has gender neutral bathrooms that are private, Not public with multiple stalls. Recognizing the validation of these people makes a big difference and helps a whole lot of people.
Posted by omar2345 3 years ago
omar2345
@unicorngod

"option on legal documents is perfectly fine. "
That is not what the community is asking for. They are asking for legal documentation, More facilities and allowing trans male and trans female to be allowed to go in the bathroom that they have transitioned too. More facilities increases costs, Bathroom can be a problem if a male can change his gender and use it to peek at women and women too on men. Legal documentation is also a problem. It is going to cost money and interviews would have to change in order for the business to cater to the needs. Gender can be intersex but if the doctor did decide they would realise they are more female or male. So I don't see why an intersex require a seperate category.
Posted by unicorngod 3 years ago
unicorngod
@omar2345

part of my whole argument is that even if you don't believe people can be trans from male or female to something in between, There are more than two sexes. But the main sexes are male, Female, And intersex. I'm not saying we should label each and every sex. That's impossible. But having an "other" option on legal documents is perfectly fine. Honestly, We don't know for sure people can scientifically identify as gender fluid if they were not born so. But we do know there are many people who don't identify as male or female. Scientifically speaking, No one ACTUALLY knows if there are more than two gender identities which is why my debate is that there are more than two sexes.
Posted by omar2345 3 years ago
omar2345
"that may or may not be posting my argument for round 3) I talk about the multiple/limitless sexes. Not sure if you can see it though because it isnt posting. "

Guessing the problem is with sources. If you do have a URL. Copy the headline of the article and have a name where you found it.
Example:
Orange Man Bad (CNN)
Posted by omar2345 3 years ago
omar2345
@Ew20246

I also agree that unicorngod should have won.

I don't agree with her point. Scientifically there are only 2 genders like you said the several gender identifies that can be male, Female, Intersex etc. Identity is not the same as what you actually are. I should have made it more clear in my debate what I was talking about which is why unicorngod did win.

Can I ask you a question?
Do you support LGBTQ?
You are claiming that you want to be apart of society with the two genders. What I think the community are doing are creating many other genders. I don't see how that makes them fit in when the change that they want makes them different. Yes if you ask people on both sides they would say the LGBTQ community deserve rights. Humans rights which is not want they want. They want more rights instead of what was given during their birth and they still have.

Do you also agree with what I said above?
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