The Instigator
FollowerofChrist1955
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
RMTheSupreme
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

HUMANITY IMMORAL/DESTINED to Hell at BIRTH

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 4/4/2018 Category: Society
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 788 times Debate No: 112361
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (14)
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FollowerofChrist1955

Pro

It is a undeniable fact that Humanity is an immoral creature. It is This which sets humanity apart from all other creatures, in that Mankind is incapable of Living a moral life at anytime in its lifetime.

It is alledged that humanity is moral, this is in error and easily proven false! As defined Morality is the act of being Good/Right. This character trait does not exists on Earth nor ever has to anyone born of Man and Woman. To be truthful, one MUST have never lied!, To be Good one must have never sinned! You simply cannot be moral periodically, you either are or are not!

Though not the point of this debate ... it IS this reason Christ was required to pay for the sin debt of Gods creation! It is this reason that prevents Humanity from going to Hell at death. Though the greater part of Humanity itself is and WILL go to Hell, as unrepentant sinners! Just a Fact ... without need for debate!

IF you cannot show by more than opinions that Humanity IS MORAL ... don't take the debate because this is a FACT OF LIFE and IS by EVIDENCE undeniable!

If you cannot SHOW evidence beyond personal opinions Then all are NOW aware of the TRUTH that Man IS IMMORAL, and that God devulges truths to Christians that normal humans (those destined to Hell) cannot see nor understand unless pointed out by Believers of faith!

Rules- Evidence only, not opinions.
may begin with evidence as evidence is provided proving immorality of Man!

Evidence- To be Truthful requires permanence in truthfulness- impossible for humanity!
Evidence- to Be moral requires permanence in moral conduct. Impossible for Man!

everyone on Earth has lied, cheated, and broken Human AND Gods moral laws already in their Lifes, this makes all humanity immoral. Humanity continues to violate the moral laws of Man and God throughout Life, remaining immoral.

This should end all discussions of Morality as a debate as it is now understood that there IS NO MORALITY upon the Earth.
RMTheSupreme

Con

The Debate's Design is Quite Sneaky and Unfair To Con

It is interesting how this debate's resolution is laid out. It's as if Pro has given themselves two ways to win whereas Con is burdened with having to fight both at once in order to win. I am not complaining because I know exactly how to debate against both, but I do think it's unfair and in some ways bad conduct to engage in a debate where you have 2 routes to debate, only one of which has to be won and you get the win while your opponent has to win at both (and you are the one who designed the debate that way, not just accepted another's flawed design).




The Idea That Immorality is Digital, as Opposed to Analogue, Is Something That Has Yet to Be Proven

Pro advocates that morality is something which humans either possess 24/7 or not at all. It's as if the moment you act, think or feel immoral things you then cannot repent for your sins or lead a moral life from that moment forth. Since it would be a trap for me to use the Bible against someone who has not yet stated the Bible to be absolute truth, I'm not going to quote the Bible verses (of which there are many) that directly support the idea that morality is analogue, having many measurements along the scales of immoral actions, thoughts and feelings all of which can be repented for and your level of morality or immorality increased or reduced later on in life regardless of earlier actions leading up to that point.

I ask Pro to explain why you cannot repent and change your ways and why a single act, thought or feeling that can be associated with morality negates all the good and morally positive actions, thoughts and feelings humanity possesses.

I'd also like to point out that if Pro takes that angle that morality is entirely subjective and doesn't really exist, it is them who cannot uphold the resolution as it necessitates morality to be real.




Are We Destined to Hell at Birth?

Since I assume this is not the Hell of Islam, considering Pro's username and references to Jesus as 'Christ', I am going to go into the Bible's Hell and references to links between our moral state as babies and children. The Bible strongly suggests that the burden to prove oneself as moral increases throughout life and thus the reverse of this is that we are born capable of entering heaven and our sins from birth onwards are what can destine us to Hell.


These 2 verses simply help to imply that God likes to protect the little, the vulnerable children:

Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these." (Matthew 19:14, NIV)

"Beware that you don’t look down on any of these little ones. For I tell you that in heaven their angels are always in the presence of my heavenly Father." (Matthew 18:10, NLT)



Here are a couple of verses that tells us that God judges us for actions in our actual body, whether good or bad and not for the 'original sin' as some would have us think:

"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad." (2 Corinthians 5:10, NIV)

"And the little ones that you said would be taken captive, your children who do not yet know good from bad—they will enter the land. I will give it to them and they will take possession of it." (Deuteronomy 1:39, NIV)


It's easy to think that the default is evil since Adam and Eve sinned but Jesus died specifically to counteract that sin making all from that point on neutral from birth. So does a being neutral in morality automatically go to Hell or to Heaven? This is up for debate and it is Pro who claims to know that it is Hell, Con can simply take the stance that it's left very ambiguous and this makes Pro fail their Burden of Proof on that latter Resolution.


Debate Round No. 1
FollowerofChrist1955

Pro

Apparently Con cannot READ! Having provided 0 evidence to prove the actual existence OF MORALITY as stated in the text, Con has already FAILED to comply at ALL LEVELS. Having No proof for Morality at all, merely as requested "not to do" comes to the fro with complete opinion.

Having begun with scathing retorts while blantantly disregarding all rules outright? I hardly think you Con have any place from which to speak of Debate etiquette.

Then as if not complying with the initial rules to not accept on the grounds of sole opinion, he proceeds to do the exact same thing with the scriptures of the Holy text, in DIRECT VIOLATION of the texts he quotes himself? That all may know his error I site the three scripture violations Con defies at onset!

Proverbs 30:6 Do not add to his words, or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar.

Deuteronomy 4:2 Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the LORD your God that I give you.

2 Peter 1:20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation of things.


That any living soul dares to violate with impunity scriptures outright how then can such a one also dare to presume correct applications of said scriptures he quotes while clearly in defiance of the very Text he purports to quote? Thus Con is a deluded believer at most, a pending doomed Soul at worse considering the guaranteed curse that is to be applied for daring such a feat, against a Living God? .... Revelation 22: 19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

it can only be hoped that Con is a SAVED soul, as such a one has no condemnation pending, merely a forfieture of REWARD and Sonship as stated in 1 Corinthians 3:14 & 15

1 Corinthians 3:14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward.

1 Corinthians 3:15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved--even though only as one escaping through the flames.

That remaining to be seen, we proceed;

Let us scrutinize Cons violations with care and concern ... as Con expresses TOTAL OPINION with the intent to decieve?


Con states-
Con can simply take the stance that it's left very ambiguous and this makes Pro fail their Burden of Proof on that latter Resolution.

Clearly flawed intellect in that Con readily states non existence- Note the term AMBIGUOUS




am·big·u·ous


adjective: ambiguous



( open to more than one interpretation; having a double meaning.



unclear or inexact because a choice between alternatives has not been made.

There IS nothing to be ambiguous on ... it IS or ISN't, not a maybe ... otherwise is it not merely an OPINION?

I submit my fellow readers-
IS it even possible to PROCLAIM a Person TRUTHFUL ... if he IS KNOWN to LIE on occassion?
Clearly one need no Degree in the sciences to recognize a person who Lies on occassion is a NOT TRUTHFUL at ALL.

What of Morality itself? Are you GOOD, when you cheat, steal, lie ONLY ON OCCASSION? Usually good? IS NOT GOOD! Therefore as in the exmple above the Person IS IMMORAL in CHARACTER, how can this be denied?

Well yes he IS moral, only having adulterous affairs every blue moon? INDEED!
No, No, He IS TRUTHFUL .... mostly. uh-huh!

Have YOU ALSO gone to the extent of ignorance that Con finds himself? Need I refresh your memory of what the english language says is true?


TRUTH- (of a person or statement) telling or expressing the truth; honest.
does it state .... occassionally?

Moral-concerned with the principles of right and wrong behavior and the goodness or badness of human character. the extent to which an action is right or wrong.
(does this state on occassion?)

Thus Con was IMMORAL in accepting this debate under FALSE pretenses ... HE LIES! Complaining of the nature and Structure of the debate, then in BLATANT VIOLATION of the debate rules himself.

Had He merely placed them IN the comments section he would have been at the very least correct, if not dishonest in the USE of opinions only! Knowing full well, he POSSESSED NO EVIDENCE to the contrary of the topic! OPINIONS are not evidence, to include personally interpreted scriptures carried out of context, and completely devoid of truth!

Revelation 14:10
10 he too will drink the wine of God’s anger, poured undiluted into the cup of His wrath. And he will be tormented in fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment will rise forever and ever. Day and night there will be no rest for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”…

Behold the Word ... unlike Con I will "NOT" tell you what to believe ... i shall do as REQUIRED by scripture ... to present the Gospel as told to do in Mark 16:15

15And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.…

see if you can underline the part where it says to tell you WHAT THE SCRIPTURE MEANS? Not there is it! Con failed to do this HE TOLD YOU what to believe (and it's WRONG)

Cons blashemy- Here are a couple of verses that tells us that God judges us for actions in our actual body,and not for the 'original sin' as some would have us think:


Cons blashemy- These 2 verses simply help to imply that God likes to protect the little, the vulnerable children:

God never IMPLIES ... he states or he does NOT state! it is expressly forbidden for Believers to IMPLY in the scriptures, that is ADDING or TAKING AWAY from the scriptures, by the adding of HUMAN PERCEPTION!

Just out of curiosity? Have you ever wondered ... if THERE'S ONLY ONE GOD? WHY is there 43,000 Christian Denominations in the World ALL claiming to be right? Ever wondered this? Cause I can tell you the exact reason and TRUTH if you want to know it ... but it's really off the subject. I'll include it in my next response if somebody really wants to know the REAL ANSWER! But for now onward we go!




Con states-I ask Pro to explain why you cannot repent and change your ways and why a single act, thought or feeling that can be associated with morality negates all the good and morally positive actions, thoughts and feelings humanity possesses.

SINGLE ACT? yeah we all have ONLY a single act. OPINION and not even a realistic opinion con. Nobody only is immoral ONCE in life ....DUH! Just gonna fantasy your way through this huh?



Con states-I'd also like to point out that if Pro takes that angle that morality is entirely subjective and doesn't really exist, it is them who cannot uphold the resolution as it necessitates morality to be real.

READ the TOPIC FOLKS-
HUMANITY IMMORAL/DESTINED to Hell at BIRTH



Con states-
Are We Destined to Hell at Birth?

The Bible strongly suggests that the burden to prove oneself as moral increases throughout life and thus the reverse of this is that we are born capable of entering heaven and our sins from birth onwards are what can destine us to Hell.

Again con attempts to TELL YOU what to believe BEFORE he uses scripture.

I on the other hand am OBEDIENT, therefore I will just SHOW YOU what God says about the subject!

1 Corinthians 15:21-23
21For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in his own turn: Christ the firstfruits; then at His coming, those who belong to Him.…

Before I place the next scripture look at the ending of the statement? I remind you of Cons lies.

Con stated- It's easy to think that the default is evil since Adam and Eve sinned but Jesus died specifically to counteract that sin making all from that point on neutral from birth.

Now LOOK at the ending statement? and identify Cons lie for yourself! Here Read it yourself-those who belong to Him.…

IF Con was RIGHT?
ALL SHOULD belong TO HIM, this statement would NOT have been necessary ... if Jesus DEATH NEGATED Adams judgement of death upon Humanity ... WHY is THIS STATING FOR THOSE WHO BELONG TO HIM?

You don't KNOW Jesus do you?
Then you DO NOT BELONG to Him ... you SEE? Means HELL IS WAITING for you to DIE, each day, every day ... no exceptions, except myself as a Believer who BELONGS to Christ, My Brethrens who also belong to Christ, and maybe Con, if he is merely a denominationalist ... then he's completely wrong BUT SAVED, cause Salavation IS FREE!

Oh yeah the other scripture on the REASON your going to Hell ... Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned--

SEE, God ISN'T sending you to Hell ... your GOING to Hell because your Adams kids! And as the scripture points out-Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people,

So quit saying a LOVING God would NOT send a person to Hell! Now you know God isn't sending you there ... you were GOING THERE at Birth BECAUSE OF ADAM, not God. God IS the one who has made a WAY for you to be RESTORED TO HIM!

BUT? YOU have to go TO HIM to get it! Capish!
Most just go the Athiests route ... IF I DON'T BELIEVE ... it won't be TRUE?
UUUUUH ...... YEAH, that IS one way to go?






RMTheSupreme

Con

If We Were Born Destined to Hell Would Pro Admit This?

"Cons blashemy- These 2 verses simply help to imply that God likes to protect the little, the vulnerable children."

I'm pretty sure babies are very little and very vulnerable meaning if we die at birth we go to heaven, meaning we are not destined to Hell at Birth.

Burden-of-Proof and Morality


I do not have to prove the existence of morality, Pro has to prove that humanity is immoral. I need only argue that Pro has failed to prove this and Pro loses the debate on the resolution 'humanity is immoral'. In fact he only wrote 'humanity immoral/destined to hell from birth' so even though he lacks an 'is' after 'humanity', I won't troll by attacking the grammar since it's quite clear he meant to write 'humanity is immoral and/or destined to hell from birth' when he says 'at' what he really means is 'from' but if he wants to only focus 'at' the birth, most of my points defeating it are still going to stand.



Rules and Disregarding Them

I have broken no rule of the website in this debate nor rule of the debate itself. I supplied reasoned argumetn with evidence, not pure rhetoric opinion (which was indeed a request by Pro to avoid in Round 1 that I have upheld).



The Bible Verses Pro Provides

I shall analyse these one-by-one and keep the analysis relevant only to the resolution.


1) Proverbs 30:6 Do not add to his words, or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar.

I believe that here, Pro is pointing out that if he added to my words (such as quoting me and directly rebutting) he feels he'd only be adding to my ability to rebuke him and prove him to be a liar. I guess he's right, I would rebuke him and prove him to be a liar. The lack of rebuttal, however, doesn't win him any credibility.


2) Deuterenomy 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.
https://www.biblegateway.com...

I reworded this to exact verse for the sake of authenticity. If I am understanding correctly, he just compared adding to my arguments as adding to what God commands and further implies to to take away from my arguments would be subtracting from God's commands. Thanks for comparing me to God and my word to his commands, I really appreciate that level of admiration but I must humbly decline this comparison for I am not the almighty God.


3) 2 Peter 1:20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation of things.

Alright then. I'll agree to that. Let's negate the whole bible then? If the whole Bible is to be negated on the grounds that it's not the prophet's interpretation of things, we can say the resolution cannot be proven true since it relies on the Bible or at the very least the Qur'an but thus far, no Qur'an verses have been mentioned by Pro.


4) Revelation 22: And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.
https://www.biblegateway.com...

All I can think that Pro is trying to get at here is that I shouldn't add to any Bible quotes. If I don't add to them then I can't analyse them and debate about interpretations ofthem that negate the resolution and thus Pro's case. I don't understand how we can have a debate without adding to the Bible verses with words and evne Pro wrote his own words in his debates that clearly have added to the Bible verses since the words don't equal zero.


5) 1 Corinthians 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
https://www.biblegateway.com...

I think that my work abides by the case I am building it upon so yeah, thanks, I look forward to my reward.


6) 1 Corinthians 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
https://www.biblegateway.com...

So, if Pro loses this debate, he shall be saved by fire. That's alright then, he can let his work get burned by me then, at least he'll be saved by the fire.

7) Revelations 14:10-11
This is a funny one. He gives no context of the quotes so I will:

Revelations 14:6-12

6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.


As you can see, 10 and 11 were referring to those who take Satan into their hearts and worship him. Even if the person does so, it is explicitly pointed out in the last line that I quoted that the Saints are patient and repentance has yet to be proven to be unattainable even when one is this far gone.


8) Mark 16:15-16 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

This quote applies to those capable of doing so. It does not apply to a baby, incapable of doing so. That means that we must look to other verses to see what God's default judgement of a birthed baby is before concluding that one who cannot spread his word is going to be judged as (by default) evil.


We Are Not Born Sinners, Jesus' Sacrifice Negated All Sin Up Until That Point

Towards the ending of Pro's Round 2 is incessant rambling about whether or not we are still to be held guilty for the sins of Adam and Eve. I am of the school of thought that we truly are not held responsible for that anymore because what happened at Jesus' death was the following:

1 John 2:1-2 (NIV)
1
My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

In John 2:2 it is very clearly implied that even the Original Sin (which occured in this world, did it not?) it being atoned by the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin.

'He' is Jesus in this quote.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Galatians 3:13-14
13 C
hrist redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.”[h]

Quit it with the One-Sin-Breaks-All Analogy to Lying

You can lie once in a while and be regarded as a very honest, trustworthy person. You could lie about your weight, your height... Anything that isn't too significant and as long as you do it a significant minority of the time you'd be regarded as an overall honest, trustworthy person. How exactly does one lie make you a liar?

If that's true then why isn't it that telling the truth one time makes someone who lies the rest of the time suddenly be a truth-teller?

This black-and-white all-or-nothing mentlaity is not at all what God suggests in the Bible.

I could give you a ton of Bible verses that show god encourages people to seek to become moral no matter what their past has been and that they are to be forgiven and considered moral if they do keep up with their new way of life, but a ton is too many for just one debate:

Luke 17:3-4 | 3 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him. 4 And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him."

Matthew 3:8 Produce fruit in keeping with repentance.

Luke 5:31-32 | 31 Jesus answered them, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. 32 I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”

Acts 3:19 Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord.

2 Corinthians 7:9-10 | 9 yet now I am happy, not because you were made sorry, but because your sorrow led you to repentance. For you became sorrowful as God intended and so were not harmed in any way by us. 10 Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death.


I could go on and on and on.

You have yet to prove that we are all immoral or even born that way.
Debate Round No. 2
FollowerofChrist1955

Pro

My apologies to the Readers. The evidence that Man IS immoral stands! That Con has begun to TITLE his opinions which was against the rules of acceptance.


As to scripture? Note Con's own statement- I'm pretty sure, I do not, I need only argue, I won't troll by, I have, I supplied, I have upheld reasoned, I shall analyse, I believe that, I guess, I would, I reworded, I am, I really, I must, I am, I'll agree, I can think that, I shouldn't, I don't, I can't, I don't understand, I think that, I am building, I look forward, I will, I am, I could give, I could go on

Number of times Con used I in one period of argument, just 1 period of argument= 29

Pro- I hardly think, I site the three, I submit, Need I refresh, i shall do, I can tell,I on the other, I place , I remind, I DON'T,

Number of times Pro used I in all arguements combined = 10 in ALL ARGUEMENTS COMBINED!


Now the answer to the number 1 question Athiests ask:
IF there is only 1 God WHY is there 43,000 Christian Denominations, all claiming to be the RIGHT ONE?


ANSWER- Because ALL of them have a SINGULAR BELIEF, not 43,000! All Christian Dnomination profess Christ as Lord- THAT is all that IS REQUIRED to be SAVED! They differ in HOW they Worship Christ!

Romans 10:9 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Conclusion: you CAN be saved in any ONE of the 43,000 Denominations that profess Christ!

BUT they all believe something different? YES they do and THAT has NOTHING to do with SALVATION because salvation is FREE!

Well then how DOES it effect THEM? As a member of a Denomination the Believer FAILS TO MATURE IN CHRIST! Like Con.
You see Bcause they ARE in continuous violation by BELIEVING what THEY WANT TO, instead of submitting to God! SAVED IS ALL they will recieve when they go before Christ! Con has been TELLING YOU WHAT TO BELIEVE before using scriptures- THIS IS a Denominational Failing consistent with them ALL!

unlike Con, the EVIDENCE IS CLEAR AND PROVIDED as God intended- not manipulated by Man- pay attention to Christ OWN Statement for Discipleship?

Luke 9:23 23 Then he said to them all: Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross daily and follow me.

Mark 8:34 34 Then he called the crowd to him along with his disciples and said: Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me.

Matthew 16:24 24 Then Jesus said to his disciples, Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me.

Luke 14:27 27 And whoever does not carry their cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.

NOTE* The inheritance of Kingship and Priesthood was not mentioned because those belong only to the Disciples themsleves (spoken of in Revelation 3:21 21 To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne.

As Con is not destined to be a disciple for refusal to die to himself - the REASON he use's I almost exclusively, where in a mature believer "I BELIEVE" is NEVER HEARD or USED!

in the entire debate the use of I was limited to 10 uses, while Con in a SINGLE ARGUMENT used I, 29 different Times. If you want to know how MANY Con used in his entire combined arguement? Feel Free to count? OH and do not COUNT the ones USED in the quoting of scripture ... because their quotes!




RMTheSupreme

Con

Do you think you are bad? Am I bad? Maybe, maybe not... I feel good though!
http://www.youtube.com...
Okay, I had sections and nicely laid out my debate but apparently this is a violation of rules?

Wrong.

I can lay it out nicely as I like and it doesn't mean it's baseless opinion. It's completely based on opinion and the readers can see the illogical methodology with which you've drawn your conclusions because I lay out crystal-clear the Bible verses that prove you wrong on each and every point you raise, yes indeed!

This is very simple.

I forgot to mention that a quote after John 2:1-2 was John 3:5.

I conclude that Pro has totally failed to uphold their BoP and has resorted to baselessly accuse me of breaking debate rules and using 'I' too much instead of actually addressing a single one of my Round 2 points in any coherent manner (let alone my Round 1 where he rebutted by stating irrelevant verses to the debate).

I really don't see a single thing I need to add here and this is why I stalled posting the Round 3 for so long. I was shocked that I had absolutely nothing to reiterate or defend, my opponent truly lost his mind in Round 3 and went on some manic rant that had nothing at all to do with the debate. He doesn't like my style of debating, that's fine but not reason to tell me I broke any rules.
Debate Round No. 3
14 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by missmedic 3 years ago
missmedic
You do not need to prove me right, but thank you................................
Posted by FollowerofChrist1955 3 years ago
FollowerofChrist1955
missmedic;
Quote-"The pursuit of truth is a very high-sounding label for what is much more often the pursuit of righteousness. And more specifically, of self-righteousness. As what the 'truth-seeker' is really seeking is the presumed right to insist that his own ideas about what is real and what is true be accepted as such by everyone else, because he believes that anyone that disagrees with him must, by logical default,"

The entire statement is incorrect! The fundamental difference is that 90-95% of Believers NEVER attain Disciple status.

The significant difference between the Disciplles of Christ and the Denominations (All of Them). is the understanding that God commanded at the first meeting between believer and God!

That God is Sovereign! That God is The All in All, and that ONLY HIS WILL matters.
The disciples by reason of Dying to SELF, are the only ones aware, that ... the entire encompassing TRUTH of the Bible is that Maturity in the Word cannot be obtained b Denominational Believers. Neither will they ever quicken in Spirit because of willful disobedience which they maintain throughout their life times. Thus the shall never attain Priest/King Status, neither are they Son's and Daughters of God.

These Denominations Believers are identified in 1 Corinthians 3:14 and 15. The ones who receive rewards versus the ones who are SAVED alone!

Though it is revealed readily in the Word, it is overlooked by those who are or will be saved alone, by their overpowering self absorption of what THEY believe which they shall never realize is not what God Believes, despite being WARNED in the scriptures of this very point!

Isaiah 55:8-9
8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.

9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

a closed mind never learns.
Posted by missmedic 3 years ago
missmedic
If we can subjugate our egos, however, what we can pursue, as an alternative, are values. Values like honesty, civility, reason, and mutual respect. If we can't be "right", we can at least be kind. And wise. And helpful to each other. And this is the challenge to both theists and atheists, alike. To set aside the egos, and to accept that we humans don't get to know THE TRUTH. And the more we think we do know it, the more dishonest, uncivil, irrational, and disrespectful we become. Proving that we are wrong to everyone but ourselves.
Posted by missmedic 3 years ago
missmedic
I think the fundamental difference between these two expressions of believer and nonbeliever is the difference between the pursuit of truth, and the pursuit of values.

The pursuit of truth is a very high-sounding label for what is much more often the pursuit of righteousness. And more specifically, of self-righteousness. As what the 'truth-seeker' is really seeking is the presumed right to insist that his own ideas about what is real and what is true be accepted as such by everyone else, because he believes that anyone that disagrees with him must, by logical default, be opposing truth (and thereby promoting falsity). Activity that the 'truth-seeker's' ego finds loathsome and unacceptable.

Whereas the pursuit of value is usually far more humble, social, and practical. It presumes that what works the best for the most, is better than whatever doesn't, regardless of whether we can prove it's supposed truthfulness, or not. These are the Christians who believe in Christianity because it helps them to be better, happier people, and who understand and respect the choice of others to do the same, or not to. We rarely encounter these people on sites like this because they are not ideological proselytizers. And they do not presume that their own personal idea of God and truth is "The Truth" that everyone else must accept, or suffer the consequences for not accepting.

To pursue value, rather than truth, requires humility. It requires us to accept the idea that what we perceive and believe to be true, may be true for us, but that it may not necessarily be perceived and believed to be true for everyone else. That none of us knows the 'ultimate truth', and that what truth we do possess is relative and variable. This means we have to subjugate our egos, which will strive, by any means available to it, to insist that our truth is THE TRUTH, above all else and beyond all reasoning.
Posted by RMTheSupreme 3 years ago
RMTheSupreme
Gospel tells me I'm a good guy! :D
Posted by FollowerofChrist1955 3 years ago
FollowerofChrist1955
RMTheSupreme ;
Win? nonsense, voters care less for truth, I am not here to win anything, I'm here to awaken as many as possible to the TRUTH of the Gospel. that there are 43,000 Christian Denominations has revealed the apostatcy that HAS overtaken the Church, and this so close to Christ return.

I merely provide truths of the gospel as presented by the gospel. Unlike the denominations which wrongly attempt to TELL people what to believe, I present pure Gospel, allowing God to reveal the meanings as God revealed in His word.

John 6:45, Isaiah 54:13, 1 Thessalonians 4:9, 1 john 2:27, Philippians 3:15, 1 Corinthians 2:6, Ephesians 1:7.

But ill not waste time upon a believer who refuses to submit to Christ, but will leave you to your place, as you have received ample evidence of the lies you spread by reason of your teaching of Men rather than God. No matter, the evidnce is before all, your overindulgence of yourself is well documented vis avis your persistent and perpetual use of the wrong usof terms. You reveal in every word your serving yourself only. I Believe, I Think, I , I , I

There are more to reach, you therefore are left to the one you worship ...YOU!
Posted by RMTheSupreme 3 years ago
RMTheSupreme
Then perhaps you should submit to me and obey me. Why are you trying to dominate me and win? ;)
Posted by FollowerofChrist1955 3 years ago
FollowerofChrist1955
RMTheSupreme;
You still refuse to open your eyes!
God requires FULL SUBMISSION. You are not to "Think" you are to OBEY.

Luke, Mark, and Matthew make Disciples requirements very plain. As slaves of God, we are to renounce our own thoughts, wants, beliefs and Ways for the Fathers WILL.

Revelation 3:21 is the "Key"
Notice Christs satatement! EVEN AS I overcame!

Remember that throughout Christ lifetime, He made a point of informing ALL that Gods WILL was paramount, denying HIMSELF to accomplish the FATHERS WILL. (He overcame Himself for the sake of the Father)

It is WHY to be a Disciple, Priest and King in Heaven requires this SAME commitment! If you cannot learn to DENY YOURSELF for God, you cannot rule in disobedience to the Father! It simply cannot be done? Because you refuse to LISTEN to instructions, relying instead on YOUR and Mans views OVER Gods. Do you not realize this? It shows in everything you say and do. You follow you, not God. This doesn"t imply unsaved, merely not fully committed. You must sell out to God holding nothing for yourself. You must HAVE no opinions at all, rather allowing the WORD to be the authority to all questions!

What scripture states is my belief and what God decrees IS my opinion. It will s the reason my use of terms such as "I believe" remains forever absent from ALL my debates.
Posted by RMTheSupreme 3 years ago
RMTheSupreme
I'll post my r3 in a few hours, need time to think.
Posted by FollowerofChrist1955 3 years ago
FollowerofChrist1955
thewiseguy1;
The number 1 problem of the apostate Church resides in every SINGLE BELIEVER WITHIN the Church, who by blatant acts of DISOBEDIENCE, have reneged on their Word to Christ!

The act of Baptism ... proves every apostate a liar and a fraud! You stand guilty before the eyes of men and God!
Romans 6:4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

LIAR, you have NOT DIED TO SELF! You are apparently very MUCH ALIVE!

Romans 6:8
Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with Him.

Let all believers take note .... IF

Have you? Have you DIED WITH CHRIST? Or like thewiseguy1, IS SALVATION ALL you will recieve at the Bema seat of Christ?

1 Corinthians 3:15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved--even though only as one escaping through the flames.

Are you as thewiseguy1, only NOW beginning to understand .... perhaps YOU ARE NOT SO WISE! Failing to die to self, storing up for yourselves NO TREASURES in Heaven! Is SALVATION really enough for you?

Because it will be ALL you have for all eternity, UNLESS SOMEONE CAN SHOW SCRIPTURE which confirms you CAN store up treasures in HEAVEN once you ARE THERE!

Don"t bother ... the answer at this point in Time is NO! How is it that you are AWARE that the ANGELS have positions in Heaven, but FAIL to realize that WE SHALL ALSO HAVE POSITIONS IN HEAVEN?

Revelation 3:21 is not talking about the believer in 1 Corinthians 3:14: just as 1 Corinthians 3:14 IS NOT talking about the Believer in 1 Corinthians 3: 15 .... ALL BELIEVERS but in OBVIOUSLY DIFFERENT positions?

You have been informed the rest is yours to chose!
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