The Instigator
mosc
Pro (for)
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The Contender
unknown777
Con (against)
Tied
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HOMOSEXUALITY a political idea as opposed to a sexual preference

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/22/2018 Category: Politics
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 828 times Debate No: 114172
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (21)
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mosc

Pro

The first law of thermodynamics, the law of entropy: that which exist in a state of order tends to go into a state of disorder. This first law of thermodynamics, it seems to me answers the baffling question: why is America going into a horrible condition of social anarchy and chaos wherein people for no reason commit mass acts of murder and violence.

As a Jew, my people (in theory) have a brit alliance not to do acts of theft, oppression, sexual perversion, and judicial corruption to or among our brit allied people. Clearly allot of Jews reject this dedication of the destiny of the Jewish people, its called among our people as assimilation, embracing the cultures and customs of alien people who do not accept the Torah revelation of Sinai. Specifically none Jewish cultures and/or civilizations who have never accepted the Torah revelation of Sinai to this day. The Hebrew Bible, the Book of Numbers, 3 tribes guarded the North, 3 tribes guarded the South, 3 tribes guarded the West, and 3 tribes guarded the East. Keeping guard to the tohora of the Mishkan means maintaining the moral compass of the Jewish people.

The prophets of Isaiah and Ezekiel taught a "mussar"/ethical rebuke applicable to all generations/ which the Talmud [Mishna and Gemara Common Law codification] refers to as "chariot mysticism", established by the greatest Rav of his generation, Rabbi Akiva. The chariot has four faces: the face of a man, lion, ox, and eagle. Making a simple juxtiposition of the chariot with the tribes guarding the Mishkan/Tabernacle of the Congregation, later Jewish torah scholars refer to the "evil inclination" within the human heart [a spiritual idea] as "the animal soul"; the inclination to go from an ordered society to a society in a condition of chaos and anarchy ie entropy.

What defines the "soul of the animal" within the human heart? The willingness to violate the oath brit alliance not to do acts of theft, oppression, sexual perversion, and judicial corruption. In the Jewish tradition all Jews have a commandment to remember the salvation from Egyptian slavery. This means that all Jews should take upon themselves the burden not to enslave our people like as did Pharoah in ancient Egypt.

Paying ones' employees a wage which enhances their dignity - the opposite being the oppression expressed in Charles Dickens books of 19th century England. When the poor class of society has no hope for improvement, theft becomes rampant.

A people - separate from all other peoples or nations - requires that the people within that unique society/civilization trust one another. If a man rapes his neighbors daughter or wife; if a man buggers his neighbors son causing this child to become a lover of men rather than a father who raises his children to honor and sanctify the oath brit alliance made with the generations, this sexual perversion causes a break down of the essential trust shared among and between allies.

The chariot metaphor speaks of wheels having eyes and the spirit of life lives within the wheels. The language of the Hebrew employs the term gilgulim. A gilgul can be translated as wheels, but it also can have the translation of "generations". The thousands of eyes in the wheels being a metaphor describing the lives of all future born generations.

The idea of exile, qualifies as a chief defining concept of the Hebrew Bible. Adam went into exile from the Garden of Eden. Noah the same, when he and his family retreated into the Ark while the floods killed his entire generation! Political exile which makes refugee populations which have no country of their own, they endure terrible hardships and oppression.

The Hebrew Bible then introduces Avram. The God of Avram tells him, that his future, as yet unborn children, that those generations shall suffer and endure a violent exile. The story of Passover - the redemption from exile. What causes exile?

When future born generation(s) do acts which profane the oath brit alliance: not to do acts of theft, oppression, sexual perversion, and judicial corruption and injustice to all of the people sharing the oath brit alliance. - the sign of this oath brit alliance: circumcision - [its interesting that the sign permanently placed upon the body of all males who have an oath brit obligation to keep and sanctify the purity/tohora of the Tabernacle of the Congregation {its not wood and stone making the Mishkan that have importance, but rather that the God of Avraham, Yitzak, and Yaacov lives within the hearts and souls of the children of the oath brit allies.} that the sign of the brit, located upon the penis]!

How do the generations guard the Tabernacle of the Congregation? [No Mishkan ie Tabernacle even exists today! Proof that the metaphor only serves to teach a greater idea, that the God of the Fathers lives within the hearts and souls of all future generations which sanctify the oath brit faith; Jews do live to this very day! Where does God live? For the people who accepted the Torah revelation at Sinai, this God lives within our hearts and souls - on condition that we keep faith of the oath brit alliance. If the people of the oath brit profane this alliance, as did the generation of Noah, such that a majority of future generations likewise shall profane this alliance, then the decree of exile falls upon the people of the oath brit alliance].

What role does government play in human society? Government gives a stamp of order to society, it also establishes the forms of Government: Parliament, Congress etc. Leadership maintains the stamp of Government order. The first rule of Government, to prevent the society from going into chaos and anarchy resulting in Civil War, the brothers of Yaacov did not go into exile before their crime of selling their brother Yosef into slavery; these actions describe war among brothers, commonly translated as Civil War.

Therefore, based upon this premise, homosexuality constitutes as a fundamental defamation of the oath brit alliance wherein leaders maintain order within society and pass this order as an inheritance to later born generations. Homosexuality practiced by a society chasing hedonism rather than maintaining moral trust among and between allies - it can bring destruction upon a nation and cause a people to lose their independence and become stateless refugees scattered to alien foreign countries; like the Syrian, Iraqi, and Libyan peoples today, like the blacks of Africa sold by their own people into slavery.

The Hebrew Bible favors the death penalty in all cases wherein a person of the alliance violates and profanes this oath brit alliance dedication which permits the people of the land to trust one another. This oath brit alliance compares to a sacrifice dedicated to God. How should society treat a person who takes a holy dedicated sacrifice and sells the meat in the supermarkets as common beef? This question equally applies to an oath brit ally who causes a boy - his neighbor [not limited to a physical location in space] to abandon the oath brit alliance, to so to speak: cause that boy to worship other Gods? Consequently the Torah views the crime of homosexuality as a Capital Crimes offense worthy of the death penalty.

The Book of Number of the Hebrew Bible teaches that the Tribes guarded the Mishkan in a 4 point compass. The Chariot mysticism taught by Isaiah and Yechezkel write of the inclination within the human heart to do evil. Evil these sources define as: that which profanes the oath brit not to do acts of 1) theft, 2) oppression, 3) sexual perversion, 4) judicial obstruction of justice by means of accepting bribes.
unknown777

Con

Wow bible favors death penalty?I order verses please ,I don't think bible supports eye on eye such as capital punishment but only supports 'Turn your left cheek; don't repay evil for evil'.We have an imperfect government where leader can do wrong about giving laws for they have imperfect wisdom such as reforming capital punishment. I understand that you recognized homosexuality as a sexual perversion and the only right sex is for opposite-sex engaged couples. Ofcourse not all Jew in blood are Jewish in religion same in a Christian country where not all are certain about god, You know it's not a suprise that not all Jews in blood believe on God for they search for a physcial god but they see not, some had tried to search for God in Torah but they saw nothing (atleast that's what they think). Animal soul, you mean people with mental disorders? I see, so Jews do not participate on slavering people. The poor class of society always has improvement, it's just their salary, even if they hard work they receive low income. We can't just accept that there's poor and rich when all are equal to hardwork, this is the real theft found in capitalism. I see , incest is wrong .wheels having eyes? I see, so the future generation can be seen by the things that are done in present times. Noah is still part of Adam's generation but you're right about their hardship. To be in exile means to be away from one's home (i.e. city, state, or country), while either being explicitly refused permission to return or being threatened with imprisonment or death upon return, the reason maybe a political issue. yes but being circumcised is not always because of religious beliefs. The God of the Father lives within our hearts and soul?can't god also be seen at science not only in our heart and soul? Yes you are right that. Is because the Government are destined to bring peace at a nation. Lgbt are most likely to be the refugees, sometimes They just rally but dont usually lead to violence, there are some state that doesnt allow lgbt so lgbt's are being oppressed. The god of hebrew bible doesn't favor killing such as death penalty, I base on the ten commandment s and the commandment of Jesus Christ to the rich man 'do not kill', you know, 1234 can be seen visible in this world.
Debate Round No. 1
mosc

Pro

""bible favors death penalty?"" You can find it in the Laws of Moses - the first 5 Books of the Bible.

"" eye on eye "". Means monetary compensation for damages suffered. Basically all courts of law across the world function according to this principle. What's the big deal. Measure for measure its called justice.

""'Turn your left cheek;" New Testament none sense.

""We have an imperfect government "" Theory/Ideal vs. reality/immorality/injustice.

""I understand that you recognized homosexuality as a sexual perversion and the only right sex is for opposite-sex engaged couples."" No. My thesis addressed the macro issue not the micro issue. The general impact of homosexuality upon the general community.

""Of course not all Jew in blood are Jewish"". This has no connection with the subject of the debate.

""not all Jews in blood believe on God"". Me personally: I am an atheist praise HaShem.

""search for God in Torah "". The Name of HaShem its a Spirit not a word. For this reason its forbidden to pronounce it according to the grammer of its 4 letters. This changing a Spirit of Life into a word - this defines the sin of the golden calf. The new testament and koran never once brings the Name of HaShem ever in their Books. This flagrantly violates the first 2 commandments at Sinai. Proof that neither Xtianity nor Islam ever accepted the brit of Sinai. Brit has the mistranslation in both Books written by aliens of covenant. Brit does not mean covenant its a fundamental error. Brit means alliance. Alliance that's a poltical not religious idea.

""Animal soul, you mean people with mental disorders? "" No. Animals operate on instincts. Man as a human being too operates on instincts. For example, a person goes into a rage, or passion, or screams etc which aspect of the brain dominates, the emotional Man or the rational Man? The emotional Man that's just as much a metaphor as the term "animal soul".

""wheels having eyes?"" Sorry but you lack Hebrew language skills. No problem but Jews we're a tiny people not like Americans. You know what a pun is? Gilgal and Gilgul [Hebrew employs only consennants it has no vowels, a person who speaks Hebrew reads and pronounces word in context . For example kodosh vs. kadasha - both share the identical root which means holy. [Holy: a thing dedicated to HaShem] Kodosh means holy whereas kadasha means prostitute. Gilgal means wheels whereas Gilgul means "reincarnation".

""I see, so the future generation can be seen by the things that are done in present times."" No. Just as abortion effects the lives of people born into the future so too a 20 trillion dollar national debt effects the lives of people born into the future.

""To be in exile means to be away from one's home "". Explain that to the Syrian refugees or the Iraqi refugees or the Libyan refugees.

""The God of the Father lives within our hearts and soul? No. HaShem swore an oath alliance/brit with Abraham Isaac and Jacob. Hence fathers not father - the latter confuses the new testament mythology Jesus son of Zeus.

""can't god also be seen at science"" No. One of the faces of idolatry, limiting the Gods to 3 physical dimensions. An idol represents a 3 dimensional diety. Jesus son of Zeus the Xtians require that he physically lived. Science stands upon empirical evidence - physical evidence. The scientific method does not permit any other type of evidence. This places science on the identical plane as Jesus son of Zeus and an idol of a fertility god.

""Is because the Government are destined to bring peace at a nation."" No. Peace never existed international affairs. Peace with ones' family and neighbors, that's an intirely different matter all together.

"" there are some state that doesnt allow lgbt so lgbt's are being oppressed"" No. Its the responsibility of a society to determine its basis. A society which rejects hedonims as immoral has the right to demand that lgbt's, pimps, prostitutes etc have no right to live within their society. These human scum can move to California.
unknown777

Con

Man, death penalty contradicts to the ten commandment. Eye on eye means repaying evil by doing evil, the big deal is there's no good at it. Nonsense? Well your not a christians so I understand you. It's reality, if we have a perfect government then there's no chaos inside the country. My thesis is also about micro issue, i talk about the thoughts of lgbt in their daily lives. Haha What, you thank God because your an atheist? Okie I don't use HaShem anyways plus, the only thing in the bible that is only to worthy to follow is to love other people. Animal soul...thanks for the info, we all have animal soul.. Yes ofcourse I lack Hebrew language, I never studied hebrew and I'm not a Israeli. Yeah pun is a type of figure of speech. Don't know why Americans are taller considering they are the first world country and they get more nutrients at the quantity of their food. Those refugees are being accepted to some other countries, let the recuers explain it to them. Well even if he is a deity. Christianity is still healthy to believe in as it teaches others to love tough it have risks to make people do violence in the Old Testament. Man, it's not right to restrict lgbt to live in a country, they can hate the lgbt concept but they should'nt act their hatred for those lgbt is still a citizen.
Debate Round No. 2
mosc

Pro

""Man, death penalty contradicts to the ten commandment.""

Please do not pretend that you qualify as a Torah scholar. You do not speak any Hebrew and rely upon pathetic translations. The Torah employs 4 types of death penalties - depending upon the nature of the crime. Stoning, sword, strangulation, and burning. The most sever cases like murder - death by stoning. A man is taken naked and bound up a 3 story skaffold and pushed face forward upon a jagged stone below. The body explodes upon impact. Sword, a criminal is beheaded. Strangulation, a criminal is buried in sand up to his shoulders. 2 ropes a soft and ruff rope intertwined. The 2 ropes placed around the criminals' neck. The 2 witnesses pull upon the 2 ends of the rope till the criminal dies. Burning, compares to strangulation. Only the witnesses pull the rope till the criminal opens his mouth gasping for air. Then molten lead is poured down the criminals' throat.

"" Eye on eye means repaying evil by doing evil, the big deal is there's no good at it. ""

The Talmud tractate Baba Kama/First Gate, and other Gemaras comment upon the verse Eye for an eye. The Talmud does not make a literal interpretation of what's written in the Torah. The Talmudic understanding of the verse [The Written Torah serves as the Constitution of the Jewish Republic; its the function of the Great Sanhedrin to interpret the intent of the Framer of the Constitution], eye for an eye: equivalent monatary damages for the loss of property, or the value of property. A slave for example qualifies as a piece of property.

"" It's reality, if we have a perfect government then there's no chaos inside the country. ""

Never in the history of mankind has their existed a "perfect government". This Xtian nonesense of man without sin-silly mythology.

""What, you thank God because your an atheist? "" Naturally. Heaven forbid that I should ever believe in the Gods worshiped by Xtians or Muslims. Thank God i am an atheist.

"" is to love other people."" That sounds soo cute. Put a ribbon in its hair! How does the Torah define the term "love"? LOL

"" Don't know why Americans are taller considering they are the first world country and they get more nutrients at the quantity of their food."" A lot of Americans are over weight and fat.

""Christianity is still healthy to believe in as it teaches others to love tough it have risks to make people do violence in the Old Testament. ""

The T'NaCH ie Hebrew Bible bears absolutely no resemblance to the Xtian bible. The T'NaCH [3 divisions: Torah Navii, and K'tuvim] does not employ chapters and verses as does the Xtian translations. Hebrew does not have any vowels. The translations - utterly worthless. Consider the 1st word of the Torah, translated as In the Beginning - what a total joke! Utterly pathetic. בראשית ברית אש ראש בית ב' ראשית Four completely different concepts within One Word.

""Man, it's not right to restrict lgbt to live in a country, they can hate the lgbt concept but they should'nt act their hatred for those lgbt is still a citizen. ""

A totally reactionary statement. Ever hear of Martin Luther King Jr. or Jim Crow laws? Women did not get the right to vote until the 1920s! According to the Framers of the US Contitution, only white, educated, land owning males enjoyed the right to vote. I totally agree with the founding fathers. Peasant uneducated rabble have no merit to influence the leadership of the American Republic. Democracy, that alien word, not once employed in the Declaration of Independence nor in the Contitution of the United States.

Lgbt can move to the defiled state of California.
unknown777

Con

Honestly man, you do not sound like an atheist.
We said the same thing, There has no perfect governmebt that had existed.
To love your enemies, to love youe neighbour.
Yesh since they are the 1st world country they are more likely to have more food
I have heard , we have some history where women are being mistreated. Good thing to californi then, They should be accepted as a citizen.
Your saying Bible didnt came from Torah, no wonder there are speration between Jews and Christian
Haha, alright alright. You thank God because you are an atheist
These translation makes it complicated. Eye for an eye literally means loss for loss not just "a loss'
I'm not pretending to be a qualified scholar of Torah, dont worry. I think it is just right to show mercy to the Inmate.and we can give justice without doing violence.
Debate Round No. 3
21 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by mosc 3 years ago
mosc
Bunk. Rav Ashi and Rav Ravina mixed halachot together with Aggadot. Rashi's teaching of p'shat on the Chumash, the defining quality of his sh'itta: he employed aggadita or midrashim to determing the p'shat of the p'sukim. Rashi's sh'itta of p'shat on the Talmud totally contradicts his sh'itta of p'shat on the Chumash. That's totally forbidden. No Tanna or Amora ever changed their sh'itta in mid stream. All Tannaim and Amoraim learned by their logic sh'itta from alef to tav NOT from alef to mem with one sh'itta and from nun to tav with a different sh'itta. Yet Rashi did!!! How and Why? The foundation by which to learn the Talmud stands upon the foundation of the Chumash. Rashi had no intention of teaching Goyim [they closely examined all Jewish scholarship, the church held a very hostile view of the Talmud]. Rashi's p'shat on the Talmud limited itself to teaching how to correctly read a page of Gemara. Reading a law book does not qualify as learning law. The Talmud - its a Common Law legal system: Case/Din in the Mishna; difficulty/answer in the Gemara. Why does the Gemara bring other halachic rulings, apparently totally not related with the subject of the Mishna? Common law works by means of precedents. A Mishna of Bra'kot discusses XYand Z. The Gemara brings halachot from Shabbot and Nidda and Baba Kama. Each external halacha the Gemara sages bring as a precedent by which to learn the depth intent of the Mishna. Difficulty: perhaps the halacha brought from Shabbot or Nidda, or Baba Kama does not serve as the closest precedent possible? Answer: the t'rutz shows that the halacha qualifies as a good precedent. Or te'ufta: that halachic precedent the Gemara rejects. This style sums up the entire learning of the Sha's!

Therefore p'shat in the Talmud links halachic actions with Aggadic mussar -- which defines p'shat in the Gemara. The Rambam grossly erred on this basic learning. Jews do not keep halacha b/c its written in the Shul'chan A'ruch!!!
Posted by judaism 3 years ago
judaism
"The halachot of the Rambam stand divorced from the mussar aggadita of the Sha's. This totally violates the intent of the halacha as codified by Rav Ashi and Rav Ravina."

Wrong.
Posted by mosc 3 years ago
mosc
Fraud. My religious observance is better than you religious observance. Utter and total none sense. Brit means alliance. The issue of keeping the Tora does not debate whether you wear your socks inside or outside of your pants! The issue of keeping the Tora, can Jews cease hating one another ... can Jews make a brit alliance with their people? That's the issue. The Talmud teaches a strong mussar. What caused the g'lut destruction of the Jews of Judea under the Romans? Not Titus and his legions but rather hatred without cause among and between our own people!

The halachot of the Rambam stand divorced from the mussar aggadita of the Sha's. This totally violates the intent of the halacha as codified by Rav Ashi and Rav Ravina.
Posted by mosc 3 years ago
mosc
Moshiach its a major concept. Moshe the prophet never discussed this major concept of the Torah? In 2 weeks is parshat Korach. Why did the earth swallow Korach and its relevent to all generations? How was Moshe the humblest of all men? Moshe stood in the same shoes as king David. The humility of Moshe, he anointed his brother as the head of the house of the bnai brit people. David stands in the shadow of Moshe. Therefore David too acknowledged the house of Aaron as the head of the house of klall Yisroel. He commanded his son to build the Temple as a sign that Aaron was the head of the house of the Jewish people holy and forever.

We call out on YOM Kippor not shabbot the 13 middot. duh. A child calls out the words, a scholar knows what the words mean.
Posted by judaism 3 years ago
judaism
Oh! And by the way, I didn't have to ask anyone for this. I know it by heart.
Posted by judaism 3 years ago
judaism
(11) He is pesha, meaning, G-d allows us, even sinners, to argue with Him without punishment. (12) He is v"hata"ah, He won't punish us for sins we were unaware of, or sins we were careless to make, or those made out of apathy. Lastly, (13), He is merciful and forgiving, wiping away the sins of those who repent, but if one lacks teshuva, He doesn't cleanse the sin(s). All this was taught from Torah, and compiled by the Rabbenu Tam and Abudraham. It was the Kabbalists who added an addition: Say the 13 Middot when taking the Torah out of the Ark during Pesach, Shavuot and Succos. Then, we say, "Master of the universe, fulfill my heartfelt requests for good." By this, we mean to say that all our motives are done for good alone. Mosc, you should know we don't say them on Shabbat.

I just proved to you (once and for all, I hope!) that I know my stuff. I'm a Jew too y'know. And I am MORE Jewish than you, because I follow the halachic standard and Rambam.
Posted by judaism 3 years ago
judaism
Mosc, I'm afraid you're confusing the term Mashiach. It means "anointed." Aaron was a Mashiach, so was David. But we're talking about the Mashiach ben David and Mashiach ben Joseph, unless you don't believe in them.

Hence, what Rambam was saying was that we don't have to wait for the Mashiach ben David to arrive before we can do aliyah. If anything, we should help build the Beit HaMikdash to make his job easier!

For once you admit Akiva made a mistake. GOOD! GOOD!

All Jews (me included) know that HaShem is Holy, not the building itself. G-d is with every aidah. Rosh Hashanah 17b says that G-d (metaphorically) wear tallit, it's why we do so now when we cite the Selichot. HaShem taught Moshe the 13 middot after the golden calf incident. G-d then told him that whenever we pray and recite it, He'll forgive us. Remember v"nakeh lo y"nakeh? Repetition stresses the action. When the rabbis cut off the verse AFTER v"nakeh, they were suggesting that G-d can forgive ALL sins. Here are the 13 middot, let's see if I know them, you claim I don't, well, let's see:

(1) is merciful for all sins, even future ones. (2) He is merciful after the sinner has gone astray; (3) G-d (El) rules over all nature, therefore, His mercy surpasses His own Name! (4) G-d is full of rahum, hence, He eases the punishment of sinners and never gives them more than they can bare. (5) G-d is full of v"hanun (grace), even to those who don't deserve it. (6) He is ereh apayim (slow to anger), delaying His wrath to sinners. (7) G-d is v"rav hesed, even to those who lack good merit (like you), He gives them more gifts then they deserve, and if one's sins are balanced with mitzvot, G-d tips the scales a little towards mitzvot! (8) G-d never goes back on His word to reward us. (9) He is notzeir hesed la-alafim. . . and remembers the good deeds of all, even into the future, for later generations not so righteous. (10) He is nosei avon, forgiving intentional sins as long as one repents. (TO BE CONTINUED
Posted by mosc 3 years ago
mosc
Throwing out a list of names proves nothing.
Posted by mosc 3 years ago
mosc
'Yes, the Amora cannot disagree with a halachic ruling of a Tanna unless he brings forth another source. The principle was established AFTER the Mishneh. '

The Mishna its Common Law. Stand the Tora upon precedents. An Amora requires a precedent by which to "understand" the intent of the Tanna. That's common law and how it works. Rabbi Yechuda and Rav Ashi and Rav Ravina sought to establish the Talmud as the model of Common Law Courts of Law. Such that when the Jews reconquered our homelands that we could employ the Talmud as the model to re establish righteous and just Courts of Law.
Posted by mosc 3 years ago
mosc
Convert or proselytize I do not know you from Adam other than what you write on this blog. You live in g'lut while I strive to re-establish the Torah as the Constitution of the Jewish Republic. You call Xtians your brothers! ewwwwwwwwww how revolting and utterly disgusting.

"most Jews ARE against the death penalty" So. If HaShem blesses me with success and we re-establish the 6 cities of refuges and the schools of the prophets in the 42 levitical cities and the Great Sanhedrin with the power of legislative review ie Mishna Torah to determine the intent of the Framer of the Constitution wherein the Central Court in Jerusalem regulates the laws passed by the State governments with in the Republic, ... then its totally irrelevent what most Jews oppose. The Torah as the Constitution its the basic law of the land.

The revelation of the Torah at Sinai did not stop with the 10 words, LOL. Horev and Sinai the exact same physical location. But spirituality the substance of faith and the physical location of Sinai the forms of faith ... LOL go and learn.
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