The Instigator
Republicrat20
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
Thoht
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

God is real

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Post Voting Period
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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/26/2018 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,671 times Debate No: 119613
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (24)
Votes (0)

 

Republicrat20

Pro

I am going to be arguing the fact that God does indeed exist. My opponent is expected to provide arguments that disprove his existence. I am very excited about this debate.

I like my debates to be organized so please follow suit!

Round 1- Acceptance/Greetings. This round can also be used for anything you want to clarify.
NO ARGUMENTS IN ROUND ONE Thanks!

Round 2- Opening argument

Round 3- Rebuttals

Round 4- Closing arguments

To whoever accepts this debate please ensure that we keep it respectful and somewhat professional. Thank you so much for accepting!

****I understand that nobody can neither prove nor disprove the existence of God. However we will do our best to provide arguments that show evidence of either the existence of God, Or in my opponent case, The lack thereof.
Thoht

Con

Happy to think with you today,

I accept.

Also as a point of emphasis on our clarification, No one can disprove the existence of God if one does not exist. If a God existed one should certainly be able to prove it.

In a similar fashion, I can't disprove the existence of unicorns, Nor can you. If they existed it then evidence would exist for them, Even if we have not found it yet.

That being said, No one believes in unicorns without evidence. For some reason, People have chosen to believe in God with no evidence. God is a solution that fits the bill and explains certain things. God is a possible solution to these, But nothing proves that God IS the solution.

Coming into this topic, Your burden of proof is impossible, And mine is the conclusion you arrive at for everything else you have no evidence for.

I'd love to see your arguments for believing in something with no evidence.

May your thoughts be clear,

-Thoht
Debate Round No. 1
Republicrat20

Pro

I understand that to you, There is no evidence of God. However, If you look around the universe you can see how every single little detail is perfectly made. For instance, If the sun was 3 feet closer to us, We would all burn to a crisp, If it were just 3 feet away, We would all turn into instant icicles. Our DNA and genetic codes are all perfect. Everything on the earth points to the fact that there is a creator.

Now many atheist wonder how God exists. If everything must have a creator wouldn't the creator had to have been created? The answer is No. Let me explain this to y'all.

The universe is made up into four components. Matter, Time, Space, And Energy. They are all manifestations of eachother meaning they all coincide with one another and rely on each other. Without space, We couldn't have matter. Without Matter we couldn't have energy and so on and so forth.

The universe is bound by these four components.
We are all made of matter, We all need energy to survive, We need space to be able to exist, And we are also bound by time, Meaning we must be born and we must also die.

Imagine you are baking a cake. The cake needs flour, Sugar, Water, Oil, And eggs. Without these five components a cake would not be a cake. The cake NEEDS these 5 components to exist. However, Do you need flour and water and eggs to exist? No! Because you're not a cake. You are not bound by these components because you are the creator of the cake!

You see God created the universe. He created Matter, Time, Space, And energy. He doesn't need space and energy to survive because he created space and energy. He isn't bound by time so he has always existed and will always exist. He doesn't have to have a physical form because he is not bound by matter.

It is really hard for a human to wrap their minds around God's omnipotent existence because the four components he created that we are bound by is all we've ever known.

The fact the we have a creator who perfectly placed us and everything around us is way more plausible than everything magically happening by a giant explosion.

Just to add to the debate, I believe in God because I've seen his miracles. I knew a woman who had cancer tumors in her lungs. Hundreds of churches prayed for her and the cancer completely disappeared. She hadn't even started treatment. As a waitress I remember my rent being due on Tuesday. I went to work on Monday 300 dollars short. I begged God for a miracle. I went home with $300 that night. I've seen so many prayers answered there is no doubt in mind that there is a God up there answering them.

He loves you and he wants to change your life. You don't have to understand everything, You just have to have a tiny bit of faith. In the Bible it says that the faith of a mustard seed can move mountains. He will reveal himself to you, But you must first take a step of faith.

I promise you won't regret it!

***I typed really fast, Please so your best to look over spelling and grammar errors!
Thoht

Con

There is a lot to go over here.

1. It would take a lot more than 3 feet closer or further away from the sun to have any kind of significant difference on us. The Earth's orbit around the sun is an oval, Or ellipse. How close we are to the sun varies by around 3 million miles depending on the time of year. This is part of what causes the different seasons. There is a thing called the Goldilock's zone around every star. This is the zone in which life can exist. Not too cold, Not too hot. This is not a point in God's favor. We've found thousands of planets at this point that are in the Goldilock zone around their stars. You can wikipedia Circumstellar Habitable Zone if you'd like more on ths.

2. Our DNA is not perfect. We have thousands if not millions of errors that can occur. Cancer, Trisomy 21 (Downs Syndrome), Alzheimers syndrome, Crohn's disease, Et cetera. The existence of these errors is proof that we are not created perfectly. These errors are not simply caused by humans or the mother's choice of food et cetera. These are genetic errors. If the fault is anyone's it is God's, Were he to exist. If he did exist, He would need to explain these diseases to those he has inflicted with them. Nothing in our genes points to a creator, Certainly not an omniscient or infallible one.

3. I don't believe your education in physics is sufficient for me to accept what you've said on the 'four components of the universe. ' In fact several points I know to be false from what physics I've taken. I'm going to need your source on this before I accept it as any sort of point. Either way, Nothing you've said proves that God could have sprung from nothing by himself. The argument theists use is "Everything that is created has a creator. " or "everything that is designed has a designer. " They of course try many approaches to except their God from this, Saying he is not a design. In your analogy, You are comparing the creation of the universe to the cooking of a cake. Where did I get the ingredients for the cake from? The outside world. I didn't poof them into existence from nothing. Where did God get the ingredients for the universe? He poofed them into existence from nothing. This is the flaw in your argument. From nothing, God. I can draw the line to my creation quite far back, But then I admit I have no idea what happened previously. Your position is that you know exactly what happened. That God necessarily existed prior to the creation of the universe. It doesn't hold water. From whence did God come? This question is not answered by saying "He had to. " This is an argument that would work for ANY God. Not only yours. You wouldn't accept it for any other religion. Why should I accept it from you for yours?

4. God is not omnipotent. There is always a limit. Omnipotence, Omniscience, Omnibenevolence, None of these traits are possibilities. Nothing has them. If you believe God is omnipotent then he must be able to create an object that he cannot move. If he can't move that object, He is not omnipotent. It is logically impossible. The problem is you're trying to use logic to prove to us that God must exist while suspending logic when it comes to God's attributes or his beginning.

5. The Big Bang did not create the universe. This is a point people don't seem to understand. There was something before the Big Bang. We aren't entirely sure what it was. There are plenty of theories. The problem is Time didn't exist, Supposedly, Previous to the big bang. But the universe certainly did. My personal opinion on it is that we will develop a theory better than the Big Bang in due time, But that doesn't change that it explains everything that happened AFTER that. The simple fact is we don't know what happened BEFORE that because the question doesn't even make sense. The Big Bang is NOT an explanation for how the universe came to exist. It is an explanation for the last several billion years. Not what came before. It is a common misconception that people have that we're saying the universe came to be because it banged itself into existence. We're saying there was a big bang, And we have no idea what happened before that. Inserting God into the equation only brings up more problems. From whence did God come? If you think God is infinite and always has been, Why can we not say that the universe is infinite and always has been?

There are multiple good theories on this. One is that the universe has big bangs and big crunches in a cycle. One is that we are all in a simulation. It is in fact somewhat likely that this IS a simulation and that the being that created our simulation is effectively our God, But that would not be the God you are supposing, And I would not define that as a God, Although as close to one as is likely to exist.

6. Remission is an understood phenomena. We have immune systems. They sometimes work, Believe it or not. When you get sick and don't take medicine is it a miracle that you recover? Remission is not fully understood, But has occurred in atheists and people across every religion praying all to different gods or none at all. Why is the remission and prayers sent to your particular God more convincing than all the other prayers sent to all the other gods, Or none at all? Believe it or not, Religious people have the same rates of remission than non religious people.

There have been studies done showing results when groups of people have prayed for something to occur and when they have not. Prayers have let to no improvement on the odds of recovery over large studies. In some cases, Those prayed for actually fared worse.

How many times have you prayed and not got what you wanted or needed? Do you think the Christian women murdered in the Crusades got what they prayed for when they were raped and slain by other Christian men?

7. God has much to answer for, If he exists, Before I could come to accepting him as a neutral entity, Much less a good one. He would have created me knowing that I would never accept him for the disease he has allowed to exist. For the evils he has allowed to exist, That he did in fact create. Any God that exists should be fought. If it takes millennia, Billions, Quadrillions of years, Any God that exists should be wiped from the face of existence. That, Or he had better have some damned good explanations. He owes humanity explanations from all the wars that have arisen because he wouldn't come down here and clarify this quickly. For all the families he has torn asunder, For all the hearts he has broken from failing to step in when people were killed, Often slowly. For allowing his creation to degenerate and suffer. One who denies the needless suffering of humans who have done nothing to bring that suffering upon themselves is living a life of privilege beyond compare.

To conclude,

You have presented a case for God. I cannot present a case for a being's nonexistence, But I can and have answered the points you bring up for its existence and I attempt to show you how they are not points that favor the existence of a god. To go beyond proving a God's existence and to say that YOU have the correct God you would need to answer me why religious people from other religions seem to have the same experience and confidence in their god's existence and efficacy that you have in yours. The same belief in the miracles of their deity. Even when they are clearly in violation of one of the ten commandments of your God that no nonbeliever is guilty of breaking.

If it exists, God has wrought all the diseases that plague mankind. He is not responsible for the Earth being habitable. You can argue he set off the Big Bang, But not that it did not occur. If it did occur, He has no responsibility for it. If you argue he knew it would end up like this after he Banged, You have to admit humans have no free will. He could have created any universe. He knew what would happen before he created it.

Do you think no better universe could exist?

-Thoht
Debate Round No. 2
Republicrat20

Pro

You have brought some very interesting ideas to my attention and I greatly appreciate it! However I have to disagree with you on some things. I have put your arguments in parenthesis and my Rebuttals below them.

"It would take a lot more than 3 feet closer or further away from the sun to have any kind of significant difference on us. "

I am going to have to disagree with you on this. There is evidence that there would be drastic changes to the Earth's surface if the sun were even a fraction closer or further away. If you're interested here is a link to a video clip from a science channel supporting my claims.

https://youtu. Be/V-b5TH4RD9w

"Our DNA is not perfect. We have thousands if not millions of errors that can occur. Cancer, Trisomy 21 (Downs Syndrome), Alzheimers syndrome, Crohn's disease, Et cetera. "

I understand that sometimes there are flaws in our DNA on occasion. I believe these flaws are caused by mutations. Mutations are most likely
A result of the fall of man. This just further disproves evolution. If evolution were correct our DNA would be evolving and becoming less flawed. Instead, It is constantly mutating and causing genetic defects day after day. However, Our DNA was once perfect and flawless. What I was trying to argue was that we all have a pattern. We all have 2 eyes, 2 ears, One nose, Etc.

"In fact several points I know to be false from what physics I've taken"

You claim to know that my argument is false but failed to explain further or provide evidence. Doing so would help your argument that what I am saying is not true. However, I don't think you can. If you think about it, Our universe IS bound by the four components (matter, Time, Space, And energy) Now I don't have a link to share with you because I got this idea from a very well educated, Christian scientist at a lecture of his. I received my degree from a Christian college and I also studied physics.

"You are comparing the creation of the universe to the cooking of a cake. Where did I get the ingredients for the cake from? The outside world. I didn't poof them into existence from nothing. Where did God get the ingredients for the universe? "

I am a human who is bound by matter. This means I must have matter in order to create matter. God is not bound by matter. The Bible says that when he made the universe he merely spoke it into existence. You see, He isn't bound by matter because he created it. That is how powerful my God is.

"Your position is that you know exactly what happened. That God necessarily existed prior to the creation of the universe. It doesn't hold water. From whence did God come? "

I never claimed to know exactly what happened. Nobody knows. I do, However, Believe the Christian Bible which gives me a pretty good idea. There may even be more to it than that. I just know when I received salvation, I began to just trust God. I didn't understand exactly what or who God was but I felt his presence. That was really all I needed. Every human on this planet had a beginning. Furthermore, Every human on this planet will receive one death. This is due to the fact we are bound by time. It is very hard for us to comprehend the fact that God has always existed because all we know is everything must have a beginning. However God is not bound by time because God created time.

"God is not omnipotent. There is always a limit. Omnipotence, Omniscience, Omnibenevolence, None of these traits are possibilities. "

God is very powerful. He is the creator of the universe. You say it is not possible for something to be omnipotent because you are a human without the slightest amount of faith. I am not intending any disrespect whatsoever. However if you were to take the smallest leap of faith and trust God, He will reveal himself to you. I remember a story in the Bible where a woman had a deadly ailment. Jesus came through her town and there was a crowd of people following him. She did her best to fight through the crowd to get to Jesus. She finally was able to reach the end of his garment and touched it. She was instantly healed. All you have to do is just grab on to Jesus, Just a little. You just have to have a small amount of faith. It will change your life.

"The Big Bang did not create the universe. This is a point people don't seem to understand. There was something before the Big Bang. We aren't entirely sure what it was. There are plenty of theories. "

I wish you would have elaborated more on this so I know what to research. I LOVE researching things about how the Earth's was created. However, You seem very unsure about everything. By there being so many theories just further proves that scientist have absolutely no clue. Everything on this Earth points to a creator.

"Remission is an understood phenomena. We have immune systems"

I understand that this may happen on occasion. What I was trying to explain was that she went to the doctor and was told that she had a tumor the size of a baseball in her lungs. 3 weeks later after hundreds of churches were praying for her, The doctors were astonished that the tumor had completely disappeared without treatment. A tumor that size just evaporating in that short amount of time is nothing short of a miracle.

"Believe it or not, Religious people have the same rates of remission than non religious people. "

I am not going to argue with you on this because the Bible says God rains on the just as well as the unjust. However, Seeing prayers answered definitely breeds faith. Once a small seed of faith is planted God can change a person's life.

"How many times have you prayed and not got what you wanted or needed? "

I have prayed many times. God has NEVER once failed to answer my prayers. The answer isn't always what I wanted it to be. For instance, I begged God to let me win the 1. 6 billion mega millions drawing last month and I didn't win it. Perhaps God knew the money would ruin me? However I also prayed for a job promotion that same week and received it. I may have not always received what I wanted but he has never once failed to provide for my needs. I could never explain why God lets terrible things happen to people, But he is God and I have learned to not question him anymore. He knows what he is doing.

"God has much to answer for"

I used to think this too. I've been assaulted and abused. Lied to and cheated on. I've been hurt over and over. It wasn't until recently I realized these events have made me stronger. I am more aware of my surroundings and I have faith he will protect me. I am a better person all around and I believe God is real and he is perfect. We don't understand why he allows the things he does but chaos breeds miracles. Maybe it is what it takes to bring non-believers to him?

Now, There are accusations in the comments that I am unintelligent. You should know that English is not my first language and I am fluent in 3. I can also hold a conversation in two others. I have a bachelor's degree and I am currently making 3 figures. I am 20 years old.
(This is not directed to my opponent who I am honored to be able to have a debate with. )
Thoht

Con

The link you posted doesn't disagree with me. When an astronomer says "a little bit" that is generally millions of miles if not more. When Dr. Kaku says "a fraction of its distance. " That means millions of miles. Nowhere in there does it say 3 feet. If you listen closely you will see no real numbers were given. The Earth is 95 million miles give or take from the sun. A tiny fraction of this is millions of miles. You'll find no credible scientist that disagrees. Your link does not.

Mutations are humanity's fault? Can you edit your own personal genes to assure your children won't have genetic defects? The defective rate amongst christians is also the same as other religions and the same as nonbelievers.

You have no evidence to support the statement "Our DNA was once perfect and flawless. " All of science shows we have more humble origins. Please cite your evidence for this claim. Our eyes function horribly in comparison to the eyes of just about any bird. Our nose would be seen as a horrifying defect for any dog. Cats and bats laugh at our inability to see things in the dark as well as how poorly we hear. You have no points in your favor here.

Evolution doesn't guarantee that our DNA magically always gets better. Mutations occur. The mutations that make us worse off will typically die more often than the mutations that make us better off. There are hundreds of thousands of years and many deaths through many generations and many horrifying mutations before humanity gets improvements. Your speculative opinion when you don't clearly understand what evolution is and the evidence for it is not evidence that disproves evolution. Do you think God faked all the fossils and skeletons we find that show mutations over time?

There's no room in this argument for me to explain the four fundamental forces of nature, (Gravity, Electromagnetism, Strong and Weak nuclear forces) and I may not even be qualified to, But saying Time, Energy/Matter, And Space are fundamental forces or 'components' is extremely naive, And at best an oversimplification. To speculate that your one christian scientist holds all the definitive answers to the universe when no physicist would make the claim that we understand completely how the universe works is also a false claim. Neither you or I are qualified in a physics conversation, And it shows.

"God is not bound by matter"

You have no evidence to support this claim besides the Bible. You can't use the Bible to prove the Bible is true. I can write a book that confirms that it is true and write anything I want in it.

"Every human on this planet will receive one death. This is due to the fact we are bound by time. "

Medical science is advancing. It won't be all that long before we can sustain our lives permanently, Barring extreme injury or disease, And even those may be cured with time. There is nothing that makes us think otherwise. The human body dies due to degeneration rather than any death-bond with time. There's nothing specific about time that makes us die. It is the human body's inability to repair itself. People who die of "old age" aren't dying because they are old. It is typically organ failure, Lessening ability to fight off diseases, Et cetera. Time is not the cause of death. There is no reason to believe we will not be able to repair our bodies. The ability to live forever doesn't mean we're defying Time. It is our bodies that we are in war with. It makes no sense to say we die due to being "bound by time. "

"God is not bound by time. "

You have no evidence for this statement.

"God is very powerful" is a perfectly fine statement. Doesn't prove his existence, But it is NOT omnipotence. Believing in omnipotence is simply illogical. You can't refute the statement I used to disprove it. You can say he is powerful but there is a number to it, However large. There is a limit.

"You seem very unsure about everything. By there being so many theories just further proves that sceintists have absolutely no clue. Everything on this Earth points to a creator. "

I am unsure about everything because I have insufficient evidence to prove one way or another. There are many theories, But they are all based on facts that we have 'proven. ' Scientists have plenty of clues. That doesn't mean we can definitively say what is true. My problem is you are NOT unsure. You claim to know all of this. You do not. No one does.

A creator is a possible solution, No one denies this. You have no evidence to prove that it IS the solution. All you have done to prove your stance is say "Have a bit of faith. " While simultaneously saying "you are incapable of faith. " It is curious isn't it, That your God would create so many humans who don't value faith at all while simultaneously requiring them to have faith to reveal himself to them. It is curious that he made me, Supposedly, With absolutely no means of ever learning of him, Isn't it? If the inability to believe something with no evidence sends me to eternal punishment, Then it will have been God's own fault that I face eternal torment. You can't explain to me why he would do this. It is abhorrent. If he exists and requires faith to reveal himself and requires belief in him to avoid eternal damnation and he creates beings who put no value on faith he has doomed all of us before we exited our mother's wombs. This would make him immoral.

I can't take your miracle remission scenario on faith alone. It seems if this story were true and it were actually a miracle it would have been confirmed and your churches would be publishing all the documentation of this case for everyone to see. It would convert many people and save them from eternal damnation. Why do you think your churches do not do so? If they do, By all means give me a link. You may well convince me to be Christian. All I really need is a bit of evidence. This is all atheists have ever asked for. If an explanation was given, Hopefully you don't wave the explanation away saying medical doctors have no idea what they're talking about. There's a reason you go to the hospital instead of praying when you are having a stroke or heart attack.

If God can answer your prayers by not answering your prayers then there really is no evidence that would make you reconsider your position. I just hope you think of all the Christian women that prayed hard to not get raped and murdered where God answered their prayers by allowing their rapists and murderers to do what they will. Some rapists and murderers never being caught. If you think their prayers were sufficiently answered there is really not much I can say to dissuade you. God is perfect because you have defined him to be so, Not because reality shows it to be so. Maybe there is a 50th dimension chess going on here where allowing the rape of women, The starvation of children, And endless suffering around the world to go on is 'good. ' Maybe there is an argument for this. This is why God has explaining to do, Were he to exist. Until a sufficient argument is given to me, I cannot believe a good entity watches over us. Hopefully you understand the point of view.

Do you think women who were murdered are stronger for it? People who contract MRSA infections? My wife will never run again. Is she stronger for it? She loved being able to move normally. Do you think children who are stumped due to malnutrition who eventually die of starvation are stronger for it? For all either of us knows, Maybe they are! Again, God would need to explain this to me. You have no argument to prove it is so. You are operating on faith and guesses. As we stated earlier, I have no faith. I was born with none. I value reality. I value saving women from being raped. I value feeding starving children. I value eliminating degeneration and disease. I value reducing human suffering. Nothing shows me your God values the same things. Why would I value him, Even if he did exist? He does not save women from fires.

May your thoughts be clear,

-Thoht
Debate Round No. 3
Republicrat20

Pro

In this Round I am not going to quote your arguments for the sake of saving on my word count. However, I will make it very clear to which of your points I am responding to.

Unfortunately, I made a mistake when I stated that if the earth were just three feet closer to the sun, It would cause a drastic change in our planet's temperature. In fact, Like my opponent said, It would take the Earth shifting a few million miles for the Earth's surface to be completely transformed. Nevertheless, This is still a VERY small amount compared to the total distance between the earth and the sun as well as to the rest of the universe. While I was negligent in not making sure this detail was correct, My case in point remains the same. --The Earth is just the right distance from the sun, Making it habitable, And ensuring that we are able to survive on it.
The idea that the Earth simply "fell into place" by accident is 100% impractical. There are many other examples that show our planet is an intelligent and perfect design.
For instance, "The earth's axis of rotation is tilted 231/2 degrees relative to the perpendicular of the earth's plane of orbit" (Institute for a Creation Research). As I'm sure you're well aware, This tilt results in the four seasons. If the tilt did not exist, The surface temperature at any point on the Earth would remain the exact same throughout the year. The Earth's climate would become extreme in the equatorial areas as well as the poles and only the mid-latitudes would be habitable to humans. You are telling me that it is a mere coincidence the earth is tilted at just the right angle so that human life is sustainable on nearly its entire surface?
Furthermore, I would like to add that the Earth is also perfect in size, Also indicating intelligent design. "The Earth's size and corresponding gravity holds a thin layer of mostly nitrogen and oxygen gases, Only extending about 50 miles above the Earth's surface" (Every Student). Unlike the other planets, Earth is equipped with an atmosphere composed of just the right mixture of gases needed to sustain life as we know it. The existence of our atmosphere would not be possible if Earth were larger or smaller.

You see, The distance from the Earth to the sun was just one of many examples showing that our universe was created perfect in order for our planet to have everything we need to survive.

Ilya Prigogine was a chemist-physicist and recipient of two Nobel Prizes in chemistry. She wrote: "The statistical probability that organic structures and the most precisely harmonized reactions that typify living organisms would be generated by accident, Is zero. "

"After scientists discovered the vast complexities of the DNA code, And that these codes are to be found in even the most simple forms of life, They started to see "scary visions of a God""(Waldman, 270).

I stand by my previous argument that human DNA and our genetic code was perfect in the beginning. I am stating that based on the common Christian knowledge that humans were perfect before Adam and Eve disobeyed God in the Garden of Eden, Also known as the fall of man. This is when man's curse began which is most likely the beginning of genetic mutations. So in an essence yes, Genetic mutations are humanity's fault as God didn't intend for it to be that way.
"Every time human DNA is passed from one generation to the next it accumulates 100"200 new mutations, According to a DNA-sequencing analysis of the Y chromosome" (International weekly journal of Science). This right here pokes a huge hole in evolution. If we are truly evolving shouldn't we be breeding up? Instead, Our DNA is constantly mutating and becoming more flawed. I understand that evolutionists have an idea that there are "beneficial genetic mutations". However, From what I understand there are very, Very few compared to the harmful mutations. You also claim that harmful mutations will die off faster than beneficial mutations but I found zero evidence supporting your claim.
Now, In response to your rebuttal- No, I do not think I can alter my genes to ensure my offspring doesn't have genetic defects. And No, I do not think other religions and Atheists have a higher defective rate.

No, I do not think God faked fossils that showed mutations. However, It is interesting you should bring up the fossil record. Could you explain this one to me?
"One of the most powerful pieces of evidence against evolution is the fossil record. If evolution occurred by slow, Minute changes in living creatures, There would be thousands of times more transitional forms of these creatures in the fossil beds than complete forms. Since the billions of fossils that have been found are all complete forms, The obvious conclusion is: Evolution never occurred! " (Creation Today).

You are absolutely correct in the fact that I cannot definitively prove God is not bound by matter or time just as I cannot definitively prove God's existence. I can only make arguments for why I believe it to be true. I only use the Bible as a reference because it holds the basic principles of my religion. There are many things I cannot prove because they require faith to understand. This is the way God intended it to be and there is nothing I can say to change that.

While I can only agree that medical science is advancing. I disagree with your statement that one day humans will be able to live forever. Another result of the fall of man is that we will all receive one death. Every human in the past has died and every human in the future will die as well.

I don't understand why God allows terrible things to happen. I do know God gives every person free will. I don't understand why he allows people to do terrible things to other people. I don't understand why he allows some children to starve or allows people to die of cancer. However, I do know prayer works. There are children who are starving that get adopted from 3rd world countries who thank God for rescuing them. There are people who beat the worst odds that give all of the credit to God. Hearing about women (and men for that matter) being raped and murdered is something that makes me absolutely sick. I get really angry when I hear about women in other countries being treated like animals. But you know what there's also sexual assault survivors who thank God for giving them the strength to overcome their abuse. I was assaulted by a co-worker I was closing with one night. I wasn't raped because I was able to break free and get outside. I was a pretty rebellious teenager too but God still protected me. I was also able to prevent it from happening to other girls by pressing charges and letting everyone know what he was. Instead of looking at all the bad you feel God allows to happen. Consider all the people he has saved and all the prayers he has answered!

It was a pleasure debating you!
Thoht

Con

1. It's not that the Earth 'fell into place. ' There are thousands of habitable worlds throughout the observable universe. Untold numbers. Every star you see in the sky could easily have planets in the habitable zone. It's nearly impossible for life to not exist somewhere else in our galaxy, Much less the universe. We have several other planets in our solar system. We weren't born on Mercury or Mars simply because we couldn't have been born there. Life can spring forth from planets that were formed in the habitable zone. Millions of miles is a small number in terms of solar systems, But planets being fomed in the habitable zone is not a special occurrence in the universe, Nor even terribly unlikely.

2. The axial tilt of the planet is also not that uncommon. 3 or 4 other planets in our solar system have similar axial tilts. On top of that you say it yourself: If the Earth had no axial tilt we still would have habitable areas on the planet. I'm not sure what you're going for here. Humans were not designed to live on the poles. All the tilt does is expand the habitable area on our planet. There is no evidence that you can give that were we to be born on a planet with no axial tilt we wouldn't have armored skin or be able to endure the heat. Certainly, If God existed he could make it so, And we would say that we were a superior creation to what we are now. None of this is evidence for God. It is just another fact of life, If not an argument against its existence. We could just as easily have lived on a planet where 80% of it was not habitable and you'd use a similar argument. "Thank God 20% of our planet is habitable. " We can't live on the water Oceans are 70% of the area of the Earth. The poles are not easily habitable. You can say about 75% of the total area of the earth is unlivable. I have no idea why you feel this is also a point in God's favor. Why did he not allow us to breathe underwater? Why not enable us to live in cold or hot environments? Why breathe at all?

3. Earth's size is also nothing special in the universe. We can include it as a factor if it really is true that it HAS to be within a certain range of sizes to have our atmosphere, But life can exist in more forms than we know. Many creatures don't require the atmosphere we have to live. You have no way of showing life doesn't exist in many other forms. There are theoretical silicone based lifeforms that would need entirely different atmospheres. Humans began to exist on this rock. That doesn't mean this rock was tailored to our needs. It means that those creatures that were born not suited to live here died. Think of the hundreds of malformed children that are born without the structures required to live. They die. There is nothing to prove that the world was created for us. There is every evidence in fossil records to show that we created our structures to suit our environments.

Everything that was necessary for life to exist can be found elsewhere in the universe. That we happened to be born here is not some sort of miracle or proof for a God. It is proof that where the conditions are right for life to spring forth, It will. Nothing guaranteed that we would be here. If the dinosaurs had not gone extinct we likely would not be. None of this is proof for a God, Much less the one you profess to exist. There is no talk about axial tilts in the Bible. There is no talk about God placing the sun in just the right spot for life to exist. There is no talk about God sizing the earth properly. Are you saying God could not possibly create life on a larger planet with no axial tilt and not in the habitable zone? Of course he could. These arguments do nothing to prove your point. They only reinforce my own position.

4. 90% of the top scientists in the world don't believe in a deity of any sort. About 10% do. Do we really want to get in a quote war over this? If we're taking the opinion of top scientists then I can have 9 for every 1 you produce. There's a pretty good chance that 10% don't even agree with your god in the first place.

5. Again, If Adam and Eve didn't have "knowledge" already they could not have known that eating from the Apple was bad. God could have prevented this easily. God knew the snake existed. How did he expect Eve to know any better with no knowledge? It's a ridiculous stance to take that someone who could not possibly know better should be expected to know better and that not only her but ALL of humanity after her should be punished for it. After that, Jesus supposedly died for our sins, Yet the perfect DNA you have no evidence for has not sprung back into life magically afterwards. It is odd, Is it not?

There can be as many harmful mutations as you'd like. There are tons. People die of cancer all over the place. Anemia is common, Et cetera. Children die of terminal defects all the time. This is where mutations that are harmful enough die off. Many beneficial mutations die off because the same person has mutations that are 'bad' enough to get them killed, Or they're just unlucky. We're talking about hundreds of millions of years of where those with bad mutations are likely to die and those with good mutations are likely to live. You keep pointing to the evidence for evolution and calling it evidence against it. I can't say I understand the viewpoint. Evolution isn't even something that disproves your God. All you have to say is that God started it.

6. You're linking me a quote from a creationist article saying there is a problem with fossils? You really ought to study sources from both sides. I have read much of answers in genesis. I have seen Ken Ham debate and I have seen Richard Dawkins debate. There are numerous transitional forms of fossils. A plethora. An abundance. I encourage you to look up the evidence for yourself. Homo erectus, Neanderthals, Etc up to homo sapiens. The transitional forms not existing is a lie cooked up by creationists. I'd need a more specific claim to be able to point to exact fossils certainly. But even the fossils we do have, If your point were entirely true, Show that humanity has improved over time, Not devolved. In reality, The position that you've taken is "De-Evolution. " You're saying that the further we get from Adam and Eve the more we devolve. You have zero evidence for this, Compared to the clear fossil record that shows improvements.

7. It's cool that you don't believe we can repair our bodies, But lifespans have clearly been extending as medical science improves. Life expectancy largely has increased due to it, But that is a bit of a different matter. There is nothing you can point to to show we won't be able to repair our bodies. You don't seem to have a clear understanding of how people die of "old age" currently.

8. Prayer doesn't work. Look up "efficacy of prayer" and "studies on intercessory prayer" on wikipedia. It has effectively been disproven that prayer works.

Again, I note that you failed to respond to my question of why doesn't your church publish the results of this miracle? I submit because there was none. That is the only logical explanation. Why keep the proof of miracles all to yourself?

9. People give God all the credit for good things that happen to them and none of the blame for the bad things that happen to them. They tend to blame "the devil, " which is also God's creation that he could stop at any time, Or they do what you did and say there's a reason they're being punished, Or that what is happening is good for them. This keeps women in abusive homes. It is abhorrent.

To conclude,

You don't know why God allows terrible things to occur. You don't know the justifications for him allowing evil. You don't know why he created evil in the first place. You don't assign him blame for all the terrible occurrences, But all the credit for the good.

Your entire argument is and has been a faith position. If only we would accept that there is a God we would believe in him.

Faith is no virtue.

-Thoht
Debate Round No. 4
24 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Roi 3 years ago
Roi
Pro - you have no evidence that suggests that the prayers are in any way related to the disappearance of the tumor. If there was a relationship then I guarantee you that the number of tumors in this world would be a hell of a lot smaller.
Posted by backwardseden 3 years ago
backwardseden
Or better yet. . . Why would god if loving kind and caring ---ever---, For any reason, Create someone with "One day she found out she had a tumor in her lungs between the size of a golf ball and a baseball to deliberately suffer? But its worse than that with smallpox, Influenza, The bubonic plague etc etc etc. And in the end, You would still have to prove that your god exists. And why rest that blame of that supposed miracle that you've prayed for on god? And why only "one"? Why couldn't it be something else entirely?
Posted by Thoht 3 years ago
Thoht
Why wouldn't churches want to prove to everyone that miracles exist?

My claim isn't that you're a liar, It is that you are wrong or mistaken about what really occurred.

If the goal of churches is to save our eternal souls, It seems to go against that primary responsibility to not post the most convincing evidence that could possibly exist and spread it as far as they can.

I can't simply "take your word" in a debate. I can accept that you think it is true, But I can't accept that it IS true without proof.

This isn't an insult to you. It is an insult to your church if medical doctors actually thought that it happened as you say.
Posted by Republicrat20 3 years ago
Republicrat20
@Thoht I must respond to this
"I note that you failed to respond to my question of why doesn't your church publish the results of this miracle? I submit because there was none. That is the only logical explanation"

This isn't just some random thing that happened to a random person. I know her very well. Her daughter and I became best friends shortly after I moved to America and I practically lived with her. . . She was like a second mother to me. One day she found out she had a tumor in her lungs between the size of a golf ball and a baseball. 3 weeks later it was gone. Churches all over the country had been praying for her. I am not sure why you believe that the church had to write a book about it? Or even publish it at all. I remember our preacher talking about it in his sermon but why you are soooo keyed in on reading about it is what I don't understand. Maybe there was something written about it? It was just an example of Gods power. There are thousands of examples of miracles. This is just one I personally witnessed. And you basically called me a liar. I made a mistake trying to explain a few details about the earth, But I'm not going to outright lie about events I witnessed. Come on. That was very insulting.

Other than that you are a very intelligent individual and it was honor debating with you.

Until next time,
20
Posted by Republicrat20 3 years ago
Republicrat20
Cool. Thanks
Posted by Thoht 3 years ago
Thoht
As far as sources go, Most can be found with quick google search.

I would start with the youtube channel:

"Kurzgesagt " In a Nutshell"

He tries to make advanced scientific concepts consumable for laypeople like myself. While I do understand the concepts to some extent, Being a teacher of other subjects I'm quite hesitant to try to do the deed myself.
Posted by Thoht 3 years ago
Thoht
I did elaborate a bit. Here's a bit more.

1. Multiple Big Bangs and Big Crunches
2. Our universe is a simulation (probably the most probable, Similar to Brain in a Vat, Matrix, Et cetera)
3. Parallel worlds/multiverse
4. You are God. Your reality is a delusion you have made to prevent yourself from going insane, Or because you are insane. Can God fool his/her/itsself?
5. Reality has multiple dimensions we cannot perceive, Making us ants to higher dimensional beings. Our intelligence would not be significant enough to hold a conversation, Or whatever their equivalent of it is.
6. Our world and planets and sun are protons, Electronics, And neutrons of an atom in a universe infinitely larger than our own. There are civilizations infinitely smaller than our own in every electron, Proton, Neutron, Et cetera. Or perhaps we are the smallest.

Human perception of reality is incredibly flawed. We cannot sense hundreds of different things we would benefit from. We cannot measure things accurately by default. We die and injure easily. These are not the markings of beings created by perfection or because of perfection.

Humans grow more intelligent over the course of generations. Our ancestors were idiots in comparison to high school graduates nowadays. We can even see the differences from one generation to another. There is no proof that we are degenerating, Becoming weaker, Et cetera over the course of generations as we would certainly see if your claim were true. That we all originated from perfect DNA and due to our own weakness (not god's of course) we have been degenerating from there.

Did God create Eve knowing she would bite from the apple of knowledge? Did he watch her do so? If she had no knowledge or morality before taking the bite, How would she have even known to follow his directions, Or how such a thing would be good? How would she know which apples to avoid? How did God not see the snake in the garden and stop it? How was it Adam's fault?
Posted by Republicrat20 3 years ago
Republicrat20
@Thoht If you want you can post in the comments the different theories on how the universe was created and the sources to it. I enjoy researching them and trying to match different details with the Bible. It is sort of a project I'm working on. I also want to know what the other side believes. No one will ever convince me there is no God. Reason being after I took the leap of faith and trusted him I had an encounter with him. It is just too amazing and that is all the convincing I will ever need. I do enjoy learning what Athiests believe though, Whether I agree or not.
Posted by backwardseden 3 years ago
backwardseden
"How would I set a "max elo for the voting range and dsjkp5 will never be able to vote on my debates? ""

"Hopefully your decades of experience prior to me taking my first breath can help you figure that one out. " I don't pretend to know something I don't know anything about.

"For the record my second post was made because I didn't notice you made two posts, And sought to reply to what little non ad hominems you included in the first post. " Excuses excuses. No. You just wanted to blow off your bloated ego god complex of anger because dare you do it with your opponent in which you rightly should because she is a first class minced mutton moron who posted false completely inaccurate excuses that obviously took no research, Scientifically speaking that a five year old would know, And proved just how unintelligent and unedumacated her type of humanoid truly is. And you have every right to be angry, P**sed, Enraged at her because she committed the ultimate sin. Wait for it. . . She insulted your intelligence. And if not, You are in the wrong class of debates.

And now its time for me to go to beddy bye. And I sleep for a good day. Nighty night.
Posted by backwardseden 3 years ago
backwardseden
"My word alone is not evidence for anything. " Well then don't pretend that it is. And don't knock others for bringing in other evidence to support evidence. What part of that don't you understand?

"Statistics/studies can be used in debates. These ARE evidence. " Well 'which way did he go George' give the man a burnt rubber cigar for his laundromat brain. Yah really think that the quotes and vides presented are NOT that? Now's your chance to take center stage since you think you are "I consider myself significantly superior to many other teachers with half a century on me. " to prove it for each vidie presented.
Oh and btw, Since you didn't back up what you stated AT ALL in your RD2 of your argument then as the professor correctly stated, Then you have no business stating it.

I'm a poker player. So don't talk to me about patience when you have no idea of the term.

"Perhaps you should stick with debates with all the 'intelligent' people you have found" That's the problem, There's not many here on DDO. You are not one of them the way you conduct yourself. Nor are you educated. You have the brains of well recycled bionic moo juice. You are nowhere near as smort, Sorry, Smart as you think you are.

Oh and oh yeah, Duh, Its a debate tactic to be aggressive that knocks people off their rockers. Now what part of that VERY BIG ONE don't you understand which is also taught in college? Grow up from beyond your runny babbit.
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