The Instigator
omar2345
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
LuxCoke
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

God cannot be morally good while giving humans free will

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 11/29/2018 Category: Philosophy
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 794 times Debate No: 119232
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (12)
Votes (0)

 

omar2345

Pro

Copy of the same debate I did before but hopefully this time Against would stay until it is over.

I am going by the basis that God does exist. I want the other side to show me how God is morally good while also giving us free will. There are inconsistencies with free will that I can mention but I did think about that it but I will narrow it down to morals to keep it simple. Wanting someone who believes God is morally good not someone who is playing devil's advocate. Arguments starts the round you start.

God: the creator and ruler of the universe and source of all moral authority; the supreme being.

I'll leave the definition of morally good to Against since it will give them more room to give counter arguments and starting arguments.

Premise:

1. By God giving free will to humans It has given the power to humans to do wrong.

2. For God to be morally good It must do what is right.

3. By God giving free will to humans It is not morally good.


May both of us learn something new.

LuxCoke

Con

God: The Triune God revealed through creation and the Bible.

Morally good: God is the standard of goodness. Everything good flows form Him (James 1:17). For humans to be morally good, We must conform to the prescribed will of God. Basically follow God's commandments.

Free will: God has foreordained all things which come to pass (Acts 4:28 || Proverbs 16:33). God alone has absolute freedom. Man's will is restricted by the nature which God gives him. Since we are sinners by nature (Ephesians 2:3), We can do nothing but sin apart from the grace of God (to be found in Jesus Christ). "For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin. " (Romans 14:23b).

Analysis of your argument:

P1: I accept this premise.

P2: I deny this premise. God does not derive His goodness by conforming to some moral law greater than Himself. Rather, God is the transcendent One, Who gives us the moral law. God is Goodness. If I could rewrite this premise, It would say "God is morally good. Therefore, He must always do what is right".

P3: I deny this premise (or conclusion)? It does not logically follow from your first two premises because you have two different senses of "doing wrong". God doing wrong, Is different from, God giving humans the ability to do wrong. Normally in life, We do not hold responsible the primary cause for the secondary cause's sin. If I give a man a shovel, And the man murders another with it, Then I am not morally responsible.

My argument: God has a morally sufficient reason for the evil that exists.

1. There is no one (besides Jesus) who deserves to live in a world free from evil. We are all under the wrath of God, And we all deserve an eternity in Hell. Anything short of this is not injustice, But it is mercy.

2. God works greater good through evil. The Fall of Adam ultimately resulted in the Gospel of Christ. Genesis 50:20 "As for you, You meant evil against me, But God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, To preserve many people alive". Romans 8:28 "And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, For those who are called according to his purpose. "

3. God has a right to do as He wills. Firstly, He made us, And everything flows from Him. Romans 9:20 says "But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this? ”". Secondly, As previously stated, God is the standard for goodness. To accuse Him of evil is to adopt some other arbitrary standard of goodness. If you are going to accuse God of not being morally good, It would be helpful to me if you would state how you determine moral rights and wrongs.

4. God will avenge evil. Deuteronomy 32:35 says "Vengeance is mine, And recompense, For the time when their foot shall slip; for the day of their calamity is at hand, And their doom comes swiftly. " Evil does not go unpunished. People will either pay for their sins eternally in Hell, Or Jesus took upon Himself their guilt on the cross. God is a Just.

5. There is a sense of mystery to this. What I mean by "mystery" is not a magic trump card where I win, You lose. Rather, I mean that God is incomprehensible. God reveals some things to us, And not other things. Deuteronomy 29:29 says "The secret things belong to the LORD our God, But the things that are revealed belong to us and to our children forever". Neither do we have perfect access to the mind of God. Isaiah 55:8 says "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, ” declares the LORD. " What I mean by all this: We have sufficient reason to believe that God is good, But God has not revealed to us why He works His will in particular ways. So, We can know that God is good even through this present evil, And yet we lack knowledge as to why exactly He would use evil at all.
Debate Round No. 1
omar2345

Pro

Morally good: God is the standard of goodness. Everything good flows form Him (James 1:17). For humans to be morally good, We must conform to the prescribed will of God. Basically follow God's commandments.
? It has not showed himself and the Bible is not evidence of Its work instead a telling of events by a human. It cannot be verified it is instead assumed to be true. What I wanted you to define was a general definition of morally good. God is not the standard of goodness since It did create the Devil knowing full well what It will do. That is not goodness if all a creature does is evil.

Free will: God has foreordained all things which come to pass (Acts 4:28 || Proverbs 16:33). God alone has absolute freedom. Man's will is restricted by the nature which God gives him. Since we are sinners by nature (Ephesians 2:3), We can do nothing but sin apart from the grace of God (to be found in Jesus Christ). "For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin. " (Romans 14:23b).
Debate was about how God is not morally god while also giving humans free will. I am assuming free will exists and God for this debate to occur. Guess I will still rebut this. By saying Man's will is restricted by the nature which God gives him states why we do not have free will. You pretty much made the argument for why free will does not exist.

My premise 2 rebuttal of your response.
God is partly to blame for the wrongdoings of mankind. God assuming you believe this It is all-knowing which does mean It can know something happens before it happens. The extreme example would be God allows the rapist rape while also watching it take place. To me the act of allowing the rape is wrong and watching it too also shows no empathy by It.

My premise 3 rebuttal of your response.
You missed the part that It is all-knowing. God knew full well a human would do more evil then good but still allowed for its creation. Not all humans would do more evil then good but some will and God has allowed that to happen. Humans are not all-knowing which is why God is different and many other reasons. If we were all-knowing and allowed for evil to go on that would make us evil but God is somehow an exception. You can say evil occurs for good to occur. As far as I know God is all-knowing and can realise a path where there can be all-good but chooses to gift powers to humans to do evil. To say God is not capable of allowing humans to do all-good is not a fair representation of Its powers.

1.
Jesus is not proven to exist so I am assuming he did. Jesus was not human. Humans are flawed but Jesus wasn't. God gave the talents to Jesus but not to humans. That shows God is capable of creating a sinless being but cannot do it for humans. God can but does create humans with sin. To that very act is sinful.

2.
I kinda knew you were going to bring up the greater good. God is all-knowing but cannot find a way to have good without evil? Jesus is example of sinless being created by It but It cannot do it for humans. Humans are flawed because God created them that way. By also knowing what they would do and still go with creating them God is to blame for human wrong doings due to nature of Its powers like all-knowing. The Fall of Adam was predicted by God since It is all knowing. Knowing full-well what Adam would do It still allowed Adam to do it. That is another non-act by God to somehow to create a greater good. From what I see Adam and Eve were the originators of humans. The humans with flaws. Meaning by God simply not acting on Adam It allowed Adam to create flawed humans which sin. Given the all-knowing of God's nature It is still to blame for this. God acts when It wants to but doesn't when It doesn't want to. Jesus was created by God to save humanity but where was God to stop the Crusaders committing evil?

3.
Our parents made us but they are not away from sin. Fathers can rape their children and mothers can be abusive to you. What makes God different? It is the creator. He wills states the he does not need to do be morally good and still be God. My assertion would be It created us for Its amusment. I choose to believe God does not love us instead created us for his own selfish reasons. Those selfish reasons not need to be morally good since it is Might makes Right. Moral right and wrongs are subjective. To me I determine them by the affect it might have to me and others from my limited perception compared to God. Example: I am cleaning my room. The affect it would have on my mother is that she will have more time to do other things and it would also teach me to be self-reliant. From that I did a morally right thing. I did not need God I only required myself.

4.
Will does not give humans a time frame. God can say evil does not go unpunished but from my point of view Bill Cosby raped many people and used his money to only get a sentence of 10 years. Am I supposed to believe he will get his just punishment in the afterlife? There is no evidence for it and God has allowed the evil to go unpunished until Cosby is sent to hell. It is ironic how that works. Do a evil act and this reality and get punished in another. That is not just since from what humans are concerned he died raping women and had a weak sentence at the end of it.

5.
God is incomprehensible but you still choose to believe it. Why does God punish us for something we cannot comprehend? That is also evil. To expect to believe God on faith rather then the standard we have progressed to today. If It does not tell us why It allows to evil to go unpunished why should we trust his judgement? Because we have no other choice? This would be a might makes right argument. God is not morally good instead It is our supreme being and we should blindly follow It since we do not have power to do otherwise yet I am allowed to disgrace Its name and many other religions are wrong or maybe Christianity is the wrong religion. I highly doubt you have thoroughly spent your time deciding which religion instead you were born into Christianity. Lets say Christianity is the correct religion what about the Arabian's who have not heard of Christianity or the people of North Korea either? Was that just or a mistake of God. What reason would God give to not allow everyone to know the word of God in the Bible. Simple answer maybe just maybe The Bible is not the word of God and God just might be something that has no impact in our reality. If I was talking from someone from Saudi Arabia they would say the same thing as you but in a different context. You might say to this your religion is right but use similar reasoning as the Arabians. We do not have sufficient reason that God is good since It is all knowing God can find a way to remove evil and only create good but It chooses not to. I don't lack knowledge that Bill Cosby raped many women and is only getting 10 years. We lack knowledge but God made us that way and It would allow me to think that it is Its fault. God all-knowing cannot find a way to only create good but did it with Jesus but not humans.

God is not morally good if It allows evil to continue. It is all-knowing and can find a way to create only good but It chose differently.
Didn't copy your argument because there was not enough space so I left a number to show which argument I am speaking of.

This time you are allowed to rebut in the last round and you were in our previous but you chose not to. Make sure you rebut me in
Round 3.

Biggest question I would like you to answer. God does not need to be morally good to be God. So why is It morally good?

May we still learn something new
LuxCoke

Con

LuxCoke forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 2
omar2345

Pro

I kind of figured since his account is not active anymore.
LuxCoke

Con

LuxCoke forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
12 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by omar2345 3 years ago
omar2345
@RationalMaterialist

This is old. Yes I agree free will is an illusion.
Posted by RationalMaterialist 3 years ago
RationalMaterialist
Freewill is a delusion caused by memory issues and the inability to sense everything action and reaction governed by universal constants.
Posted by malus_pudor 3 years ago
malus_pudor
There's a fundamental flaw in this premise -- the use of morality. First and foremost, Morality is not a binary concept -- it exists, As we humans understand it, In multiple facets. Secondly, We are attempting to ascribe human morality to a being that is, By definition, Not human.

Ascribing such morality to a deity is faulty for many reasons, But most prevalent in my mind is the fact that humans can't agree on what is morally right or wrong. Abortion, War, Gun ownership, Citizenship, Etc. . . Lawyers don't argue morality of a precept, They argue legality and right.

Somehow the conversation seems to have been driven over to the idea that this life is a test -- and that is also faulty in theological terms. The Bible speaks of trials, But that doesn't make life a test, The Bible specifically mentions trials as a way to hone specific traits of character. This is an important note simply because this is where Free Will does come into play.

Now, How do we ascribe morality onto a being that can grant life eternally? By what measure do we make, That then states such a being is now amoral because of the doings of other beings? Are we amoral or immoral because mice will eat their own young? The nature of evil is a product of Free Will, You can choose to do/be good or you can choose to do/be evil (yes I know this is not also a binary concept). John Milton wrote about the concept of being "Stupidly Good" -- in other words doing good because you are unaware of any other method -- I think this was mentioned earlier in the comments, That a being of will lose freewill if they are perfectly good. I believe this argument to be a faulty -- Kant also wrote that morality must be a conscious choice, And we are moral through our actions. Milton also argued that being stupidly good, Then one can only do good because they know no different thus not moral. Yet we know right from the start that God is aware of evil, Thus making Him perfectly good by choice.
Posted by omar2345 3 years ago
omar2345
I am going to re re upload this because it states the LuxCoke account is no longer active which I guess means he will not be able to reply back.
Posted by IsaiahWOod23 3 years ago
IsaiahWOod23
God knew what would happen, Of course, I can't tell you why God let the devil be the devil, Besides his mercy. The interesting thing about God is that we barely know anything about him. But I can tell you this(romans 9 talks about this) Everything in existence will glorify God, One way another, In Heaven or in Hell. Because God knew sin would exist does not mean he is imperfect, Or evil. Because are minds can't contemplate Gods nature does not mean He is evil (that might not be what your saying, But it applies). God is perfect because HE has never done anything wrong. In your thinking, Your inadvertently blaming God for your own sin, Which is wrong james 1:13 he allows, Does not force. But I'm not gonna lie, God is complicated, But we know more than enough to known he is true.

I would like to say I respect you fully for expressing your opinion thankyou.
Posted by backwardseden 3 years ago
backwardseden
@IsaiahWOod23 - And your god knew what that outcome would be, That satan would be evil long before satan was conceived. . . Otherwise your god is not a god, Does not know everything, Is not in charge of everything, Is not all knowing or all powerful, Is clearly not omnipotent, Is not perfect etc. There's no choice when you believe in your god. Are you kidding? If your god is a true god he knows ---everything--- long before you do it.
Posted by missmedic 3 years ago
missmedic
The existence of suffering and evil, Therefore, Is clearly not excused by saying that God wants to test us. God knows, If it creates evil, Who will pass its tests and who will fail. God doesn't need to actually create evil, Suffering or unhappiness to know who will fail. Likewise, God does not need us to make moral choices in order to know if we're moral or not. God knows what we would choose if moral options are presented to us. The actual testing is not required because God already knows. Therefore the 'test theodicy' cannot be used to explain why god created evil.
God is all-knowing. It knows everything, Future and past. This is the omniscient monotheistic God. Such a God exists outside of time, And can see all future and past events as if they've all already happened. This chain of events has all been created by God, From beginning to end. God is immovable, Immutable, Beyond time. As a result of all this, God clearly knows what tests we will pass and fail. God knows if we are largely moral or largely immoral. It knows why we transgress, And it knows in detail every reason and factor that ultimately causes us to go wrong.

God therefore never needs to test anyone.
Posted by IsaiahWOod23 3 years ago
IsaiahWOod23
Do you know why the devil became the devil FREE WILL God gave the satan the choice to be good or bad, He became bad. Also when Adam ate the fruit from the tree, That was his free will. To be honest, I could argue that God has more than a right (still being just) to take away are free will so we don't sin, We sin because we CHOOSE to, Which means, Free will is grace, But far from required. God win eitherway!
Posted by backwardseden 3 years ago
backwardseden
Tracie Harris: "Your question was regarding free will as an argument for allowing suffering. That's when you get into the problem of evil. Now the problem of evil as we all know is not an argument that demonstrates that no God exists or that god exists. What it demonstrates is that god is your God is an a$$. What she's telling you is she believes in a God, And I assume she worships this God? Its like is she 'happy' about her god? " Caller: "Oh oh yeah everything except for the old testament. " Tracie "In other words what she is saying is 'I love this God who believes that the free will of the rapist is more important than the free will of the child being raped. That I think that its worth it to have a child be raped because I really really put a high value on a rapist's free will. ""

"When she dies does she get to go to heaven? If she gets to go to heaven will she be happy? And she"ll probably say "yes". And you say "Will you be able to choose and do anything you want while you are in heaven? " And she"ll say "yes. " And so you are basically saying "you"ll have free will in heaven? " So you have free will in heaven and no one is being hurt, Raped, So you can do anything you want and no one gets hurt. If god has that power in heaven, He must have that power on earth. So he"s chose not to set that condition/ toggle switch which means he"s a dick. " Phil Ferguson

"Could god have made the world and not suffering? And if they say "no" then he"s not all powerful. If they say "yes", Then why didn"t he? Its a constant thing. There"s multiple ways to come at it. " Phil Ferguson

http://www. Youtube. Com/watch? V=hOaLlyRId4I - An All Knowing God versus Free Will: The Greatest Religious Contradiction
http://www. Youtube. Com/watch? V=lAqFbiBDb_c - Free Will With God
http://www. Youtube. Com/watch? V=Z1BzP1wr234&t=5s+How - How God Favors Evil
Posted by missmedic 3 years ago
missmedic
This is from a previous argument made over and over again on this same subject, But it still applies here.
That "God is Good" is a common assumption made by theists yet God could exist and be neutral (amoral) or malevolent (evil and immoral). But it cannot be "morally good". It if it perfectly good then it always makes the most perfect choices and therefore has no free will. A being with no free will cannot be morally good as it makes no moral choices; it can only be morally neutral like a robot. Also, If God's actions and wishes are automatically good by definition, Then its morality is arbitrary and we ourselves have no moral reason to follow it, And may do so only out of fear of the consequences or of selfish want of reward. If God's actions are not by definition good, Then, There must be an independent source of the definition of goodness. If God has always been good then God can't have been the creator of goodness; yet if it wasn't, Then what was? The idea of a good god causes contradictions. If you do not accept purely logical, Philosophical or theological arguments that god cannot be benevolent, Then, The real-world existence of evil and suffering (of babies, Etc) is also evidence that the world was not created by a perfectly good god. Natural disasters such as earthquakes and volcanoes appear to be universal and not linked to Human free will, Yet they cause much destruction. It seems that morality and God are contradictory. God cannot be the author of morality nor can it itself be moral.
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