The Instigator
vsp2019
Con (against)
Winning
12 Points
The Contender
Skye2468
Pro (for)
Losing
6 Points

God is real

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 4 votes the winner is...
vsp2019
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/2/2019 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 993 times Debate No: 119719
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (19)
Votes (4)

 

vsp2019

Con

I will let my opponent go first and explain why they believe in a god/gods/higher power and I will give my opinion on their argument. Please provide at most your best 3 arguments in the first round. I place such a word limit because long essays are boring for both the viewers and the debaters. Let us stick to the point and make a case for our position.

My position is that: I believe there are no gods. I do not possess knowledge of the nonexistent of any deity so I could potentially be proven wrong and my mind can be changed.
Skye2468

Pro

I will be arguing for the God of the Bible.

1. Many people do not have a clear understanding of God's attributes.

God is,
Immaterial - Spirit, And not made of matter.
Spaceless - transcends space.
Timeless - transcends time, Is eternal, Had no beginning and will have no end.

No other major religions god's except a handful have these attributes. Christianity, Catholicism, Mormonism, Jehovah Witness, Islam, And Judaism.

Even scientist agree that Space, Time, And Matter all had to come into existence all at once, And couldn't be eternal. Therefore whatever caused the universe to exist would have to be Spaceless, Timeless, And Immaterial. Which matches the god that all these major religions believe in.

Something that is interesting though is if you study into each one of these religions. Each one has something to do with the Bible. That doesn't mean each one follows the Bible, But each one has something to do with it.

2. Next I want to argue that the entire Old Testament in the Bible points to Jesus, And Jesus fulfilled the Old Testament.

What makes this impressive is the fact the whole Bible was written over a span of 1500 years, By around 40 different authors, In 3 languages, On 3 different continents, In times of peace and times of war.

If we was to take just 10 people from the same location tommorow, And talked about just 1 controversial topic. What are the chances they would be in agreement? Yet this book over a span of 1500 years, 40 different authors, 3 languages, 3 continents, In times of peace and war, Have the same consistent message? I would give examples, But there is not enough characters.

Let's just say the Old Testament has many foreshadows of Jesus. You could say 1 or 2 could be coincidence, But after a while you start seeing more and more you start realizing this book must be divine. Also not to mention Jesus fulfilled over 300 prophecies from the Old Testament about himself.

No other religion except Christianity Bible has this.
Debate Round No. 1
vsp2019

Con

1.
If God is immaterial, Spaceless and timeless, Then this God cannot be measured or seen using the natural means. That God cannot exist in reality as it defies the laws of the natural world. If your God defies the laws of physics, Then it is physically impossible for your god to exist.

"Even scientist agree that Space, Time, And Matter all had to come into existence all at once, And couldn't be eternal. Therefore whatever caused the universe to exist would have to be Spaceless, Timeless, And Immaterial. Which matches the god that all these major religions believe in. "

This is evidently untrue. To make my case, I will cite the late astrophysicist Stephen Hawking from his last book Brief answers to the big questions: "When people ask me if a God created the universe, I tell them the question makes no sense. Time didn't exist before the Big Bang so there is no time for God to make the universe in. It's like asking for directions to the edge of the Earth- the Earth is a sphere that does not have an edge, So looking for it is a futile exercise.

2. Even if everything you said is true about the authors agreeing with each other, That doesn't change the fact that the bible affirms things that we know to be evidently false(Creationism, Flat earth, Age of the Earth, Global flood, Etc). For these events to occur, Everything we know about reality has to have been different. For brevity reasons, I will cite scientific sources in the comments.
https://skepticsannotatedbible. Com/science/long. Html

There are plenty of contradictions in the bible showing that the various authors disagreed on quite a lot of events.
https://infidels. Org/library/modern/donald_morgan/contradictions. Html

You gave no evidence and make extraordinary claims that cannot possibly be true. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary extraordinary evidence. That which can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence.
Skye2468

Pro

Skye2468 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 2
vsp2019

Con

As you forfeited the previous round and that I have fully refuted all your arguments, I will make a case for why I believe there is no god.
We understand how the big bang works. We know that space and time came to be at the beginning of the Universe. Therefore, If there is a god, Then that god did not create the universe because it did not have time to create the universe. We know how planets are formed from stars exploding into supernovae, We understand how light is created from the fusion of hydrogen atoms into helium atoms and how these sustain life on Earth(Photosynthesis etc. . . ). Every explanation is completely natural.

There have been plenty of cases(Flat Earth, Creationism, . . . ) where a religious explanation had to be let go for a better scientific one. Yet there has not been a single event in history where we had to let go of a scientific explanation for a better religious explanation.
God has always been used to fill the knowledge gap whenever we did not know something about the universe. "What created the Earth? We don't know therefore God did it" "Oh a supernova created the planets. Well, What created the stars then. We don't know therefore god. Oh the big bang. Well what created the big bang? Dunno so it must be god". Every time a secret of the universe has been uncovered, The answer has never been "God did it" We came to be through the process of evolution, Consciousness/mind is a product of the brain, When we die, Our body decays and we cease to be. No god is required at any step.

This thus leads to two possibilities: Either there is no god or there is a god but that god is useless, It does nothing. At most it might had a part in the starting process of the universe but then did nothing since. It has been so inactive that there is no noticeable difference between that god and a god that does not exist.

So out of these possibilities, The simplest explanation is that there is no god.
Skye2468

Pro

Since I ran out of time last round, Since there is only a 1 hour time limit. I will write here what was supposed to be last rounds response.

1. God created all the laws of physics, And created all the laws of the natural world. Everything that is natural must have come into existence from something supernatural. Every law must have a law maker.

I have heard that quote from Stephen Hawking before. The problem that I see with the quote is that God is timeless. God created time. God is not bound by his own creations, And therefore he doesn't need time to create anything.

Also another problem I see is that, Something must have caused everything to exist. The fact we are here existing shows that. In my opinion I could turn that argument back around by saying "If time didn't exist before the big bang, There would be no time for the big bang to exist"

2. I disagree with flat earth, And I disagree that the Bible teaches that earth is flat at all. All the other scientific topics would be a lot of explaining for the amount of characters in this debate. Plus whole other debates themselves. I will say this though, What if God knowingly made things the way they are knowing that people would come to their own conclusions of how everything was created? What if everyone knows of Gods existence by everything that is made, But as the Bible says we are blinded by the devil?

As for the supposed contradictions I don't believe the Bible has contradictions. I think we are just flawed and finite. Also what if God had the Bible worded in such a way that some things may appear to be contradictions but they are not? I have a few supposed contradictions answered in some word documents. I am slowly working on trying to answer them, And that website you are listing I am using it.

Here is a link to show how I view what evidence is.

Evidence and God (4 things to understand)
https://www. Youtube. Com/watch? V=kjDgGz6xRX8&t=136s

The video is on Whaddo you meme? Channel.
Debate Round No. 3
19 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by omar2345 3 years ago
omar2345
@vsp2019

Sorry about the countering of dsjpk5's vote on the debate. If I was actually voting on this debate I would have given you the most convincing argument. That is it because Pro did not give arguments for God being real. The arguments were either non-existence or either does require a leap of faith for the evidence to be true. You still would have but with 3 less votes.
Posted by backwardseden 3 years ago
backwardseden
@Skye2468 - When you mention "God has revealed it to me", You know what you sound like especially when you think you believe you deserve to be punished by an invisible god that's never been proven by anyone, Not ever, Nobody, In the entire history of the human race? Take one lucky guess? No. I get it. I really do. So why did this god of yours (btw, Which god among hundreds of thousands? ) "reveal" himself to YOU especially, And only you and not some suffering third world child whose parents had their heads chopped off and were burned for blasphemy? Your god is so loving. "Once you seek Him humbly and whole heartedly you will find Him. " What stupid imbecilic moron would want to do that? Why isn't it the reverse that YOUR god reveals himself to others and he doesn't play children's games of hiding his weenie behind bushes? Don't give me this faith crap either. Why? Because your god of super ego god complex, In which your bible is entirely about, Would ---never--- hide behind the false pretenses of faith because faith is NOT evidence AND your god with his ego, It is an utter requirement for him to spread that ego in any way possible. This is a duh situation. Also, Children, Especially suffering children, Have to somehow be indoctrinated into believing in your god. Do you really think YOUR god would pass up an opportunity for any indoctrination? If you think so, Study A LOT harder on that god of yours. You still have yet to answer the question. . . What can children learn from suffering? If you've answered "nothing", You've answered correctly. Also, "why believe"? Prove that your god revealed himself to you. Something tangible please. What makes you so special? Sheesh. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. If you cannot provide that evidence, Then you shouldn't have stated it.
Posted by Skye2468 3 years ago
Skye2468
"Con points to prophecy. Jesus was a Jew. He read the Bible. If I read a book and then fulfill the conditions of that book to the best of my ability"

A study was shown that any human being able to fulfill only 8 of the prophecies in the old testament, The chances of that would be around 1 to the power of 21. Jesus fulfilled over 300. Also Jesus fulfilled prophecies about where he would be born, How he would born, His bones wouldn't get broke on the cross, And many more. It's not that he just read the scriptures and tried his best to fulfill them.
Posted by Skye2468 3 years ago
Skye2468
I also want to respond to the criticism in the voting about the prophecies.
Posted by Skye2468 3 years ago
Skye2468
vsp2019 well I still said what I said I guess lol.
Posted by Skye2468 3 years ago
Skye2468
vsp2019 I just realized that first response was not for me. I guess that explains why I was confused lol
Posted by Skye2468 3 years ago
Skye2468
I disagree that the laws haven't been broken so far. I think the big bang theory implies that the laws broke atleast once.

If God did exist outside of space and time, Could He prove himself to someone individually? Of course He could. Even if He completely hid outside of space and time, He could prove himself to any individual He wanted.

You said "it's clear that God is supposed to exist within space and time. " I disagree. All the prophecies and foreshadows in the old testament show that He is outside of space and time. Plus there are verses that imply He is not bound by space and time.

God did know Adam and Eve would eat the fruit before they ate it. God did know we would sin before we sinned.

I'm going to watch backwardsedens videos. I have been planning on watching his videos for a while now. It's just I have been super busy.

I didn't come to the conclusion that God exists from just blind faith. I have studied almost everyday for the last 1 to 2 years. I also have had spiritual experiences. Weird things have happened around me. The biggest reason I believe though is because God has revealed it to me. It is Him who enables you to come to Him. If you are really seeking the truth please consider crying out to God and admit you are a sinner. Once you seek Him humbly and whole heartedly you will find Him. God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble.

Also sure I would love to debate you again :) :)

backwardseden and me have debated before. If you want to see it, It's on my profile.
Posted by vsp2019 3 years ago
vsp2019
thoht
I am responding to your criticism in the voting section of my arguments
"Con pretends that were a deity to exist as people define it that it would be bound by the laws of physics. We cannot pretend that we know all of the dimensions that exist. We cannot say that our laws will never be broken, Just that they have not yet so far. "
When we say something exists, That means we believe this thing to be present in space and time. We have no perception of anything that exists within space and time. Therefore saying something exists outside of space and time does not make any sense. Space and time, In other words, Is a universal set within which everything is present and nothing exists outside of it.

Also, Anyone who read the old testament will see that this god clearly is supposed to exist within space and time. If that god was timeless, Then that god would have known that Adam and Eve would eat the apple even before they ate it, That god would have known his people were sinners way before they sinned and thus that whole alleged flood would have no need to have happened.

Skye2468
There is nothing new for me to add to rebut you outside of what backwardseden has said. They explained my arguments quite clearly and provided even more citations. If you really seek the truth, I hope you will spend some time watching the videos we sent you and the readings and analyse them critically. I may hit you up in a couple of weeks if I am free to debate you in a longer format but I probably will not be free. Or maybe backwardseden may be down to have a debate with you.
Posted by backwardseden 3 years ago
backwardseden
@Skye2468 - "If the Bible is true that would mean you can know God exists without the standard of evidence that you are wanting. " Well you were proven time and time and time again that your bible is false. Here's some videos.
http://www. Youtube. Com/watch? V=QGh-ImijNeY - Atheist Experience - Bible is ridiculous
http://www. Youtube. Com/watch? V=-psDl45ar_s - Read your bible - if you dare a. E.
http://www. Youtube. Com/watch? V=E3rGev6OZ3w - Penn Jillette: Reading the Bible (Or the Koran, Or the Torah) Will Make You an Atheist

Did you watch the videos on christ?
"If you don't think you can then you are decieved. " Well gee, Maybe its you who is deceived. Especially especially especially when you state something so ridiculously outlandish as "and we all deserve the wrath and eternal punishment of God, " Again, You try telling that to someone, Anyone who is just a passerby on the street and they will think you are criminally insane and rightly so. No. Nobody "deserves" ---any--- kind of punishment, Not ever, Not for any reason from a fake god that you cannot prove exists. You still have yet to answer. . . What about children? Are they worthy of suffering such as 15 years of horrific beatings, Torturing, And abuse? If your answer is "no", You've answered properly. Your christ in no possible way suffered in comparison which you cannot even prove exists also. So let me post the videos again.
http://www. Youtube. Com/watch? V=6lqC8fvIspY - jesus wasn"t jesus (Aron Ra)
http://www. Youtube. Com/watch? V=KXAGpCTiGlQ - The True Core of the jesus Myth (Christopher Hitchens)
http://www. Youtube. Com/watch? V=apS_679ru50 - Did jesus Exist?
http://www. Youtube. Com/watch? V=9AzwJ9d4i1g - Why christianity is Unreasonable (Richard Carrier)
http://www. Youtube. Com/watch? V=x-slAgzJmdU - Why Does Every Intelligent christian disobey jesus?
http://www. Youtube. Com/watch? V=AJMd5UiTeys - Biggest Lie - The fourth gospel

See? That's the problem. There are no "what ifs" with your god until proven
Posted by Skye2468 3 years ago
Skye2468
1. Did you watch the video link I put in there?

If the Bible is true that would mean you can know God exists without the standard of evidence that you are wanting. If you don't think you can then you are decieved. Please atleast consider this, Not everything needs to be observable or put into a test tube to know for sure it exists. You are asking me to give you evidence of something that is out of my control and is infinitely above me. He is supernatural, And a Spirit, And somehow you want me to give you evidence for that.

2. "It shows you are better than the Bible you believe in" No it doesn't. The Bible is authoritative over me because it is Gods word. Also like I said, I don't believe the Bible teaches the earth is flat.

It is not a fact that the Bible advocates a flat earth. The people who think that the Bible supports that the earth is flat is using bad hermeneutics, And bad exegesis.

Does the Bible Say the Earth is Flat?
https://www. Youtube. Com/watch? V=NqpocSzWDD0
WWUTT

I am well aware that using "What if" doesn't make it true. The reason I said it like that is to give you questions to think about. You don't have to acknowledge those questions if you don't want to, But the "What ifs" I typed are a lot more reasonable than your "What if" example that you used to try and discredit mine.
4 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Vote Placed by omar2345 3 years ago
omar2345
vsp2019Skye2468Tied
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Total points awarded:60 
Reasons for voting decision: since dsjpk5 likes to counter my vote. I will do the same. Evidence: https://www.debate.org/debates/The-god-of-the-bible-and-the-bible-has-no-place-in-a-modern-civilized-society/2/
Vote Placed by dsjpk5 3 years ago
dsjpk5
vsp2019Skye2468Tied
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Total points awarded:06 
Reasons for voting decision: Countering both inadequate votes.
Vote Placed by backwardseden 3 years ago
backwardseden
vsp2019Skye2468Tied
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Total points awarded:50 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro assumes that because he does not have an answer for something, therefore god. This ruins his entire premise. The OT does not in any way point to jesus. If so, Judaism would not exist. Pro states "40 different authors, In 3 languages, On 3 different continents," etc. "Have the same consistent message?" Actually they don't in many verses. This is one of at least 50 reasons why his god would never use text as a form of communication - to prevent errors. jesus fulfilled no prophesies as he was not the messiah. Again Judaism would not exist + many other reasons. Con "Time didn't exist before the Big Bang so there is no time for God to make the universe in." True. Con also correctly states that there are "plenty of contradictions in the bible showing that the various authors disagreed on quite a lot of events." Its another reason why its supposed god would never use text. Con "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary extraordinary evidence." Pro did not provide that evidence.
Vote Placed by Thoht 3 years ago
Thoht
vsp2019Skye2468Tied
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Total points awarded:10 
Reasons for voting decision: Both arguments have flaws. Con pretends that were a deity to exist as people define it that it would be bound by the laws of physics. We cannot pretend that we know all of the dimensions that exist. We cannot say that our laws will never be broken, just that they have not yet so far. Pro argues that humans cannot measure God yet he claims to know exactly what God is with no evidence to support his claims outside of a book whose origins are unknown, and suspected to be illiterate middle easterners. Pro also suggests there is a claim that is unique to Christianity. This is false. Con points to prophecy. Jesus was a Jew. He read the Bible. If I read a book and then fulfill the conditions of that book to the best of my ability, the book did not predict what I would do. I did what I did to gain power over others. Con is correct in several statements, but not enough for me to call him convincing on the topic. This debate would convince no unbiased viewers either way.

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