The Instigator
Kescarte_DeJudica
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
Draka
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

I Should Stop Working and Go on Welfare

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Post Voting Period
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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 4/19/2018 Category: Miscellaneous
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,320 times Debate No: 112957
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (8)
Votes (0)

 

Kescarte_DeJudica

Pro

Welcome everyone to the debate!

I am back on DDO, debating again, and am glad to be here after taking a significant amount of time off. I've been looking forward to this debate, and believe I will enjoy it, now that I have time with the school semester drawing to a close.

I and my opponent, the esteemed Draka, will be debating on welfare. Specifically, I will be debating that I should stop working and go on welfare. I will attempt to prove to everyone that this is the far better option to the alternative for me, that is, to continue to work.

My opponent's (Con's) position will be to create an opposing argument, at his discretion, using whatever reasons or angles he deems appropriate to the topic.

We ask that you, the audience, maintain civil discretion at all times. Should you vote on the topic, please maintain objectivity, and vote based on the strength of our respective arguments and position's points, rather than your personal opinion on the topic.

Here are the Rules:

-All rounds must follow the Round Outline.

-A forfeited round constitutes an automatic loss.

-Burden of proof is on Pro

Round Outline:

-Round #1 is for acceptance and opening remarks only.

-Round #2 is for making your argument. No rebuttals will be posted in this round. We will make our arguments as a persuasive speech to the audience.

-Round #3 is for Rebuttals. Here we will try to refute our opponent's previous argument.

Round #4 is for Defense. In this round, we will defend our point against the rebuttals made in the previous round.

I very much look forward to this debate. I hope it is entertaining,and educational. Thank you in advance to Draka for participating, the audience for reading, and Debate.org for hosting it.
Draka

Con

Thank you, Pro.

I accept the above listed rules and round outline.

In addition: I would like to note that I am pleased this topic was suggested in the private exchange Kescarte_DeJudica and I have been engaged in, and that he views me as the most suitable opponent for this debate. As we have both agreed, debating the topic of welfare as it specifically relates to one person will provide a unique and refreshing insight into the Pro and Con arguments. Rather than arguing for the collective, we will be arguing for the individual. This debate will not propose what is best for society, but what is best for Kescarte_DeJudica.

Naturally, I intend to show that on balance, the detriments to him receiving welfare as opposed to earning an income through employment are greater than any assumed benefits. My arguments will follow in an orderly fashion, and will comprise of clear and well-presented points throughout. I ask that judges keep one primary question in mind whilst voting: who has the strongest arguments and counter-arguments?

Similarly to my opponent, I expect this debate to be both entertaining and educational.

I look forward to reading his arguments, and I wish him good luck!
Debate Round No. 1
Kescarte_DeJudica

Pro

Introduction

Ladies and Gentlemen of DDO, I've worked hours on this argument. I've re-written the majority of it several times. I wanted to get it just right, because my position on this current topic is the sum total of many events, countless hours of research and various plans which I drew and redrew over the course of the last five years. It is important to me, and I am pleased to present it now.

A Little Background

I've always had an interest in creating passive income for myself. The thought of my money making more money for me, or the rewards of previous effort I had expended coming back to me multiplied several times over, always excited me.

From the age of 14, I realized I would someday have to work 40 hours a week ( or more) to support myself, the same as most everyone else. I hated the very prospect of this. Not because I disliked working, far from it, but because of the obligation, the trap that working was. The thought of having to do the same sort of thing for half my waking hours every day, five days a week, was just awful. I realized I would have precious little time for much else in my life. I searched for a solution, a way out of this seemingly inevitable path I was on.

I tried several things. Read a lot of books about how to become wealthy, bought into some of those mail order schemes, ran businesses like a mowing business. While other kids focus on school, sports, video games, and dating, I focused on finding a way out of the rat race. Depending on who you asked, I was either really mature, or really dumb.

I spent a lot of time on this, but never really got anywhere. Part of the reason for this is because I was underage, so I legally couldn't trade stocks, or buy real estate, or drive myself around. I also stayed home a lot. So, I was somewhat limited in what opportunities I had to take advantage of.

I worked some part time, and some full time growing up. Part time wasn't too awful, but full time was everything I had dreamed it to be. Being gone 8 hours a day, having to get up when the sun was peaking over the horizon, coming home when it was sinking past the mountains. Feeling like the week was blowing by me so quickly, as if I was trapped, missing out on so many good things life had to offer. I couldn't meet up with friends. If someone needed to talk, I couldn't be there. Former neighbors came up to visit for the afternoon, and I completely missed them. As for the money I made... what good was it? I had precious few investment opportunities I was eligible for, and no time to enjoy the things I spent it on.

The Turning Point

Right before I turned 18, I came to a somewhat painful realization. My whole point to trying to find a way out of the rat race was so that I could avoid the seemingly inevitable sentence of spending the majority of my time concentrated on money, and not having time for anything else. But in trying to escape this, I had created a very different version of it for myself! I had denied myself from trying new interests, like starting a YouTube channel, because I had wanted to "wait until I was in a better position." My health had become poor due to staying up late. My relationships with family was a bit worn, and I had little in the ways of friends. I had made my own trap, trying to avoid one I was headed for. And this made me very upset.

I stopped spending so much time trying to generate passive income. I still spent some time on it, but only a more appropriate, healthy amount. I began spending more time on my health, and on relationships with others. Within a year, I had started a YouTube channel, made many friends, and had become closer to my family. I also became more health conscious, starting eating and sleeping better, and tried cutting out bad habits I had formed.

This helped me come to three very important conclusions. First, my life needs balance. If I spend too much time on one activity, everything else will suffer for lack of attention spent on it, such as relationships and health.

Second, it'll be very, very difficult to escape work while I am working to support myself full time as an adult, because I'll have precious little time for much else. And if most of my time is being spent building a secondary source of passive income, I'll have next to no time to focus on health, relationships, and personal interests.

Third, I need to focus more on getting lots of time rather than getting lots of money. My plan had originally always been to obtain a lot of money, and thus be able to buy my time back. But, what if I was to find a way to have a lot of time first... and then use my extra time to obtain the money I needed? This way, I wouldn't have to be working myself ragged, and a lot of the pressure would be off. In addition, I would now have enough time to look after my health and have relationships. It would allow me to be much more flexible, opening up all sorts of opportunities to invest financially, to invest in relationships, to help people who needed a hand up, all sorts of things!

A New Plan

After more research, and several months of working out the bugs, I made a new plan. My plan is to finish college, and work in my chosen field for as long as it takes me to save up a year's worth of living expenses, likely 2-3 years. I will then quit, (or perhaps get fired) and receive welfare. Once I am on welfare, I will spend some of my spare time working to climb out of it, by building up a source of passive income. With the stress of providing gone, I can work on it gradually, when I have time, without being obsessed over it and rushing the process along too much out of desperation.

That is the simplified version of my plan. I could go into more details, but that is for another debate perhaps, due to space restrictions here.

The Incredible Benefits

Once I get to the point where I am on welfare, I will undoubtedly see a large improvement in my quality of life. This will be for several reasons. First, a major portion of the pressure of living by the clock will be gone. I won't have to schedule my day so rigidly. This will allow me to be more flexible in taking life as it comes. If a friend needs to talk, I can talk with him. If my mother needs help moving furniture, I can go over to her house and help her. If a sunbeam looks especially appealing, I can lie in it and soak it up, instead of glancing wistfully at it as I grab my keys and head to the office. Additionally, the lack of a rigid schedule will lead to less stress, and thus better health.

Speaking of which, I'll now have more time to focus on my health. I can spend time cooking nutritious meals, and sharpening my culinary skills, instead of grabbing a quick bite at a restaurant or throwing something quick together at home. I'll have time to exercise. I'll feel better and look better at the same time.

I'll have more time for relationships. I can be there for my siblings, my parents, my friends. And when I get married, the benefits become even greater. I can spend more time with my wife and children. I won't have to be gone from them half the day, and too tired to play with them and show them love and affection the other half. My wife won't have to feel pressure to work and help pay the bills. We can have time for dates, and for taking care of ourselves, and one another. I won't have to miss the special moments that happen at odd times, the wondrous parts of my children growing up. Like when they take their first steps, or learn to ride a bike. They'll have the security of their parents being home with them, and the closeness that brings.

I'll have time to work on building up passive income too, as I already mentioned. I can start little side projects, things I like and am interested in. For example, I believe I mentioned I wanted to start a YouTube channel. I have done that, and not having to work would give me time to work on my channel, something I am actually passionate about. And with time, it could have the potential to grow and support me and my family, so that we can leave the welfare system. And that isn't the only opportunity either, I could try some other things too. And without the pressure of having to make this my ticket out by a certain deadline, I could take my time and enjoy the process.

The Cherry on Top

Perhaps the strongest, and most ironic point of all, is found in the nation's tax system. If I was to try and work to support myself, the government would be weighing me down, by taking 25% of my earnings. What for? To pay for the very system I am planning on using! When I use this system, not only is the government giving me money instead, they are freeing up my time so that I can accomplish my objectives. I can either row against the current, or let the current carry me. Tell me... which sounds like a smarter move to you?

Addressing Concerns

Really, the biggest concerns with this plan are the ethics of it. Some might say I am stealing money from those who "really need it". Those who can't actually work, who the system is "designed" to help.

First off, I have a simple question. What about those receiving Social security retirement benefits? Should these people not be taking their benefits because they don't "need them"? You could say no, because they have paid into the system and earned their benefits. Well, I will have done the same. Having worked a few years, I will have contributed by paying my taxes, and will now be receiving the benefits I have paid for and earned, some of which I would not qualify for if I hadn't paid for them.

As for what the system is "designed for", the welfare system is not designed to help poor people that can't earn their own way. If that were the case, people with phobias of spiders wouldn't qualify as "disabled." And neither would people who have a million dollar net worth, but no income, so they qualify for disability. I'm not stealing, I am meeting the rules, legally, and ethically.

I have run out of space, so I will end my argument here. I look forward to hearing Con's arguments!
Draka

Con

My argument has been uploaded to Google Docs, due to the formatting issues I have encountered here. Note: Pro has been informed of this, and it is to my understanding that he is accepting of it.

Link: https://docs.google.com...
Debate Round No. 2
Kescarte_DeJudica

Pro

Thank you for your argument Con. Following is my rebuttal:

Con's 1st Argument

"It is no secret that if someone intends to become a success -- as success is conventionally understood -- they need to 'work hard'"

I completely agree. Success requires time, effort, resources, all the things that when put together, make up work as we know it. I wish though, that you had provided a more concrete definition of "success." This is where I believe your argument begins to be flawed. You describe success as something that is "conventionally understood." But there is no blanket standard for what defines success, is there Con? No, success varies from person to person, and the only way to measure success is to examine whether one's objectives are fulfilled or not. As failure is the opposite of success, the lack of fulfilled objectives is the opposite of fulfilled ones.

However, objectives are not always one-time finish lines either, they can be ongoing processes. If my objective is to have a family and spend time with them while making sure that have plenty to live well on, then it is something I am constantly involved with, so long as I have the family.

"The only way one can earn enough money to secure a mortgage and raise a family within a comfortable environment, is if they work. Pro has outlined a desire to get married, raise children, etc. but these things require a continual income -- one that has to be greater than the income that welfare would provide."

This is not accurate. First off, securing a mortgage is not necessary to raising a family or to doing well financially, making that an irrelevant point. Secondly, it is not only possible to provide for a family very well on public assistance, but several have done it. The reason for this is that the more dependents you have, the greater amount of welfare benefits you qualify for. This can range from food stamps, housing assistance, earned income tax credit, and all sorts of other things! You can get social security early if you can show that you are disabled (inconsistent work habits can qualify, in certain situations), as well as health insurance paid for by the state, etc. Welfare can pay a decent sum of money, plenty for one person or an entire family, as many of the benefits are proportional.

"Pro states that prior to discontinuing working, he would 'save' some funds for a few years"

Actually, what I said is I would save money to live on during the application period, in between working and qualifying for welfare. As for earning a side income, you can earn a income on the side that, as long as it is not too large, will not affect benefits. Again, what this amount is is proportional to how many dependents you have, and varies per program, but for a single man on disability, it is $850/month. It is very worthwhile to earn this extra money, assuming you can do so in a way that won't defeat the purpose of having extra time to spend with your family.

Source: https://www.disabilitysecrets.com...

Your example is correct, only if the earned income goes above the limit. And you don't lose all your benefits immediately if you earn too much, it is a gradual loss of benefits, and varies per program. This is an added benefit when trying to earn passive income. As your income stream grows, you can afford to let go of benefits, and ultimately get off welfare.

Again, your question assumes that success cannot be had without a high income, which is assuming success is defined as having a high income. In my (Pro's) case, success is defined as having a comfortable income that can provide the needs of myself and family while freeing up our time. If welfare can do that, then success is obtained. And I would like to remind Con, welfare can take sacrifice and patience. Patience to wait on qualifying for benefits. The sacrifice of living differently than the "average Joe", and feeling like the odd one out as a result. But these sacrifices are a small price to pay for time that can be used to improve one's own position, and the position of your loved ones.

Con goes on to make a suggestion that I would be better off spending time and money investing in a business. Having had some experience in owning a business, and coming from a family that has owned and ran their own business as a primary source of income, I would like to point out that this is a potentially dangerous solution. Businesses can take years to get established, and provide an income, and often requires large amounts of capital to begin. While this is fine if you have a support system in place, it is rarely a responsible move if you have a wife and kids to support. Added to this that a business's growth potential is throttled if you are constantly having to use profits to live off of, instead of reinvesting it, and the problems will only keep piling up.

A far more prudent option would be to start a business while on welfare, and switch over to that for a primary means of income once it becomes profitable. However, even then, unless it is to the point where it can run itself for the most part without your constant oversight, this is again a huge liability on one's time. And if the business is at the point where it can run itself, than it would be passive income, which is my whole plan to start with!

Con's 2nd Argument

"I realize that Pro would utilize his time whilst receiving welfare and that he would not necessarily fit the definition of "idle", but what God wishes people to do should resonate with Pro with respect to this issue."

That is correct. As a Christian, what God would have me do is of utmost importance. Con is also correct in pointing out that I would not be idle while on welfare. I would be spending time looking after my health, the health of my family, and doing personal projects, including building a passive income to climb out of welfare with.

Con quotes 1 Timothy 5:8. However, if you look at the context of the passage where the verse is taken from, you can see that it referring to family members being responsible for one another's needs, in context of a widow's offspring providing for their mother and grandmother, who is not able to care for herself. This is not referring to working a job to provide for your family versus receiving assistance from social programs. Indeed, it is not even related. Understanding the context of the Bible is of utmost importance in its application.

In the context of the quote from 2 Thessalonians 3:10, the context of this passage is referring to a command towards members of a community that were idle, disruptive and "busybodies". This is, again, used in a different context. Paul even says that when he was there, and didn't accept food without paying for it, that "We did this, not because we do not have the right to such help, but in order to offer ourselves as a model for you to imitate." (2 Thessalonians 3:9) Also take note of the sentence "settle down and earn the food they eat." This implies the issue is not that that they are not earning their food, but are being troublesome and a nuisance, thus the command to "settle down." One could ponder that they may have been commanded this because they needed something productive to do to fill their time so they wouldn't cause trouble, but that is open to speculation. In any event, this appears to be a far different context than what we are discussing here in this debate.

Con's 3rd Argument

Con references a few sources showing the benefits of being active and staying busy--in the context of working (professionally speaking). However, I do not believe I need to refute these sources, because Con followed them up with a very nice interpretation and application.

Con is correct in his assertion that I would not only remain active while on welfare, but would also find identity in being a father and a husband. However, the assertion that by not providing for my family financially, I could have a low sense of self-esteem and "sense of self" is not accurate, for reasons I will point out. First of all, I would argue I am providing financially for my family. I am receiving benefits, yes, but benefits paid for in part with money I paid into the system over the course of several years. This is comparable to a senior providing for her grandchild while receiving Social Security retirement benefits. Secondly, providing for one's family goes far beyond financial provision. I am tasked with providing love, protection, discipline, spiritual guidance, and many more things. I have much to find identity in. I am a lover, a guard, a teacher, a manager, an assistant, a cook, a janitor, a babysitter, but most of all, a father and a husband. I am a creator, a learner, an innovator, a writer, so many things. Things which I could not be, or not be as well, if my time was taken up elsewhere, as I slaved away for income.

As for squandered potential, my potential would be far from squandered. One can always take part in the mechanics of business, and creating a product one is satisfied with, without profit or obligation being one's main motive. And with having a creative side and a yearning to meaningfully contribute to the world, this would be a natural action, not a forced one.

As for investing in my children's futures, I would like to point out first off that university is neither necessary for all people, nor the best option in some cases. However, should all my children desire to attend a university, there are plenty of programs to help pay for it, some of which are open to all citizens, not just welfare recipients. Even now, I am paying for my own college in this manner, using an educational grant.

As for children following in their parents footsteps, in actuality, children are three times as likely to have a career unrelated to their parents, research shows.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk...

Conclusion

I believe I have properly refuted Con's points. I look forward to Con's rebuttals of my arguments.
Debate Round No. 3
Kescarte_DeJudica

Pro

I've been having some trouble with DDO's glitches these past few days, which is why I am submitting my argument last minute as the case may be.

As such, I, like Con, will be presenting my argument on a page hosted courtesy of Google Documents. Please click the following link to read it.

https://docs.google.com...
Draka

Con

Thank you, Pro.

Likewise, my arguments will be submitted via Google Documents.

Link: https://docs.google.com...
Debate Round No. 4
8 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 8 records.
Posted by Nd2400 2 years ago
Nd2400
Will you hear me out. . . For once. . . .

I don't want to write on this public platform. . .

But i will. . . . If this is the only way to talk. . .
Posted by Nd2400 2 years ago
Nd2400
WE NEED to Talk. . . Don't Ignore this. . .
Posted by Kescarte_DeJudica 2 years ago
Kescarte_DeJudica
@Nd2400:

Thanks, am glad you are enjoying it.
Posted by Nd2400 2 years ago
Nd2400
So, far so good to both of you. Looking forward on reading the rest of this debate...
Posted by Kescarte_DeJudica 2 years ago
Kescarte_DeJudica
Note to the audience:

Con has informed me that sue to format issues, she is uploading her argument to Google Docs and linking it here. Please do not differentiate based on this. It is allowed by the rules and agreed upon by both Con and myself as acceptable for this debate.
Posted by Draka 2 years ago
Draka
Indeed ;)

It's rather irritating how glitchy DDO is.
Posted by Kescarte_DeJudica 2 years ago
Kescarte_DeJudica
xD, I had to do the same on my argument as well. It is a good thing we decided to make the character limit 10k.
Posted by Draka 2 years ago
Draka
I am way past the character limit thus far. I've had to cut some of my second contention, lol.
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