The Instigator
billsands
Pro (for)
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The Contender
EJR925
Con (against)
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God is Dead AND WE HAVE KILLED HIM

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 10/20/2018 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 729 times Debate No: 118639
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (6)
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billsands

Pro

I am not sure if there is a god, Some say belief is hard wird into our little frightened brains, That we need to have a god, Because life is scary and we do not know, And thats terrifying, We need to know there is a god so we can sleep at not and feel we have a pruprose, Without god people feel meaningless and go crazy killing raping dogs eating babies etc. . Calm down since the enlightenment since the advent of science medcine and technology we kno more the more we learn the less we need to be afraid, The less we need a god to give us purpsose, We seee this as advanced societies almost universally are more secular
Millions have died in wars over religion beleive what yo will but please don't force it on the rest of us
EJR925

Con

Is believing in God a delusion? Let"s see what science says about religious
beliefs:

Two researchers (Andrew Newberg & Eugene D'Aquili) looked at the
chemistry of the brain during religious experience. They discovered mystical experience is biologically, Observably, And scientifically real.

". . . The mystical experiences of our subjects. . . Were not the result of
emotional mistakes or simple wishful thinking, But were associated instead with a series of observable neurological events, Which, While unusual, Are not outside the range of normal brain function. " " In the book Why God Won"t Go Away by Andrew Newberg & Eugene D'Aquili. Jesse Bering, Not a theist, Former director of the Institute of
Cognition and Culture, Has published studies that theistic beliefs are natural. ". . . Belief is a "cognitive default" and that, All else being equal, In any
given cultural context religious beliefs are driven into expression by a universal, Evolved, Core set of psychological intuitions present in all normal human brains. " " Jesse Bering. Studies also show that theistic beliefs are intuitive at a very young
age. Young children naturally believe that things were created as they are
and exist with purpose. "Children are prone to believe in supernatural beings such as spirits, Ghosts, Angels, Devils, And gods during the first four years of life due to ordinary cognitive development in ordinary human environments. " " Justin L. Barret, Cognitive scientist. This even includes children that are raised in atheist households. He found the same results for them as well. Read the book Born Believers: The Science of Children's Religious Belief by Justin L. Barret for thorough details for this particular topic. So religious beliefs are not delusional. Instead they are normal.

Believing in the existence of God is far more than just a delusion, And
is quite natural in our cognitive development. Research actually shows that atheism is unnatural and almost
impossible for the human mind to believe.

This means that the research suggest that most atheists actually
believe that life has meaning and purpose. And believe in a higher being even if they don't realize it or admit it. "In a more recent study [Heywood & Bering, Unpublished], Self-
described British and American atheists were asked a series of quasi- structured interview questions about their own major life events as part of an alleged (i. E. , Cover) study on autobiographical memory. Many of these individuals" answers revealed an implicit attribution of
teleo-functional, Fatalistic purpose to these "turning points" in their lives. A typical example of the atheist"s reasoning in this manner is shown in a response given by a British undergraduate student who considered herself to be an unflinching non-believer. One of the most significant events in her life, She said, Was failing an important university course and losing her prestigious scholarship. It changed everything. But when she was asked why it happened to her an ambiguous question that appealed to her poor study habits, Challenges at home, Or ineptitude as much as anything else-she answered: "So that I could see that even if I failed a course, My life wouldn't actually end. " This woman is indeed an atheist, In terms of how she identifies herself. And yet like many religious believers, She sees some intrinsic meaning in her personal life events. " " Jesse Bering.

Some other research suggest that atheists become emotionally
aroused when daring God to do terrible things. Or try to strike Him down. This suggests that subconsciously they do believe in a higher power
even if they consciously do not admit it. "In the first study, Reading the provocations addressed to God
increased atheists' emotional arousal more than reading neutral statements about such things as sleep and weather. Second, God statements resulted in equal tension among atheists as reading the offensive statements (e. G. , "It"s okay to kick a puppy in the face"). Third, This same pattern of results was obtained for religious individuals. The results indicate that compared to their conviction and responses on the self-report measure, Atheists' implicit reactions to the God statements were more similar to the reactions of religious individuals. When reading the God statements in Study 2, Atheists experienced greater emotional arousal than when reading the offensive statements. Moreover, When reading the God statements, Atheists' emotional arousal increased as much as did religious individuals' arousal. Atheists also refused to say aloud the God statements and they felt the need to undo the statements equally often as religious individuals did, Although neither group refused to say statements very often or retracted statements very often. " " Atheists Become Emotionally Aroused When Daring God to Do Terrible Things page 130.
One might think that they don"t believe in a God, But that doesn't
necessarily connect to a true repressed belief they have or that belief might be present in the mind even without one's conscious awareness of it.

"disbelief is generally the result of deliberate, Effortful work against
our natural cognitive dispositions " hardly the easiest ideology to propagate. " " Pascal Boyer, Anthropologist and cognitive scientist in religion. "[disbelief] requires some hard cognitive work to reject or override
the intuitions that nourish religious beliefs. " A. Norenzayan & W. M. Gervais in Cognitive Sciences 17 page 20.

Another study from 2011, Journal of Personality and Social
Psychology, Says that atheists exhibit anger towards God. Which is weird because you can't angry at things you don't think exist. I don't like the character of Allah or Romulus but that doesn't mean I hate them. Perhaps their disbelief is not really disbelief, But a rejection and hatred towards someone they know exists and disbelief is just a mental way of dealing with their anger. There's so much research on this it would be impossible to put it all
on here. It is in fact atheists whose beliefs are unnatural, And the data leads to
a possibility their beliefs are the ones that are delusional.

Now on your statement about religion kills millions of people. I am a Christian so a couple of recent examples are Rawandan genocide (1994) and the Catholic-Protestant Conflict in N. Ireland (1980's). The real reasons for these wars had nothing to do with Christian theology, But rather they were concerned with tribalism (between the Hutus and the Tutsis) and British colonialism. There are cases where it does seem it was motivated by theological or doctrinal differences (like the Thirty Year's War 1618-48), But this is based on an incorrect and unbiblical view of the role of civil government. The role of government is not to force someone to believe in a particular religion or holy book, It is to provide safety and protection for the population (see Romans 13). What about in the twentieth-century countless millions have died under atheistic regimes (Stalin, Lenin, Pol Pot, And Mao Se Tung)?

I apologize for the long response. Thank you for taking the time to read my argument.
Debate Round No. 1
billsands

Pro

Science proved Religious visions were true? ! Science did that? There is spuedo science and there is junk Science, Amd no criedible sceintific source has ever "proved' relgious visionst to be anythng more than figments and chimera, It is absurd to think otherwise.


Does the biological structure of our brains program us to believe in God? Recent advances in "neurotheology" have even prompted some scientists to propose they can induce the kind of holy visions of prophets, Even in those who have never experienced religious belief.

Dr Michael Persinger of Laurentian University, Canada, Has devised a special helmet that uses electromagnetic fields to induce electrical changes in the brain's temporal lobes, Which are linked with religious belief.

So confident is he that God is all in the mind, Or the brain at least, That Dr Persinger claims he can induce mystical feelings in a majority of those willing to don his Transcranial Magnetic Stimulator.

EJR925

Con

Nowhere in my opening statement did I make the claim that that specific research proves God exists. I was responding to two of your main assertions. Religion has killed millions and basically you were saying that people believe in God to give life meaning and purpose or wishful thinking. Again nowhere did I make the claim that that proved God existed. I have many arguments for that. That research was to demonstrate that it is natural to have theistic beliefs. Not delusional. That's the only point I tried to make.

It's important to understand the distinction between things that exist necessarily vs contingently. Necessary things exist in their own nature they don't need a cause (necessary). Contingent things only exist because something or someone caused it to exist. It's logically possible that contingent things don't have to exist. Whatever begins to exist must have a cause:
Everyday experience & scientific evidence proves this premise. Anything that begins to exists must have a cause.
If this premise was not true, Then we would observe dragons and unicorns pop out of existence from nothing. But we don't see that because nothing comes from nothing. Nothing is not a cause. Aristotle had a good definition of nothing, Nothing is what rocks dream about according to Aristotle. The universe began to exist [either the universe is the uncaused first cause, Necessary, And eternal or something beyond the universe is the uncaused first cause, Necessary, And eternal]: I will use Dr. Frank Turek's collection of SURGE evidence (because of the quantity).

SURGE evidence;
S - Second Law of Thermodynamics
The first law states that the universe is running out of usable energy. The universe only has a finite amount of energy. If the universe is running out of usable energy then somebody must of put usable energy in it. The second law states that nature tends to bring things to disorder, Meaning things naturally fall apart. If the universe was eternal then we would have ran out of usable energy right now.
U " Universe Expansion
Edwin Hubble found in 1929 that space and matter are expanding outward. Currently the space and matter in the universe are expanding and when he reversed that he found it came from a single point in the finite past, A beginning known as the singularity.
R - Radiation Afterglow
In 1965 Arno Penzias and Robert Wilson detected radiation out in the universe. There is still light & heat measurable in the universe from the expansion of the universe (U in SURGE). They won Nobel Peace Prizes in Physics in 1978.
G - Great Galaxy Seeds
In 1992 scientists found ripples in the temperature of the cosmic background radiation (R in SURGE).
Those ripples allow matter to congregate gravitational attraction to form our galaxy. Allow just enough matter to permit galaxy formation.
But also just enough to not allow the universe to collapse on itself. Even a slight variation in either direction will eliminate life.
E - Einstein"s Theory of General Relativity
In 1916 Einstein found that time, Space, And matter are co-relative. They came into existence at the same time.
If you have space and matter but no time then WHEN would you begin creation.
If you have time and matter but no space WHERE would you put the creation.
If you have time and space but no matter WHAT would you create.
Therefore you have to have time, Space, And matter come into existence simultaneously.

SURGE evidence reveals that there is good scientific and philosophical evidence proving the universe began to exist. Therefore, The Universe must have a cause:
Since premise 1 & 2 are true then this premise is also true. Since the universe did not cause itself into existence. The cause can"t be limited or made by time, Space, Or matter. The cause has to be outside the time, Space, Matter realm. Which makes the cause timeless, Spaceless, And immaterial.
If you are timeless do you have a beginning? No, God is infinite.
If you are spaceless and immaterial can you measure, Weigh, Or play American Football with the cause? No, The cause is not limited by space or matter.
The cause must be all-powerful because the universe was created out of nothing in the finite past. Whatever caused the universe into existence must be extremely powerful to create something out of nothing.
The cause must be personal because it's logically possible the universe didn't have to exist. It only exists because something or someone made a choice. Only persons make rational choices.
So you have a timeless, Spaceless, Immaterial, All-powerful, Personal uncaused first cause. Those are the attributes of God without any reference to the Bible.

I am not the only one saying this. Even atheist scientists are admitted this.

"Scientists can no longer hide behind a past-eternal universe. There is no escape, They have to face the problem of a cosmic beginning. " - Cosmologist Alexander Vilenkin.

"The best data we have (concerning the Big Bang) are exactly what I would have predicted had I had nothing to go on but the five book of Moses, The Psalms, And the Bible as a whole. " " American Physicist Arno Penzias.

"Certainly there was something that set it all of --- I can't think of a better theory of the origin of the universe to match Genesis. " - American Physicist Robert Wilson

Based on this one argument it is reasonable to believe that God exists and it is highly probable that God does exist. I am NOT making the claim that I know 100% certainty that a theistic God exists. Only that it is reasonable to believe it and it is highly probable.
Debate Round No. 2
billsands

Pro

we are hardwired to beleive in god, Or were, Look at man, An apel like creature evolved from a chimpanzee, Alone scared looking up at the stars smart enough to ask questions, Ignorant enough not to be able to answer them, But now we are answering them, We fly to the moon literally we have computers and i phiones in sweden they have installed chips in people, That function as keys and credit cards, We are evolving to the next step, Isthere a god, Are we alone? I don't know, But i do know lonley and confused as we are we are making amazing progress, We may no longer need god, In the near future
EJR925

Con

The existence of God and the idea if we need God two different topics. Perhaps we can have another debate more thoroughly in the future.
Debate Round No. 3
6 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 6 records.
Posted by Mentalista 3 years ago
Mentalista
Dennet's paper: http://polatulet. Narod. Ru/dvc/ddbs/dennett_breaking. Html
Posted by Mentalista 3 years ago
Mentalista
Daniel Dennet has already refuted this paper by Andrew and Michael Shermer (an American science writer, Historian of science, And psychologist which is largely devoted to investigating pseudoscientific and supernatural claims) wrote a good book about the science of belief (namely: The Believing Brain).

Regarding the alleged hate that atheists have: They claim they don't hate God, But what people do for God. Like those crazy people that flies into buildings and kill a lot of innocent people. If nobody whorshipped God, Atheists would not care about it. They care about the implications of belief in God.
Posted by EJR925 3 years ago
EJR925
canis Nowhere in my opening statement responding to billsands assertions did I make any claims that the scientific research I provided prove God existed. I only responded to his opening assertions. If you read my opening response to billsands (all of it) nowhere did I make a claim that that specific research proves God exists.
Posted by canis 3 years ago
canis
You "kill" a dream, (god), By not dreaming it. But there will always be godmakers.
"Children are prone to believe in supernatural beings such as spirits, Ghosts, Angels, Devils, And gods during the first four years of life". .
Some children believe that there is a monster under the bed. That Kermit the frogg is real, Or that Sante is flying around and give them gifts in dec. . . Some do.
Posted by missmedic 3 years ago
missmedic
Look at that sentence, Billy you need to use commas and the word "and".
"Without god people feel meaningless and go crazy killing raping dogs eating babies etc. "
Without god people feel meaningless and go crazy, Killing and raping dogs eating babies etc.
Without god people feel meaningless and go crazy killing, Raping dogs and eating babies etc.
Without god people feel meaningless and go crazy, Killing, Raping, Dogs eating babies etc.
I love this site. . . LOL
Posted by Mendez.chavez14 3 years ago
Mendez.chavez14
I do not believe that people adopt any theory about God to help them and to be honest you are wrong about why propel believe in a god yes life is scary me as religious man does not believe in a god to give me purpose but to show me the way he intended us. In this world today you"ve had just as many killings over money power oil and gold as you have had religious killings. So you tell me even if you do believe humans have inhabited the earth for 2018 years how many of those years was spent on killing religiously because any rational person could see more have been killed over the aforementioned influencers than religion. God does not condemn violence unjustifiably. If you can tell me another way this earth was created that actually makes sense then i"ll listen otherwise you may need to actually find a purpose in life besides thinking that people do things to feel safe or to just prospure themselves.
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