The Instigator
CrypticIndividual
Pro (for)
The Contender
gurghet
Con (against)

God is Real

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Debate Round Forfeited
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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 9/5/2017 Category: Religion
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Debating Period
Viewed: 854 times Debate No: 103804
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (25)
Votes (0)

 

CrypticIndividual

Pro

There has been a lot of evidence that proves the reliability of the bible.

First, although this does not prove other religions wrong, it is more logical to be an Agnostic than an Atheist. The fine-tuning theory has been debunked, yet there is still more to it. You can assume that we are just a lucky species that happened to be on the right planet for our needs, but to say that that is the only factor of this life that must have been really dependent on luck is unreasonable. Every animal on this Earth happens to reproduce, and in the same way. Every animal also needs to breathe, usually in a universe based on luck that sort of thing wouldn't happen. And, finally, I will conclude this at the excretory system which is very similar for every animal.

Another thing is that there have been many Christian prophecies that have happened just as expected. For example:

"...This whole country will become a desolate wasteland, and these nations will serve the king of Babylon seventy years. But when the seventy years are fulfilled, I will punish the king of Babylon and his nation, the land of the Babylonians, for their guilt," declares the Lord, "and will make it desolate forever."

There are many more of these, and I don't want to fill my argument with all of them, but it is certainly unlikely for all of this to be based on chance.

Good luck.
gurghet

Con

There has been a lot of evidence that proves the bible is not only unreliable, but also internally inconsistent (see http://bibviz.com...).

The God of the bible has characteristics that make it logically inconsistent too. For example God is referred in the Bible as Almighty, meaning, according to scholars that he is omnipotent, yet he cannot lie (Titus 1:2). And yet in Jeremiah 20:7, he complains to be deceived by God.

The latest edits of Jeremiah are dated in the 2nd century BC, this means that the prophecy could have be written well after it happened. Although it was written probably by Deuteronomist in the 6th century BC because of their greater enphasis on the prophetic aspect of the book.

So of course some prophecies in the Bible are not based on chance, they are based on facts happened in the past. So they are not real prophecies are they?

All this really does nothing to prove the truth of the theme of the debate "God is real" but I wanted to get it out of the way anyways.

So basically I have no argument for this round because no evidence for the claim was presented.
Debate Round No. 1
CrypticIndividual

Pro

For your first argument, the word "deceived" was just out of anger, as he was complaining. It was not God who told him to use that word to describe it, but if you read further on, you would see that no deception took place. You can not take a few words from the bible and claim it is a contradiction without understanding the context.

Some of the prophecies have been recorded and people have been able to find out the time it was recorded.

If you want an example of this then read this:

https://bible.org...
gurghet

Con

So according to you the God of the bible cannot lie. So it is not almighty. So the bible is not reliable.

The dead scrolls have very vague prophecies, as a matter of fact they are so vague that Jews, which believe in them, are still waiting for them to be fullfilled.




Debate Round No. 2
CrypticIndividual

Pro

Now you are putting words into my mouth. Again, it was not God that used the phrase "can not lie," it is just people's way of describing that he hasn't ever lied. Besides, you don't prove god doesn't exist by testing our understanding of omnipotence. Also, you ignored my fine-tuning argument completely when you made your argument on the first round.

"Surely our griefs He Himself bore, And our sorrows He carried; Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken, Smitten of God, and afflicted. But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, And by His scourging we are healed.""

If you have read the bible it should come as no surprise to you that this is talking about Jesus, and it is documented that Jesus existed.
gurghet

Con

No, the bible explicitly says that God cannot lie (Titus 1:2). Since the bible is the word of God, God said that he cannot lie.
I’m not trying to prove that God doesn’t exist, I’m just trying to disprove that he exists, or in other words, I’m arguing against the validity of the claim "God is Real".
I was also not testing our understanding of omnipotence, just pointing out the apparent contradiction in the Bible: God can do anything, God cannot lie.
I ignored the your fine-tuning argument because you said it was already debunked. But even if the fine-tuning argument was sound, it does nothing to prove that God is Real. If the universe is fine tuned, maybe Allah did it, or maybe Krishna, most probably the GSM or Russel’s celestial teapot. This is not even related to the bible so I’ll dismiss it.
Beside this, the fine-tuning argument is not sound, but the particular way in which you presented it doesn’t make much sense to me. You said:
  • Every animal needs to breathe, true
  • Usually in a universe based on luck this would not happen, also true
So? For the same token it would be very improbable for me to win the lottery tomorrow, yet someone will win the lottery. Improbable doesn’t mean impossible.
Furthermore what about the other 99,999...% of the universe? Was that fine-tuned too to be deadly? But again, proving this will lead you nowere so why bother, still please explain to me why you like animals so much and completely disregard bacteria, fungi, plants and viruses.
About the Dead Sea Scrolls, I don’t believe in Jesus so to me it’s just a story retrofitted to conform to as much prophecies as possible, but please ask the Jews (who really believe in this nonsense) why they think Isaiah and other prophets are talking about Israel and not Jesus. At any rate, remember that a true prophecy must have the following characteristic:
  1. It must predict something not obvious
  2. It must be precise and not ambiguos
  3. It must be improbable
In your case Isaiah is clearly talking about the nation of Israel so if it was a prophecy it would at least lack number (2) as it’s not clear what he is predicting. The fact that it was quoted in Matthew to fulfill the prophecy doesn't prove much.
But let’s say it was really a prophecy and it was really fulfilled Simon bar Kokhba is a far more compelling choice. He definitely carried all the sorrows of his fellow Jews, he was wounded by hebrew trasgressors (samaritans), but thaks to his sacrifice he finally declared a new Jewish state to protect all the Jews.
Debate Round No. 3
CrypticIndividual

Pro

"In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;"
I do not know if you were serious when making that point. First of all, God is defined as omnipotent by people, not by his own word, it could be true that he is not able to lie and that omnipotent is not the best way to describe him as it is would not make sense because of him not being able to lie, but don't take words that humans give God too seriously. In the Bible and regular Christian conversation, there are some words or phrases given to describe God in a way that could help you understand God's actions better. With that logic, I am also able to come to the conclusion that what that part of Titus 1:2 said is just the way that he can best describe God so that people would be able to understand that God chooses not to lie, which I believe is the truth. No matter which way you look at this, it is able to be explained.

Also, if you were to look at my fine-tuning argument again, you would have seen that I said:
"First, although this does not prove other religions wrong,"
Meaning that I acknowledged it did not prove Christianity to be correct and followed it with this:
"it is more logical to be an Agnostic than an Atheist."
Meaning that I was clearly just pointing out how the idea of Atheism wasn't logical to to have faith in, as it is unlikely.
I do take the blame for not making it clear that I was trying to expand on what most Christian debaters consider the fine-tuning theory because I posted this:
"The fine-tuning theory has been debunked, yet there is still more to it."
Rather than something much more clear like this:
"The fine-tuning theory has been debunked, yet the idea can still be used as evidence against Atheism."
Which I will do in future scenarios.

As you can see on this page:
https://en.wikipedia.org...
There is a good amount of evidence that Jesus existed, but not any clear evidence of what really happened.

About the prophecies, it would make sense if there were not more prophecies that all seem to represent Jesus.

"For He will honor the pious upon the throne of His eternal kingdom, release the captives, open the eyes of the blind, lifting up those who are oppressed" For He shall heal the critically wounded, He shall raise the dead, He shall bring good news to the poor."

It would probably seem made up until you compare it to this:

"Go tell John what you have seen and heard: the blind receive their sight, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, the poor have the good news brought to them."

Which you can see in Luke 7:21-22.
gurghet

Con

So God chooses not to lie, yet he deceive people. There are other examples, like Thessalonians 2:11.

You just repeated your point on fine-tuning. I already explained how it’s not a sound argument.
To make things easier I will make an analogy. Take a puddle in a hole. The puddle is created perfectly to fit the hole by God of the Puddles. The hole was created perfectly to welcome the puddle. At their interface, the puddle and the hole meet each other perfectly. Does this sound like a reasonable explanation? Isn’t more rational to say that when we weren’t there the hole was empty and the rain filled the hole? Of course we will never know for sure, we weren’t there when it happened, still, what explanation is more plausible. And if you are going for the God of the Puddles, isn't just as absurd as the God of the Holes? Even if we never saw the rain, isn’t it more logical to be atheist since there is no proof for a God of the Puddles? (and a God of the Holes for that matter)

Also you wrote more fullfilment to prophecies that were ment to mean something else, the suffering of Israel in this case.
Debate Round No. 4
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Debate Round No. 5
25 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by CrypticIndividual 1 year ago
CrypticIndividual
This debate's last argument was posted a month ago yet it still says this: "Our system has not yet updated this debate. Please check back in a few minutes for more options."
Posted by CrypticIndividual 1 year ago
CrypticIndividual
Really sorry. I got logged out and forgot my password so I wasn't able to finish the debate.
Posted by gurghet 1 year ago
gurghet
@kwagga_la sorry, but the joke didn't help me clear your point further. Anyways, if God inspired the bible he did a crappy job in communicating the meaning of the world "almighty" since we can"t agree on a definition.
Furthermore I just took the definition bible scholars use, how do you know your definition is better?
Posted by kwagga_la 1 year ago
kwagga_la
@gurghet The only way God can be "Almighty" is if He can choose not to do something. If He had no choice He is forced by something else. The definition of "Almighty" in the Bible is different from what you make it out to be. God is "Almighty" in that everyone else cannot overrule that which He decreed or sets out to do. Nobody else can match His power and ability to force Him or overrule what He sets out to do. You base your argument on how you perceive "Almighty" must apply to the God of the Bible and that is where the fallacy in your reasoning is. Your definition of "Almighty" is contradictory in itself and therefore not logical to begin with. It's the difference between nature and will. You have to argue for or against "Almighty" based on the Biblical definition. Let me illustrate by telling a joke. The minister of agriculture makes visits to farms and ask the one farmer why the cow standing in the field do not have horns. The farmer says: Well, some are born without horns and sometimes we remove a cow's horns to prevent injury. He says: But this particular cow do not have horns because it is a horse!
Posted by canis 1 year ago
canis
What is not real you have to ask yourself. If a book can make a difference...
Posted by DawnBringerRiven 1 year ago
DawnBringerRiven
@Cryptic I said the statement that a god not existing is unrealistic is hypocritical, or maybe it would be better to say ironic. I do not believe in creationism or the big bang, as either is a possibility. I did give reasons other than a god popping into existence also. I think an intelligent being that can manipulate the very laws of physics popping into existence is more unrealistic, then a bunch of rocks and balls of fire popping into existence. You say the universe is so big so that we can explore and discover it, but that is impossible to accomplish. The observable universe, every part of the universe where light has reached, is 96 million light years long if I'm not mistaken. That means, if we traveled the speed of light from one end of the observable universe to the other, it would take us 96 million years assuming we kept a constant speed. Humans have around a 100 year lifespan. It's not possible. Also the observable universe is only the part where light has reached. It is possible that the rest of the universe is over a 100 sextillion times larger. Just for reference, one sextillion is 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000. 21 zeros. The universe is literally unfathomably large.
You say that my argument is irrelevant and invalid because the same event can happen in either belief. That is another ironic statement. You stated earlier that the big bang popping into existence is unrealistic, but god doing it is not. Both beliefs are unrealistic, and it is possible that both are wrong, but in both cases the universe pops into existence. Either by a god's hand, or by the work of some other more natural force. By saying that my argument is irrelevant and invalid, using that same logic, you have stated some of your own arguments to be invalid and irrelevant.
Posted by CrypticIndividual 1 year ago
CrypticIndividual
@Dawn Sorry, I didn't realize how much of your comment I forgot to respond to.

How is saying that they function in similar ways hypocritical? I do not see you giving reasons as to why. If you are going to accuse me of saying something hypocritical then please give examples.

If you believe the big bang popped into existence out of nowhere then why is it so hard to believe a being popped into existence out of nowhere?

The reason he made the universe so big is so that we would always have more we could explore and discover. If we already knew everything that has to do with the universe then there would be almost no point in life.

Again, if God were to be real, I still wouldn't know why he put us next to a star that would explode, so that argument is irrelevant and invalid.

I have explained the last part, so I hope you understand what I meant by this.
Posted by CrypticIndividual 1 year ago
CrypticIndividual
@Surgeon Funny that you make so many claims yet never manage to show an example for any of them. I never said they are unique either way, it is just that I have never seen a proper response given to them and you haven't given one either.
Posted by Surgeon 1 year ago
Surgeon
@Crypticindividual

Really?! Biblical prophecies are about as convincing as Nostradamus. Infact tbh Nostradamus has a better track record, just take the first gospel...right off the bat the Jesus figure can't even predict his own 'return'.

There is nothing specific or unique or even whimsical in your claims. This is just you retrofitting stuff you find convenient onto bible versus which ....er vaguely sound a bit like ...er what you want to claim them for. This is not at all impressive. TBH this is so weak I didn't think it merited a response, but clearly you are convinced.
Posted by CrypticIndividual 1 year ago
CrypticIndividual
@Surgeon You seem to be avoiding the prophecy argument entirely.

@Dawn First of all, using words that people often describe god as and saying that those words would be illogical to be used isn't evidence against god, though it is a fair point. As people, we do not know god's plan nor how he does things, meaning that we don't know what he knows is going to happen and what he doesn't know is going to happen.
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