The Instigator
kyleniel
Pro (for)
Losing
2 Points
The Contender
GuitarSlinger
Con (against)
Winning
32 Points

God isn't needed for the existence of the universe.

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 7 votes the winner is...
GuitarSlinger
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 11/11/2018 Category: Philosophy
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 140,597 times Debate No: 118944
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (237)
Votes (7)

 

kyleniel

Pro

Before there was the universe, There was nothing, Nothing, And only nothing can come from nothing, As logic says. However, In this nothing, There is nothing to support logic, So it is possible for something to come from nothing. It is also possible for the world to come from this nothing. So, There is no need for a deity.
GuitarSlinger

Con

Before there was the universe, There was nothing" - Not so sure you can assert this statement as fact. What I would argue is that something existed, But it did not consist of matter.

I think a better way to state this is "The material universe exists now. However, Before the material universe existed, It did not exist. It came to exist at some point". Would you agree as to a restate of the premise?

Using logic, And observing the world around us, We can observe/deduce the following:

1. Everything that exists, Needed something else to make it exist-- some other "agents" to bring about it's existence. That rock on the road. That tree over there. The car I drive. The computer you use. The cell phone you use. Heck, Even me and you. We did not "pop into existence" -- some other agents were necessary to bring about their existence. None of these things came into existence on their own. We observe this with our senses and science pretty much confirms this.

2. One can pretty much observe this with pretty much everything in the Material universe. You can ask this question pretty much about everything and you arrive at the same conclusion : "______________ needed something else (perhaps multiple things) to bring about it's existence. "

3. If one asks this question repeatedly, One ultimately arrives at the question of "What about matter itself? What brought matter into existence? " (reminds me of Rocky and Bullwinkle-- Wassamatta U. ).

4. Having observed things do not bring themselves into existence (see #1 and #2 above), It stands to reason that "Matter could not have brought itself into existence". Matter could not cause itself to exist-- it would need something that is "not" matter to bring about it's existence. Or, Put another way, Something "outside the material universe" would have been necessary to bring about the existence of Matter. Or put another way, Something "Immaterial" would be necessary to bring about the existence of matter.

So while I agree, "matter" could come from nothing. I would argue, SOMETHING is necessary to bring matter into existence, Since matter could not have come into existence of it's own accord. If it could, This would fly in the face of everything we observe in the material universe, Both with our senses and/or scientifically. This something would have to be immaterial (i. E. Not composed of matter itself).
Debate Round No. 1
kyleniel

Pro

1. Nothing can come from itself, It needs an external cause. So there was nothing. It's fact from its logical consistency.

2. Well, Even if something is necessary, It isn't necessarily a deity. It could be a force.
GuitarSlinger

Con

Rethinking your original post, Your argument is making an assumption that is presumed to be true: the fact that there was "nothing" before the universe came to be. Would you agree that is an assumption, And not necessarily a Truth?

I would rather say, "before the universe came to be, There was something that was NOT the universe". Now, That "something" could be either "nothing", Or it could be "something" else. I simply do not know. But I would not presume to assert as a Truth that there was absolutely nothing. . . . . .

Regarding your two points.

1. "Nothing can come from itself, It needs an external cause. " Logically speaking, This statement doesn't make sense. It, In a sense, Refutes itself. On the one hand you are saying "nothing can come from itself". That statement can actually be reworded to say "nothing can come from nothing" (substituting "itself" with "nothing", Since "itself" refers to "nothing"). But then you go on to say "it needs an external cause". Which means, If it needs an external cause, Then "nothing" can not produce "nothing"-- something other than "nothing" would be needed to produce "nothing".

This 2nd part refutes the first part-- if it needs an external cause, It needs something that is NOT nothing to cause it.

Put simply, That argument goes like this (would you agree that "itself" refers or equates to "nothing" in your statement? ). IN the argument below, "X" = "nothing" and "Y" = "itself".
Consider X and Y
1. X can come from Y, It needs an external cause.
2. X equals Y, Therefore
3. X can come from X, It needs an external cause. <---- this doesn't make sense, For if X could come from X, It would not need an external cause.

2. I will agree with you-- while logic would dictate that the Material universe would need something that is im-material to create it (i. E. Not of the material universe), This doesn't necessarily point to a GOD that created it. Let's just call it, For lack of a better word, An "Entity". Now, We are starting to see some of the characteristics of this "Entity". Or, If you want, We could even call it "Force". We've already arrived at one of the characteristics of this "force' (or entity)
1st Characteristic - Immaterial - this entity can not be composed of Matter for reasons explained above. It would defy logic set forth in the above arguments.

Keep in mind, I"m not yet calling this thing a "God", I'm just setting forth a characteristic. . . . . It would be like me saying "Man, I see this big thing in front of me. I don't know what it is, But it is Grey. " It might be too soon for me to call it an elephant, But we know something about this thing before me-- it's grey. As we start to use our reason and intellect, Perhaps this big thing will be revealed to us. Same with God. Let's not call this entity "God" yet-- let's just call it "Entity". And we know it's immaterial (not made of matter).

As a corollary to the first characteristic, A by-product of this would be this "Entity" is would not be detectable or measurable by science (as we know it). Why not? Well, Put simply, "science" measures/observes the physical material universe around us. So this Entity, As explained earlier, Would have to be "outside the physical universe". This thing. . . This entity. . . This force has no physical dimensions that could be observed (remember, It's outside the physical material universe).
Debate Round No. 2
kyleniel

Pro

What I meant was no object can come from itself.
GuitarSlinger

Con

Exactly. So, To re-state-- it has been observed that every object/creature/thing in the material universe can not create itself, Or bring itself into existence. An external cause is necessary. If one keeps asking this question of everything in the universe, One ultimately arrives at the question of "What about matter itself. How did matter come into existence. "

It follows that in order for "matter" to come into existence, Something outside of "matter" (i. E. Not made of "matter") would be necessary to create "matter".
Debate Round No. 3
kyleniel

Pro

Well, That still doesn't refute my point that it isn't necessarily a god.
GuitarSlinger

Con

Excellent observation. I think before we continue, We should probably do something we should've done in the beginning, Before we started, And that is, Agree to what a "deity" is.

*** So, May I ask you, How would you define "deity" (or if you prefer, How would you describe "deity"). ***

I ask this because I want to make sure we start off right. I want to make sure you're not expecting a "deity" to be something or do something that just isn't logical. I've had arguments where folks had the position to something akin to this: "A god (deity) should be able to make a triangle with only 2 sides ". Then, When I argue that isn't possible because it isn't logical, They counter with, With arms folded and a victorious smile on their face, "See! God doesn't exist. If an all-powerful God exists, He should be able to do ANYTHING. "

Please don"t' spend time dissecting my example above- I hope you get my point. I would just prefer we start off right and see what we both expect a "Deity" to be.

The other thing I suspect is that this discussion might take more than 5 rounds-- 50K characters is not a lot of space to discuss/debate something like "God" (Aquinas et al have written VOLUMES on the topic). Nonetheless, I"ll do my best.

Now. Back to your most recent argument. While I didn't refute your point that a "deity" isn't necessary, I think what I did argue or explain is that "some thing" is necessary to create the material universe, And that this "thing" could not be part of the material universe-- it had to be "outside" of the material universe, Not made of matter, And thus immaterial. So, This "thing" that created the material needs to be "immaterial". Would you agree?

The path I"m taking is a different path--- I'm trying to reveal characteristics of "what" created the universe. An analogy would be this: I can do my best to reveal to you the characteristics of this object in front of us. I can tell you it's large, It's grey, It has big ears and big legs, It's noisy, It's smelly, And it has a trunk. At the end of the day, If you don't believe it's an elephant, Not sure there's much more I can do, Especially if in the very beginning we agree that an "elephant" has these characteristics. At the end of the discussion you can argue, "well, If it"s an elephant, Why are there peanuts here? If this was in fact an elephant, The peanuts wouldn"t be here, Since elephants eat peanuts". Or you might say, "Nope -- an elephant is supposed to have a large horn in the middle of it's head. " I might argue that say "Hey now, You're changing your idea of what an elephant is. " I'll still challenge/debate, But I might question some things. I"m willing to debate (argue) subsequent points after debating / arguing the preliminary points.

One final point, As we debate, I'd like to address issues singularly, And not open up and try to address all issues/questions that may come up later. Let's discuss and put to rest a point, And then move on to the next. A simple analogy would be you and I are driving with a truck load of merchandise, And we come to a huge chasm/canyon in the road. You may argue we need a bridge to get everything across, I may say "No, Not necessarily. We don't HAVE to have a bridge to get everything across". You may counter with "Well, How do WE get across? How do we get all our merchandise across? Etc etc". Let's first settle the question IS a bridge the only means of getting across? Let's not try and address all subsequent questions that arise, Unless we absolutely have to. You get my point?
Debate Round No. 4
GuitarSlinger

Con

GuitarSlinger forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 5
237 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by fatdude 2 weeks ago
fatdude
bro you are actually supposed to debate, Kyleniel
Posted by Isc2002 4 weeks ago
Isc2002
I am no expert in that, But I consider that many people has stories or experiences related with a divinity.
Obviosly, Is not the only reason that I have to say that God really exist and he keeps us alive but every one can believe in whatever they want, If they want to believe in the philosophy history, Or if they want to believe in both they can, Only that I want to say is that you can't criticize the people that believes in God only because you believe only in the science evolution.
Posted by Rose829 4 weeks ago
Rose829
Let me guess, You think that God doesn't exist because you can't see him. Now, Can you see air? No, That's right! Can you see feelings? No, You answered correctly! Can you see electricity? No? Me neither! Just like the things I mentioned, There are other things that we can't see yet they exist. Now, You probably think the bible is a "fairytale". Let me ask you something? Do you think that a "fairytale" that was written more than 1000 years ago could predict what we are going through on these days? Example:
Luke 21:25-26"And there will be signs in sun and moon and stars, And on the earth distress of nations in perplexity because of the roaring of the sea and the waves, People fainting with fear and with foreboding of what is coming on the world. For the powers of the heavens will be shaken. "
2 Timothy 3:1-17"But understand this, That in the last days there will come times of difficulty. For people will be lovers of self, Lovers of money, Proud, Arrogant, Abusive, Disobedient to their parents, Ungrateful, Unholy, Heartless, Unappeasable, Slanderous, Without self-control, Brutal, Not loving good, Treacherous, Reckless, Swollen with conceit, Lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, Having the appearance of godliness, But denying its power. Avoid such people. . . . "
2 Peter 3: 3-4" Knowing this first of all, That scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, Following their own sinful desires. They will say, "Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, All things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation. "
2 Timothy 3:1" But understand this, That in the last days there will come times of difficulty. "
And there are much more versicles about the last days. Just reflect and think to yourself.
Posted by ORIGINAL_Johnny_Pickle_YT 1 month ago
ORIGINAL_Johnny_Pickle_YT
(In last comment, The orange, I meant yellow) the placement of the materials, Or whatever. Together, The light makes the orange, The orange is the consciousness. At the end of your life, (by the way, There is no such thing as death from old age, Your immunity systems get so weak. You die from heart arrest, Cancer or other) when you die, The red and yellow are are separated, Because the body material and the placement is separated, And kill the consciousness. The orange ceases to exist, But it was never really a direct thing anyway. I mean, It was just red and yellow pointing at a wall. It doesn't form an entirely different thing. That's life kids. More interested? Check out my channel called, "ORIGINAL Johnny Pickle" So the thing is, If a being of higher power was actually needed to make the universe exist instead of not exist, Then god would definitely exist. But since not existing isn't possible, Then there is simply no need for a god. Agree with me. I just hate the thought of a theist, Who has such strong hopes in god, Dying and finding out he's been wrong their whole entire life. It's just sad. They won't actually even have a chance, A moment to actually find out. So the best thing you can do in your life is prepare for death. Harden up. Life isn't eternal, Afterlife or hell doesn't exist, So don't waste your precious moments in life. Use it, Enjoy it, But don't hold it too dear, As the thought of death will consume you, And you will spend the rest of your life living in fear and worrying. I hope this changed your opinion. Feel free to argue with me. I quite enjoy it and love to hear different opinions.
Posted by ORIGINAL_Johnny_Pickle_YT 1 month ago
ORIGINAL_Johnny_Pickle_YT
First of all, It makes no logical sense, That throwing bull blood, Or crushed rose residue at a bronze statue with a human body, Random animal head, Holding a banjo and shuriken 0. 5 will summon a god who will listen to your demands. Even if a god did exist, He would hate us humans, For totally destroying Earth. Why would he "love" us monsters? Several species have gone extinct because of us. Just search of how many chickens are slaughtered yearly for only the purpose of poultry. Just search up how many sports involve in humans killing animals, For fun! I mean, Sure, Other animals do that to, Surplus killing, But they have no idea it's wrong! Humans, They know full on well how much damage they cause and just forget it. There are some programs which are trying to help the world, But it is nowhere near as enough, And never will compared to all the damage we have done. Also, Answer me this. If god has magic and stuff, Why do we have to die? Why can't we just all be immortal and eat cake for eternity if he loves us oh so much? The truth is, God isn't needed, But if the universe needed a being of higher power to exist, He would, But he doesn't. The only thing the universe needs to do is to exist, Because there is no such thing as not existing. Well, The fact of physical matter existing at the beginning sounds unreal. It would be subject to erosion, Corrosion, And other. The only thing we have to work with is just nothingness, Vacuum. Non-physical matter. Maybe traits of non-physical nothingness, May have caught on to the centre of infinity, Which is impossible to actually imagine. And it may have compressed whatever else existed there, Finally creating matter. I mean, Ridiculous, But it sounds more believable than "Magic man appears and make life for own entertainment". Oh, Talking about life, Life is not magical. It is understandable. Wanna know what happens after you die? Imagine a red and yellow light pointed on a wall at the same spot. Red is body material. Orange is
Posted by fashiontips 1 month ago
fashiontips
Write for Us in our Fashion and Beauty Tips Blog " Fashion Trends, Beauty Tips, Style, Health, Fitness, Lifestyle, Fashion Technology. Https://todayfashiontips. Com/write-for-us/
Posted by YerlinMadriz 1 month ago
YerlinMadriz
God shows us his existence by making the sunrise, By making the birds fly or the rivers run, Proof of his existence just by allowing us to breathe, Because yes, It is God's choice to have us in the world. No more proof is needed than what is already created. Just breathing just believing that he exists. And yes, We call it faith, Faith of what is not seen but we believe, Faith of waiting for his arrival to be able to live eternally in a beautiful place where there are no wars, Viruses, Murderers, Etc. Where we only have peace and can live in harmony. It is not necessary to try to convince someone to believe, It is something that must be decided. Because having faith in his existence is a decision.
Posted by makhdoom5 1 month ago
makhdoom5
i wish i could debate as well but DDO did not let me debate i can't put 2nd argument at all. They have done something about my account RIP DDO. :(
Posted by DrGre420 2 months ago
DrGre420
I am an atheist, I don't belive in Jesus, Allah, Zeus or any mythical creature. We live in an universe in which anything within the laws of science is possible. We are making great scientific progress by the day and we have the ability look in perspective on anything. It is silly to belive the creational ideas of the different religions. The universe wasnt created by the christian, Nor by the mayan god. In that sense there is no God. But the idea how everything came to be is very debatable and questionable. Sure, Scientists count on math, Calculations and observations and the things they found on the case are astonishing. For me Math is foundation of everything in the universe, Mathematical laws cannot be broken or altered. 1+1 will always be 2. The more we find the more questions arise. The main one here needs to be not whether God created the universe, But do we live in a simulation or not. People have just began making computer simulations, And they are getting more complex every day. We made our lives dependent on that power and we, Ve managed to simulate lives, Minds and physics inside a computer, "god" knows what we are going to be able to do in the future with that power - maybe simulate a universe? But an other question arises - what if someone or something had done this to our universe. In that sense a GOD may still be present after all.
Posted by TheEpicTricycle 2 months ago
TheEpicTricycle
Debateart. Com
7 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 7 records.
Vote Placed by Anonymous 2 years ago
kylenielGuitarSlingerTied
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Total points awarded:15 
Reasons for voting decision: Have to award con the points for debating. Con gets conduct as pro forfeited (understandably but still).
Vote Placed by Debaticus 2 years ago
Debaticus
kylenielGuitarSlingerTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Litterally 1 word arguments from the instigator
Vote Placed by dinachen 2 years ago
dinachen
kylenielGuitarSlingerTied
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Reasons for voting decision: I agree more with GuitarSlinger, cause it wouldn't make sense for the universe to just appear for no reason.
Vote Placed by eXclusua 2 years ago
eXclusua
kylenielGuitarSlingerTied
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Reasons for voting decision: As a subject, I agree that God is not need for the existence of the universe. However, my votes were based upon who had better arguments and logical tangents of thoughts that supported an opposing point of view - this was definitely GuitarSlinger
Vote Placed by Juris 2 years ago
Juris
kylenielGuitarSlingerTied
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Reasons for voting decision: I am an atheist but i judge objectively. PRO made absolutely no effort to argue. Con's arguments aren't convincing but at least he put an effort. A poor argument is better than no argument at all. I am not trying to insult anyone here though.
Vote Placed by andymcstab 2 years ago
andymcstab
kylenielGuitarSlingerTied
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Reasons for voting decision: con made the better arguments.
Vote Placed by DebaterDracon 2 years ago
DebaterDracon
kylenielGuitarSlingerTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Literally next to zero input from kyleniel. They provided points and then gave next to no effort in replying to the counter arguments provided by GuitarSlinger.

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