The Instigator
BertrandsTeapot
Pro (for)
The Contender
QuEsTiOnMaRkEd
Con (against)

God cannot possibly be omnipotent and omniscient at the same time

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 8/22/2018 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Debating Period
Viewed: 961 times Debate No: 117821
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (17)
Votes (0)

 

BertrandsTeapot

Pro

If god were omniscient, He would be able to use the state of the universe at any given time to predict the state at any future time. However, If he were omnipotent, He could change that future in which case his prediction was wrong and he would not be omniscient. If he was unable to change the future, He would not be omnipotent.

Another way to put this would be to say that, If God were truly omniscient, He would already know how we was going to alter the course of events in the future using his omnipotence. However, This means that he can't change *that* change, Which means he isn't omnipotent.
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Debate Round No. 4
17 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Block19 3 years ago
Block19
@ BertrandsTeapot

No, The logic is sound the way I explained it. It only seems strange when you intentionally misrepresent it. Regardless, I don't need to explain the point further since Im_intelligent was able to understand it and it got my point across. If you want to have a serious debate, Please go ahead.
Posted by BertrandsTeapot 3 years ago
BertrandsTeapot
@Block19 - by that logic, If one person envisioned a unicorn with 2 horns or no horns or a dorsal fin, The whole argument falls apart. That is obviously absurd because even if people think 3 * 2 = 5, It will always be sick. No matter how many people thought the earth was the center of the universe and persecuted heliocentrists, The sun is still the center of the solar system.

http://www. Paperbackswap. Com/Unicorn-Who-Horn/book/087406015X/
Posted by Block19 3 years ago
Block19
@ BertrandsTeapot:

though there may be many different depictions of unicorns, Due to the fact that they are not real, They all share a singular characteristic; the presence a single horn. It on that fact that a based my correct statement. I hope that clarifies the issue for you because discussing the physiology and etymology of unicorns is not something i care to do.

@ Im_Intelligent:

I cannot argue against statements such as " the god of the bible fits OUR subjective moral standpoint of a being who is immoral assuming he his all powerful and all knowing. " or "the way humanity's turned out is directly his responsibility and the actions he used are unjustified by OUR subjective moral standpoint. ", For the simple fact that they are as you stated subjective viewpoint. However i can argue that the god of the bible would be without any limits or constraints other than those which it chooses to have. I can draw this logical conclusion based upon the fact that in the bible and other religious text he is described to be the creator and destroyer of all, "I am the Alpha and the Omega, The First and the Last, The Beginning and the End. To create ALL one would have to be inherently all powerful and to be the END would require omniscience.
Posted by Im_Intelligent 3 years ago
Im_Intelligent
@Block19
*Continued
Using this i can conclude that as written in biblical context, If the god of the bible exists and is all knowing and all powerful and the bible is 100% true "which its not" then the way humanity's turned out is directly his responsibility and the actions he used are unjustified by are subjective moral standpoint, This is simply a logical consequence that is valid whether or not god is beyond logic or not, I am not using this as evidence but rather just pointing out that this is the logical answer if taken literately.

I too hope we can have a thought provoking discussion.
Posted by Im_Intelligent 3 years ago
Im_Intelligent
@Block19

First off jackgilbert is an uncredible individual who uses creationist sources and has blown off multiple of mine and other debates that he often started in the first place, If you read his debates you will notice that he has very little understanding of even the most basic scientific principles and standards of evidence.

Secondly i was not using immoral or good and evil as evidence for anything, Was simply implying that the god of the bible fits our subjective moral standpoint of a being who is immoral assuming he his all powerful and all knowing, I didn't know if you were religious or not so i didn't make much mention of it.

"I understand that a mythical creature like a unicorn is beyond conventional logic, That doesn't mean we could not make logical assumptions about such a creature. For instance i could correctly say that if a unicorn did exist it would have one horn. I will agree that doing so would require us to ignore what we know to be real. "

So then what would be stopping us from making logical assumptions about a all knowing all powerful being who is also beyond conventional logic? By using your same logic with the one horn and the unicorn i can relate what this being should be capable of and compare it to what the god of the bible supposedly has done, I do this because thats the context people keep using for it, They associate it with the god of the bible, A all knowing all powerful being in general is a different matter all together.
Posted by BertrandsTeapot 3 years ago
BertrandsTeapot
On what basis can you say that if a unicorn did exist it would have a horn?

The only way to say this is by saying, "If the animal that we call a unicorn, Which we've depicted as having a horn, Were real, It would have a horn. "

That is just like saying, "If the God we believe in, Who is omniscient and omnipotent, Were real, It would be omniscient and omnipotent. "

This is one of the most classic, Misguided examples of Begging the Question that exists.
Posted by DeletedUser 3 years ago
DeletedUser
Block19 is exactly right. You run into strange conundrums and paradoxes when you try to put limits on a limitless being.
Posted by Block19 3 years ago
Block19
@ Im_Intelligent:
You must not have read my comment carefully and if you did you certainly did not understand it. I will try and clarify things for you. Firstly I never stated whether or not i was religious, Mainly because my opinion on the matter is not important in a logical argument. Secondly you keep making claims about how you use logic and evidence, However i mainly see you use words like immoral, Good, And evil. I shouldn't have to explain to you that these things are not logical or factual and can not be considered evidence. Lastly i never said "God is beyond logic" what i did say is that God by definition has no limitations.

I understand that a mythical creature like a unicorn is beyond conventional logic, That doesn't mean we could not make logical assumptions about such a creature. For instance i could correctly say that if a unicorn did exist it would have one horn. I will agree that doing so would require us to ignore what we know to be real.

I hope this clarifies things for you. I do look forward to reading your response as i do think we could have a thought provoking discussion.
Posted by BertrandsTeapot 3 years ago
BertrandsTeapot
That was beautiful.
Posted by Im_Intelligent 3 years ago
Im_Intelligent
@Block19

My feelings dont get in the way, If you take the actions done by god in the bible literally while acknowledging that this supposed being is both all knowing and all powerful then he is immoral because his actions fall under what we define as evil and immoral whether it be subjective or not, In fact i have made it quite clear before that i dont think objective morality exists.
Also if god is beyond logic with infinite power, Then why would you even associate him with things that are bound by logical principles such arguments. Also are you trying to say that everything i previously said in an earlier argument about the consequences of god being of both infinite power and knowledge are automatically wrong and justified because god is simply beyond logic -_- thats simply a cop out.
I dont use feelings, I use logic and evidence, If your claims dont meet those two criteria then we shouldent care about it, Because without those two things your whole "god is beyond logic" is no more viable then "Unicorns are beyond logic" "The Tooth Fairy is beyond logic" because they simply exist as unproven unevidented ideas. People i have known tend to take alot of offence to this and that is their personal problem, I remind you that i am not simply referring to a all knowing and all powerful being but rather to the god of the bible that people are claiming is all knowing and all powerful.
Also if a all knowing all powerful being is beyond space-time / logic then how could we figure out whether or not such a being exists? Do you have any accurate methodology whatsoever that could determine whether or not such a being exists and does it have predictive capability, Or does that not count because this beings beyond even that to?
Im interested in finding out whether or not you have a methodology or whether you are stuck with useless philosophical concepts that have no determinable place in reality.
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