The Instigator
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The Contender
Con (against)
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God exists.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 10/6/2013 Category: Religion
Updated: 5 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,990 times Debate No: 38554
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (14)
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I will use verified miracles deemed un-explainable by scientists as well as prophesy fulfilled in modern events to demonstrate the logical deduction of a higher power.


I am an anti-theist. Unlike an atheist who just doesn't believe in a higher power, I believe religion poisons the mind and forces scientific progress to a sluggish halt.

Now that I have pointed out what stance I will be taking, and since you have stated what you want to use for an argument; please post your 'evidence' in the next round and I will more than gladly send my rebuttal.

Also, thank you for taking the time to debate with me. It's much appreciated.
Debate Round No. 1


I agree with you to an extent about poisoning the mind, especially false-religions (I hold there is only one-true religion).

Bolshevism I think you would agree is quite poisoning as well.

My opinion on science is that it is completely profit driven; corporations won't shell out the grants for something they can't yield investment in.

An example of science being exclusive to profits:

The Philippine Pygmy

They reach full adult-hood at 12 years of age, have an average life-span of 16 years and die of old age at 27, and are quite possibly modern surviving homo-erectus; but frankly, no one cares (as noticed by the very short reference list).

I hold that these Aeta People are the result of evolution and that civilized man (Adulthood 18 years, peak age 120 years) are the result of creationism/alien seed theory.

So my first miraculous exposition will be the Image of Guadalupe:

i. Miraculously Received in 1531AD
ii. No undersketching or underdrawing
iii. Material disintegrates in 30 years but hasn't after 500 years
iv. Attempts to make copies have failed
v. Survived acids and fire
vi. Maps Stellar Constellations Unknown Until Late 20th Century In The Position They Were Aligned That Day In 1531AD
vii. Eyes of Image Demonstrate Purkinje-Sanson Law And Contain Microscopic Images
viii. Image Changes Color At Distances
ix. Image Maintains Constant Temperature Regardless Of Room Temperature


Of course you believe your religion to be the one true religion, why wouldn't you? Your parents brought you up in a Catholic (I'm assuming) house hold and therefore you accepted whatever they told you to be true. You were too young to argue or understand what they were saying to be nonsense so you took it as complete and utter fact. If you had been born in Indonesia you would be believing in Allah, if you had been born in India you would be a believer in Hindu, if you had been born in Greece thousands of years ago you would be believing in Poseidon and Zeus. The point is, mono-theism is incredibly ridiculous, and to believe that your God is the one true God means you are JUST as ignorant as the muslim that accepts Allah to be the one true God.

Now, for your so called miracle. Scroll down to Technical Analysis on that page. As I suspected the image has been constantly tampered with to preserve it longer than the normal material would allow for. Also, brush strokes were found on the painting. Just because MOST of the people in the 1500's needed to do an under sketch doesn't mean that all painters needed one.

Do you really believe this? I could burn the image of jesus into my arm right now and claim that it just appeared and half of all Christians would instantly accept that as evidence. Proof even. Obviously it's a little different than your claim, but still you get the idea.

I'll leave you with a quote from the great late Christopher Hitchens. "What is more likely? That the laws of nature have been suspended in your favor (a miracle), or that you are under a grave misapprehension?"
Debate Round No. 2


Did you check out the constellation map? It's incredible.

Actually I was raised atheist but became Catholic after a supernatural event and much research.

So my next exposition will be something modern, a caught on film apparition of the Virgin Mary in 2011 over the Ivory Coast.

The technical aspects are absolutely incredible, when you look at the un-enhanced original video you cannot see anything but the sun, but if you tilt your laptop screen to dim brightness the apparition appears.

I could not find any or anyone with means to recreate this supernatural chameleon effect with software or even begin to hypothesize how . The first video is dimmed (digitally) and shows what the crowd saw.

The second video is the original and the miracle happens at 1:40 when the crowd starts screaming; you can pause it there and see how dimming screen brightness (by tilting laptop screen) makes it visible.

I would be very impressed if you could explain how this could possibly be forged.


This one is actually easier to explain.

First off, let me ask you an easy question. Do you believe aliens have visited the earth before? Because there are thousands more videos that are much more impressive than that one of the virgin mary, that have been put together in a more talented and sly manner. There are videos of UFO sightings that make even the greatest disbelievers start to believe.

However, it is slightly possible that the video hasn't been tampered with in any way shape, or form. This being the case you have to look at the fact that the atmosphere has been turning pollution and other gases into shapes and forms that humans automatically fit into whatever it is they want it to fit. If I saw two white clouds crossing each other like two bones I could instantly match it with crossbones which are an image of death. If I were a fanatic I could then get everyone else to believe that what i saw was a revelation when in fact it was a mere coincidence.

Humans are a pattern seeking species. All we do is look for ways of putting things together to fit what we know, or in religions case what we think we know. You need to give me something much more concrete, and empirical, if you are to have me accept any of this 'evidence'. For instance, science put a man on the moon- that's evidence that it works, religion crashes planes into buildings, commits mass genocide, starts the crusades, what does this say about religion?
Debate Round No. 3


Lol toxic clouds formed the virgin mary. so funny man.

Your denial mechanism is more miraculous than anything Jesus did, scientists should capture you and run tests so that we may eventually have superior mental abilities like you.

So I am going to throw out a defense for the necessity by nature of religious mass-killings with modern examples.

This video above is regards to a man who sued his wife for producing an ugly baby. Record numbers of Asians are getting plastic surgery, why is it that the majority of the Asian Population can only be described as "butt-f8cking-ugly"?

Inbreeding. These Countries have unnaturally gone over 1000 years without being utterly sacked, all the men killed, and all the women raped. The gene-pool hasn't been reset and now every Chinese is practically a second cousin to each other.

To make matters worse, the rules of war have changed and you can no longer execute all adult-age males and rape the women, which means the gene-pool can never be reset now.

God now has to step in with the apocalypse to reset the gene pool.


You obviously have no idea what Miraculous means even though I defined it for you in my last argument.

You don't want to argue the moral issue of religion with me, because you will lose. Period. If you're saying people who aren't religious are immoral because people in china inbreed with one another, than you are obviously an ignoramus. First off, what makes sleeping with people related to you wrong? If you want to get SUPER technical I could tell you that we are ALL related. We're related to fish for goodness sake! Your argument is invalid. Just because inbreeding is risky doesn't make it immoral. Abortion is risky, childbirth is risky, neither of those are immoral.

I'll tell you what the definition of evil is though.

Killing 99.9% of the population on earth because mankind isn't using his free will like you intended him to. Pure evil.
Debate Round No. 4


It's a good demonstration of the higher-intelligence behind nature.

Nature absolutely demands speciation, and absolutely hates towns and villages where the people inbreed for hundreds of years.

Nature punishes the incestuous areas by making the offspring utterly stupid, weak, and pitifully ugly; easy to kill by the marauding invaders.

Nature also brings the marauding invaders, tricking them into thinking they'll get gold, restored honor, et. al by killing everyone; making them unwitting pawns in the demand for speciation.

Closed borders, e-trade, and modern military defense has ensured the continual inbreeding.

Nature is f*cking pissed. We will certainly see a World War 3 (Armageddon) in our lifetime; and we'll think it was over Assad using chemical weapons or Iran building nukes; atheists will blame religion; but really it was just the intelligence of nature guiding us the entire time.


You went from arguing Gods existence, to stating that nature is pissed. Nature has a conscience? I was mistaken, I kind of figured that nature was just a word for everything around us.

Honestly, I don't really think I need argue with you anymore. Everyone with some sort of intelligence will know who won this debate.

We have the person who grew out of santa claus and the easter bunny, but not God.

We have I, the free thinker.
Debate Round No. 5
14 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by DanielDate 5 years ago
Well it's proven that elements of the bible are from the BC era, and there is a lot of fulfilled prophesies that aren't too ambiguous like Nostradamus. Here is one that shows that Coptic Egyptian and Chaldean Assyrian Rite Catholics coming into communion with Rome.

Isaiah 19:21- And the Lord shall be known by Egypt...and they shall return to the Lord...Blessed be my people of Egypt...

Isaiah 19:23 The Egyptians and Assyrians will worship together. (Coptic & Chaldean Rite Catholic)

Isaiah 19:18 One of them will be called the City of the Sun

The Vatican is an astrological sun-dial, it is literally the "City of the Sun".
Posted by Gaben11 5 years ago
How do you know that the bible is a valid source of information, and not simply written by men with no connections to the god that you assert exists, how do you know the men weren't just simply making the stories up and didn't actually believe what was written to be true? You can't actually call the bible evidence if there is nothing to suggest that the bible is a valid source of information.
Posted by DanielDate 5 years ago
It's a great sign in heaven and one of the Apocalypse, and I'll draw that into the higher-intelligence thing here in my rebuttal.

Revelation 12:1 A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head.
Posted by Gaben11 5 years ago
More problems with Pros argument.

First off, you still have yet to prove that there is an actual anomaly with your supposed "miracles." You need to prove what happened was something that defied the laws of nature, and then you need to prove that this suspension of nature was an act of god. You have done neither. The burden of proof is on you Pro, you are the one asserting that these acts are acts of God, so you are the one who needs to present evidence of that. It is not up to Con to prove why they aren't.

If I were to assert that the "image of Mary" was actually a ploy by the great spaghetti Zeus in the sky as an attempt to set non believers off course, you would think I was crazy, however I have offered just as much evidence as you did to suggest this was an act of spaghetti Zeus: none.

I can't reiterate this enough, just because science doesn't have an explanation for the act, doesn't mean it's an act of god.

Your 4th argument is a red herring, it has nothing to do with the argument established in the first round. You are arguing that "miracles" prove the existence of god, not that mass killings are good for humanity.

Also, don't insult Con, it doesn't actually boost your argument.
Posted by Gaben11 5 years ago
This proves nothing, sure, lets assume this picture is special. You still haven't proven how it became special, just because the people in the audience jumped to conclusions doesn't prove it's an act of god. Science isn't a democracy. As I said earlier, you could easily jump to any other conclusion: "flying alien men" created it and have equal merit as saying it was an act of god.

In short, just because you can't explain something, it doesn't make it an act of god.
Posted by DanielDate 5 years ago
The crowd certainly believed so, you can hear at the end of the video the screaming of "Hallelujah!".

1. We have a crowd witnessing it and screaming
2. It made African TV and went internet viral without a single refutation in 3.5 years now.
3. It's impossible to refute. That you can't see the apparition directly looking at your screen but can by adjusting the monitor, this can't be the result of photoshop or floodlights.

It actually reminds me of Indian Jones where no one can look at the Ark of the Covenant without dying.
In Catholicism the Virgin Mary is held to be the Ark of the New Covenant.
Posted by SecularSociety 5 years ago
A miracle is something that suspends the laws of nature.

I highly doubt the laws of nature were suspended JUST slightly enough to make people think that this COULD be an image of Mary. Honestly, if she really wanted anyone to believe in her she would find a better way don't you think?
Posted by DanielDate 5 years ago
It defies photo-physics. How can you photoshop blue-light onto an image of the sun without clearly seeing the added color direct on? And then have it appear by adjusting hue/lightness?

If you shine a flashlight into the sun, no matter what color your light is; you won't see it's beam.

This is amazingly miraculous, notice how the only explanations anyone can offer is miracle, satan or a secret government plan to write coca cola in the sky lol
Posted by SecularSociety 5 years ago
That proves nothing. The only thing that says is that the man/woman who altered the video clip knows what they are doing.
Posted by DanielDate 5 years ago
Did you notice the chameleon effect where you cannot see the apparition looking straight on but it appears when you adjust lightness/saturation/hue by tilting the screen?
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