The Instigator
Ragnar
Pro (for)
Winning
12 Points
The Contender
DoctorDeku
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points

Going to prison is more voluntary than not.

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
Ragnar
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/5/2013 Category: Society
Updated: 7 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 2,795 times Debate No: 32807
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (28)
Votes (2)

 

Ragnar

Pro

I shall be arguing that the actions which result in prison sentaces, are generally a choice, with their potential negative results common knowledge.

Full Resolution:
Assuming the validity of free will, going to prison within the USA is generally more voluntary than not.

Definitions (please request any changes or additions, before we begin):
From the Merriam-Webster dictionary...
Voluntary is "proceeding from the will or from one's own choice or consent" (1).
Prison is "a place of confinement especially for lawbreakers; specifically: an institution (as one under state jurisdiction) for confinement of persons convicted of serious crimes" (2).
Free Will is "freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention" (3).

Structure:
No rebuttals in round 2. No new arguments past round 3.

Sources:
(1) http://www.merriam-webster.com...
(2) http://www.merriam-webster.com...
(3) http://www.merriam-webster.com...
DoctorDeku

Con

Let's do this!
I look forward to an entertaining and concise debate!
Debate Round No. 1
Ragnar

Pro

Life is in essence a series of choices, leading to different outcomes. We invest with our actions, and reap the results. If someone wishes to go to college, they must apply. If someone wants money, they must find a way to attain it.

While prison seems one of the least ideal places to be, the actions which get someone sent there are known to have that outcome. Even with prison rarely the goal, it is usually a known part of the bargain for whatever is gained. Much like gambling has much potential benefit, but it is common knowledge that the vast majority of people do not prosper from it.

Last December a man in Buffalo actually shoplifted to be caught, with the intent of going to prison to receive cancer treatment (1). This is just one of many reasons someone would openly choose to go, others often have to deal with lifestyle choices (2).

Sources:
(1) http://thinkprogress.org...
(2) http://meninchains.com...
DoctorDeku

Con

DoctorDeku forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 2
Ragnar

Pro

Recidivism sheds further light on the choice.
Many prisoners are repeat offenders, who have firsthand knowledge of the outcome. Parole violations can easily result in resuming of prison sentences, with that pre-explained on the contact they signed. The three-strike laws in 28 states (1), are avoidable by relocating before committing the level of crime needed to activate them.

In cases of mental impairment, there are several legal defenses based around such (2).

Fashion.
As reported in the Wall Street Journal (3), veteran police officers are having an easier time capturing criminals who idolize convicts by sagging their pants. Fleeing from police adds the additional criminal charge of Resisting Arrest, thus more prison time, yet they sabotage their supposed efforts to escape.

Sources:
(1) http://www.legalmatch.com...
(2) http://dictionary.law.com...
(3) http://online.wsj.com...
DoctorDeku

Con

DoctorDeku forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
Ragnar

Pro

As stated I shall introduce no new arguments from this point forward, only rebuttals should they become necessary. My opponent is welcome to present new arguments, as the rule was in place without the expectation of missed rounds.

I'd like to thank Militant_Pacifist for helping me refine the base hypothesis into a resolution, and DoctorDeku for accepting the challenge.
DoctorDeku

Con

DoctorDeku forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
Ragnar

Pro

In closing, I shall repeat resolution "Assuming the validity of free will, going to prison within the USA is generally more voluntary than not;" with extended definitions from my round 1.

Assuming the validity of freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention, going to an institution for confinement for persons convicted of serious crimes within the USA is generally more proceeding from one's own choice than not.

This claim is without judgement of why they make those choices. It includes words like 'generally' to focus on the average prisoner instead of ones with exceptional circumstances.


If I have not met my BoP, please vote against me on argument.
DoctorDeku

Con

DoctorDeku forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 5
28 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 21 through 28 records.
Posted by Ragnar 7 years ago
Ragnar
Your argument that anyone who asks said questions about the nature of crime is a drugy "stoner" is highly Ad Hominem unless supported, which you have failed to do, that or the statement was specific about me, to which you have presented zero evidence.

Further you pile on increasing attacks, instead of defending your original claim of drug use.
Posted by GWL-CPA 7 years ago
GWL-CPA
Your question is stupid. When my stepson was in grade and middle school, the teachers told us that no question is retarded. You are not in grade school, middle school, or high school, so I can call your question retarded.

I presented the facts below to prove what you said was nonsense. The other people who posted to your question told you in nice terms you question was stupid.

I have presented my proof that what you said was nonsense; now you can throw out whatever defense you might have to counter my statements.

I attack all people who make moronic statements like yours. My arguments below are not Ad Hominem.

My attacks against you are real and have nothing to do with your arguments or question.

But, many young people at this site post nonsense questions like yours.

Do you understand what the word privilege means now?

Do you now understand what the word Freedom means now?

Based on your question and your arguments, you need to take a few Philosophy courses, especially a course in Logic.

Do you know any attorneys or have attorney friends? Take you post to an attorney friend and see what he/she thinks.

But, nice picture of your dog.
Posted by Ragnar 7 years ago
Ragnar
Nice argument, had you presented a fraction of those things instead of random Ad Hominem attacks against those with questions not in line with your way of thinking, this all could have been avoided. Yet you chose to ignore the question, and attack me. You then repeated your attacks. Now you cannot back up your attacks.

Provide proof of drug use, or admit your fault.
Posted by GWL-CPA 7 years ago
GWL-CPA
You actions and comments are sufficient proof for me; and, again, a pointless pursuit. I can"t fathom how anyone would come up with such mindless nonsense and not be a stoner.

Your premise or question, "Is prison voluntary" is a silly, and I guess you thought it was cute and smart. You are so clever. Here is the definition of prison from Dictionary.com.

prison Q94;

1.a building for the confinement of persons held while awaiting trial, persons sentenced after conviction, etc.
2.any place of confinement or involuntary restraint.

You will note the word involuntary.

Then you make an equally nonsensical statement:

"Freedom would be meaningless, without the privilege to receive consequences for one"s voluntary actions, which result in them being in prison by their own choice.

You are committing the fallacy of omission by ignoring the examples that disprove your point; you are stacking the deck.

"Freedom would be meaningless, without the privilege to receive consequences for one voluntary actions, which result in them being in prison by their own choice.

You start out with your own conclusion "Freedom is meaningless without the privilege to receive consequences" which does not follow. You are committing the fallacy of omission by ignoring the examples that disprove your point; you are stacking the deck.

Freedom is a concept that entails many things, many of which do not have "the privilege" to receive legal consequences.

I have never heard a judge, lawyer, Law Professor, Congressperson, etc. ever use the words "the privilege to receive consequence." What in the world are you talking about?

To help you with the proper use of the word privilege, here is the definition from Dictionary.com:
Posted by GWL-CPA 7 years ago
GWL-CPA
Part II

To help you with the proper use of the word privilege, here is the definition from Dictionary.com:

privilege
noun

1.a right, immunity, or benefit enjoyed only by a person beyond the advantages of most: the privileges of the very rich.

2.a special right, immunity, or exemption granted to persons in authority or office to free them from certain obligations or liabilities: the privilege of a senator to speak in Congress without danger of a libel suit.

3.a grant to an individual, corporation, etc., of a special right or immunity, under certain conditions.

4.the principle or condition of enjoying special rights or immunities.

5.any of the rights common to all citizens under a modern constitutional government: We enjoy the privileges of a free people.

verb (used with object)

1.to grant a privilege to.

2.to exempt (usually followed by from ).

3.to authorize or license (something otherwise forbidden).

What people enjoy as freedom is not meaningless to them because they do not have the privilege to receive legal consequences.

For example, in America, people are free to choose whatever religion they want. Freedom of religion has no legal consequences; and it is still very meaningful to religious people.

But let"s wade through your fog and restate what you were trying to say.

People are free to choose to break the law. People know that breaking the law can result in punishment, which includes being put in prison, fines, community service, etc. Therefore, since people are voluntarily breaking the law (freedom to break or to obey), they are voluntarily being punished if they get caught.

There is only one problem with the above logic tautology; it is the word "voluntarily."
Posted by GWL-CPA 7 years ago
GWL-CPA
Part III

For example,

Most people know that "Treason" is punishable by death. If I attempt to overthrow the government for what I believe are just causes, just like our founding fathers committed Treason against King George, and I am caught and put to death, I did not volunteer to die, but accepted the consequences of my actions for a greater cause, freedom from tyranny.

So, it is your use of the word "voluntary" that is wrong. People who commit crimes accept the risk of prison. Going to prison is not voluntary.
Posted by Ragnar 7 years ago
Ragnar
Than prove your claim that I am a stoner. If you cannot than you are making unwarranted attacks.

(what caused this debate challenge may be found at: http://www.debate.org... )
Posted by GWL-CPA 7 years ago
GWL-CPA
Nonsense topics are not worth my time or effort.

Why would you come up with such nonsense?

Are you on drugs a lot?

Get clean and sober, your life will improve.
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by leojm 7 years ago
leojm
RagnarDoctorDekuTied
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Total points awarded:60 
Reasons for voting decision: Good Job Pro. Did a better job of convincing me on to his side. Also had better sources.
Vote Placed by ClassicRobert 7 years ago
ClassicRobert
RagnarDoctorDekuTied
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Total points awarded:60 
Reasons for voting decision: Ragnar won conduct because he didn't forfeit, s/g is tied because in Con's two sentences, I saw no errors, and Ragnar won convincing arguments and sources because he made arguments and used sources.

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