The Instigator
backwardseden
Pro (for)
The Contender
mpatter
Con (against)

I actually met god in a dark back corner of a busy street with the smelly stench of the city

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 7/28/2018 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Debating Period
Viewed: 1,112 times Debate No: 116955
Debate Rounds (4)
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backwardseden

Pro

I actually met god in a dark back corner of a busy street with all the smelly stench of the city and its p**s not too long ago and he invited me into a gay bar. We had an interesting conversation as he was attempting to pimp himself unto me. Well actually we didn"t have a conversation at all. He just sat there dumbfounded. He was on the losing end of course. I did all the talking. I asked him a few simple questions such as "Why have you killed at least 2, 821, 364 in your bible which included babies still suckling on their mothers breasts, Children and pregnant mothers all in one extremely small area of land in the world which all took place in your bible? ". "Why did you wipe out pretty near 100% of all life in which there was no need for it as you have done in the great flood? ". "Why do you hate gays and want to kill them? ". "Why do you hate children? ". "Why do you hate those that curse at their parents and you want to kill them? What if they are abused children? "Why do you hate those that curse at their parents and you want to kill them? What if they are abused children? ". "Why do you hate those that do not worship you and you want to kill them? ". Why should you hate others and get jealous at others because they wish to worship other gods and you thus hate them so much that you wish to kill them? ". "Why do you hate those that work on the sabbath that you wish to kill them? " "Why do you hate those that commit adultery that you wish to kill them? ". "Why do you believe that slavery is a good thing? ". "Why do you believe that rape is a good thing? ". "Why have you committed abortions? ". "Why did you create absolutely no free will whatsoever? ". "Why did and do you create sin knowing all too well that man would fail throughout time ever since Adam and Eve were created? ". "Why did you create evil and hate and satan especially when it was not a need, A requirement nor a necessity? What is it with you that deems it necessary to create this conflict? ". "Why did you lie several times in your bible? " "Why do you love to see, Create, And take part in suffering especially in that of children? ". "Why do you have the need, Requirement, And want for anger, Wrath, Jealousy, Vengeance, Rage, Fury, Evil in which you have freely admitted to? ". "Since you have those "baggage" emotions, That"s not perfection. So why should anyone believe in you? ". "Why did you pass down all those emotions of hate and evil to man so in turn man could learn to hate? ". "Why not do away with all of those emotions completely and instil peace, Harmony, Love, Care, Kindness, Etc etc etc? ". "Why are you a contradictory hypocrite? You say "thou shall not kill" and yet you kill? ". "Why would any supreme deity such as yourself actually place "faith" above everything else as it is the most preached thing in the bible? Surely it should be love, Caring for our neighbors and each other. ". "Why do you have this bombastic blubbering superior "ego" complex in which your bible is entirely about and nothing else? ". "Why would you ever be stupid enough to communicate in text form, The worst form of communication possible so man can get your message wrong all---the---time because there"s a 0% of a chance, And you should know this, But obviously you don"t and you must love the confusion and non consensus, That any text from now-a-days can be traced back to the original. And even if it could, Nobody could interpret it correctly. So again, Why text, The worst form of communication? Why not simply coming on down here and talk to us? . That would be evidence for the whole world to choke on of your existence rather than the non proof of faith and you playing hide-n-go-seek which naturally with my shoulder shrugged is not a pathway to truth and an excuse for christians when they don"t have evidence? ". I had so many questions for him. But naturally, Just like most who are religious as he thumbed his nose to the world, As god himself who does not have an answer for anything as he rightly pretends he does, He ran off into the cold dark of the night like the coward that he is and quickly and quietly disappeared.

The rules are for yours to complete: Answer the questions above.

dsjpk5 will not be allowed to vote in the voting process.
mpatter

Con

I do not believe you met God, Nor went to a gay bar with Him, Nor were able to dumbfound Him. When starting a debate with lies, You have automatically discredited yourself.

That being said, As you are using the Bible as your text, I will too. First, Man chose to introduce sin into the world, Which is the root cause of all of the "questions" you submitted to God (Genesis 3). As it is written: "There is no one righteous, Not even one; (Romans 3:10)". As no one is righteous, There are no "innocent" people, All are born selfish, And unrighteous.

"The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, And that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time (Genesis 6:5)". It was man that chose to be wicked, And their thoughts were evil "ALL THE TIME, " not God's. So, Why did God destroy everything in the flood, I guess it is probably the same reason I throw out rotten fruit. I worry that when I introduce new fruit to my fruit bowl, It will spoil because the original fruit in there was rotten. I just need to throw it out, Wash the bowl, And put in a new fresh crop. If I do not fully clean the bowl of all filth, All new fruit will be contaminated, And be forever cast out, You get the analogy.

Does God want to kill gays? I think the preference from a biblical standpoint was that He did not per say want to kill gays, But instead wanted people not to practice homosexuality. At the time marriages were arranged, And had little to do with love. As such, Any homosexual behavior would be outside of the marriage agreement or vow, And therefore wrong. It would be very similar to how adultery was looked upon, And this answer covers both.

Taking scripture in context, And referencing itself, We see that "His bloodguiltiness is upon him, " or in other words, He knew what he was doing, And chose to otherwise. Deuteronomy 21:18-21 indicates that if there is a rebellious son who does not obey their parents, They will bring him to the elders of the city. First, A parent, Being the judge, Will only bring someone that is pure evil before the elders to be judged, And possibly put to death. Now this is merciful, It does not have the elders judging him, But those who have the most vested interest in keeping him alive, Followed by the judgement by the elders as a check and balance. If the child were abused, As you argue, The elders would hear that, And could then make a decision.

I am jealous for my children when they choose what is wrong. I want them to choose the right, And am jealous when they do not, Much like God does. Also, If you believe that one's eternal destiny is based on their acceptance God, You would not want those who profess otherwise to ruin the salvation of others. "One bad apple" argument.

I do not believe the bible says anywhere that rape and slavery are a good thing. It does have rules surrounding them, But it is not endorsed, Unless you show me otherwise, I stick to my statement.

I do not understand where you get the "no free will whatsoever" statement you add. Even a strict Calvinist would tell you that God's foreknowledge in no way takes away from your free will. As God is timeless, He knows everything, But it does not mean He chose that. An example is that I know my children well enough that I know they are going to eat the sweetened cereal over the wheat bran, But it does not mean I chose this for them.

Man chose evil not God. Man and Satan wanted to be God, Though they were not, And thus lies their sin. Giving free will allows one to choose this good or evil. Would you prefer God choose to remove your free will and force you to follow God, Or would you like to choose free will?

Where does it state that God loves to see the suffering of children? Yes suffering happens, But it is due to our fallen state, Not God delighting in it. Can you provide lies a list of what you see as lies in the Bible?

Why do you ask God why you should believe in Him if you spoke with him at the beginning of your debate? Obviously if you think you saw Him, You would not question His existence.

Do you really want a world without emotions? How could you know happiness if you did not know sorrow?

Language changes. The commandment in modern vernacular is "do not murder" or similar, Only the KJV, Translated in the 1600s, Says thou shall not kill. Murder and killing are different. One can be justified (or not), The other is never justified.

The commandments, Per Jesus, Are two fold; Love God, And Love neighbor. You cannot love God without faith, And faith should lead you to love your neighbor. "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength. The second is this: "Love your neighbor as yourself. There is no commandment greater than these (Mark 12:30-31)".

To me, Text is probably the best form of communication. You ask "why not simply coming on down here and talk to us", Guess what, He did, And look how that turned out. Even with incarnate God on earth, Man still did not believe, And not only this, They seek to put Him to death, And do so. What makes you think that we today are any better in this society than were those of the past that saw the miracles, And still did not use their agency to follow God?
Debate Round No. 1
backwardseden

Pro

"I do not believe you met God, " Well chim chimminy cherry cherry curvaceous curry curry curious blah blah black sheep. Um duh nobody has. Not one person as nobody, Not one person has ---ever--- been able to prove that this god character from a little bitty blank black bile babbling blubbering book has ever been able to prove its existence. So you"ve automatically discredited yourself. And you've also discredited yourself by stating that you are a christian/ protestant when there is no such a thing. Oh christ crispies this is gonna be fon.

"When starting a debate with lies, You have automatically discredited yourself. " Awe gosh golly gee gosh darned it all, So then you do not believe in your god, Because that"s exactly what your wondrous bible did, Which is one major reason why your god, In which you cannot even prove even exists, Did. Genesis 1:26 "And God said, Let us make man in our image, After our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, And over the fowl of the air, And over the cattle, And over all the earth, And over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. "
1. Who is this "us" and "our"? So according to the BIBLE there is more than ONE god. So its either a blatant misprint, Or its a lie. Or its the truth and there is more than one god and YOUR entire religion is false. My that was fun. 2. "and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth" Welp my son who i obviously in kindergarten, That"s also a point blank lie because man certainly does NOT have dominion (domination) by any means over insects, Poisonous insects, Viruses, Bacteria, Microbes, Etc etc etc so YOUR bible point blank LIES before even the first chapter comes to a close. That was fun. Now go bowl your ball down an ally during a silly pity spit off.

I use the bible because that"s all YOU have. All YOUR bible is, Is a superior ego god complex and nothing more.
Actually no, YOUR god chose to bring "sin" into this world. OK have it your way (wow are you boring) because if not true, Then that means that YOUR god is NOT in control of man and his sin, That YOUR god does NOT know everything - aka does not know anything at all about man"s sin, Is most certainly NOT all knowing and all powerful and wants to see man"s sin flourish, YOUR god does not give a damn AT ALL about the human race (proof of that is he flooded the entire earth in which never happened btw), Is most certainly not omnipotent, Is not perfect either. Nah nee nah nee boo boo.

Just a little hint for yah, That"s strike one, Any more sheer utter stupidity like that one with a strike two and three, And I will happily end this debate. K snookums?
Let"s look at "sin" since you think you know sooooooo much about it. But all you know is your belly button lint caught between your brain and your muffler.
Matt Dillahunty "What is sin and why should I care about it? (That"s a very good question. ) I don"t give a damn about sin. And that"s because I am not stupid enough nor ignorant enough to believe in a selfish self centered god so I have to look over my should every second of every day and worry about something that is completely meaningless such as sin) I understand why I should live an ethical life and treating people in certain ways, We have secular foundations for moral systems. But sin from the christian perspective is a crime against god or god"s nature itself - right? If god makes the rules and you violate it, That"s a sin. Well what if god makes a rule that you should kill your child, Does that make it good? Caller " Yeah that"s where I do things that are not aligned in what the bible says. " Matt "Yeah. But are they good things? Do you have good reasons to have that the things you are doing are not immoral? Like do you have an example? Like don"t confess to a crime or anything. For example the bible is opposed to homosexuality. Do you think there"s something immoral about those who are homosexuals? " Caller "Uh there"s none that I can think of. " Matt "Yeah me neither. And so if the bible"s opposed to it add the bible is the word of god, And the Koran is opposed to it as well and the Koran is supposed to be the word of god as well, And there are two holy books and let them argue over who god is and what god thinks and until they can come up with a sound secular justification for homosexualiy being immoral then I don"t need to pay their views any money because its just an opinion at that point. "

Sin is hypocritical and contradictory in your bible. Thus sin does not exist.
Does every man sin? Yes. There is no man who does not sin (I Kings 8:46; see also 2 Chronicles 6:36; Proverbs 20:9; Ecclesiastes 7:20; and I John 1:810)
No. True Christians cannot possibly sin, Because they are the children of God. Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is a child of God. . (I John 5:1). We should be called children of God; and so we are (I John 3: 1). He who loves is born of God (I John 4:7). No one born of God commits sin; for Gods nature abides in him, And he cannot sin because he is born of God (I John 3:9). But, Then again, Yes! If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves, And the truth is not in us (I John 1:8)

Sin? Lets use Homosexuality as an example as christians call it a sin? Really? According to what? The bible doesn"t say anywhere in the bible that its a "sin". Try harder. Nor does the bible say anything at all against gay marriages. And the words "gay" and "homosexual" were not inserted into your bible until 1946. So try harder. The biggest sin is to go against god. Now if god were in the slightest bit genuine, In which we all know better that he's not, He---couldn't---care---less. Its like you using a bad word when you were young and your mother washing your mouth out with soap. Big whoop. But god has this frail fragile thing called an "ego" which is sandblasted all across the bible which means he's imperfect. And since he's imperfect it means he should not be bowed down to nor idolized, Nor worshiped.
But the biggest sin there could possibly be - ever - of all time. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Since I will not believe in god, I am going to be denied a place in heaven by that simple little gesture. Well goodie for me, All the more reason for me to - never - believe in the monstrosity that is YOUR god, Not mine.

What value do you place on sin, Or if its not your view, It"s the bible"s. Let"s look at some examples. . . On a 1 to 10 scale. . .
*Homosexuality which has never done you any harm to you must = a 10
*no other gods before me must also = a 10
*shall not make for yourself a graven image must also = a 10
*take the name of the lord your god in vain must also = a 10
*remember the sabbath day, To keep it holy must also = a 10
*god ensues slavery and the beating of slaves so that must = a 10
*god loves raped women so that must = a 10
*god can justify his many genocides which would mean the killing of innocent babies, Children and pregnant mothers which is extremely, Excessively, Unreasonably, And is foolishly contradictory and hypocritical = a 10
*god knowingly hates children = a 10

Raping, Beating and torturing a child must = a 1 because children do not have a voice in the bible, To SCREAM. They get to say nothing. Their mouths are glued shut.
The abuser who is raping, Beating and torturing a child must also = a 1 because there's no relevance into doing harm to a child in the bible.
In no way does god believe harmony, Love, Care for each other because otherwise peace would have already been achieved = a 1

If you do not see the horrific details behind YOUR religion, God and bible, And its fatalistic flaws and how valueless they are, Then you are completely gone into another non existent universe. But then again, You like the typical christian, Have probably not even picked up your bible and read past page 1.

"It was man that chose to be wicked, " Oh really? Wow. Since when do you think that man has something called "free will" if you believe in YOUR god in which thankfully I and billions of other are not in any possible way stupid enough to because we happen to be educated and intelligent, Therefore we do have free will. Oh and btw, You show me anywhere in YOUR bible where YOUR god says something, Actually anything like "I the lord thy god grants man free will". The fact of the matter is that it doesn"t exist. So you who believes, Does not have free will. Try harder.

"And their thoughts were evil "ALL THE TIME, "" Oh I get it, Babies/ infants, Preschoolers thoughts were evil "ALL THE TIME" correct? That"s a HUGE MONUMENTAL strike 2. Indeed, You like so so so many on here, Namely debate. Org cannot possibly have any genuine friends or loved ones. What do I mean by genuine? Those that will go way way wayyyyyyyy out of their way to help you out in time of dire need and never ask you a single question. For that I cannot even pity you. But you did it to yourself. You deserve it. You will die alone.

"Why did God destroy everything in the flood, " He didn"t, Never happened. The earth was ---never--- flooded at the same time.

"Does God want to kill gays? " According to YOUR big black blank bubbling bubbles babbling book he does. "I think"" Um no. You don"t get to "think". YOUR bible is very specific on one helluva lot of things. That"s one of them. And its very specific. Leviticus 20:13 "If a man also lie with mankind, As he lieth with a woman, Both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. "
NLT "If a man practices homosexuality, Having sex with another man as with a woman, Both men have committed a detestable act. They must both be put to death, For they are guilty of a capital offense. "

I'm out of space. You've got one strike left. So on order for you to keep this debate alive, You'd better think about what you say and how you say it IF you want to keep this debate alive. I am a lot smarter, More educated and intelligent on this subject than you.
mpatter

Con

First, Let me apologize if I came of strong. I have Asperger's disorder (absolutely not a justification for bad behavior), And sometimes forget that people who do not know me, Do not know my quirks. My initial comment regarding to discrediting yourself was meant in jest, A friendly ribbing to break the ice, But it did not come out as such, So I apologize.

My attempt was and is to answer what you listed as your questions, Which I believe I did. Your new statement of discrediting God based on Genesis 1:26 to me does not prove the bible is discredited. As a little background, I was raised in a non-Trinitarian pseudo Christian cult (say that three times fast). After picking apart the faith's beliefs, I left that church, Becoming a very hard core atheist, Scoring a 7 on Dawkins' Scale. Not only was I an atheist, I was a militant one for much of my adulthood. I have only been a Christian for around four of my forty-two years, So I am pretty new at this whole Christianity thing. I will say that that atheists generally do score better than Christians on any test of the bible, So I do know somewhat of where you are coming from, As at one point I was there too. As I was at that point, I do believe that most atheists, Me included, Know the arguments you list above, And also know the answers to them. Like you, I loved to toy with them, Knowing that they would not have an answer as they had not read and studied their book. I am not saying I am "better, " and have "changed, " and "you can too, " but to say that I understand your questions and frustrations, And also the absolute fun of riling up Christians. I still have trouble not riling up Christians because it seriously fun and entertaining, Though I try to curtail this.

The reason Genesis 1:26 does not bother me is that when becoming Christian, The first question I had to address is the question of the Trinity, As this concept was not only foreign to me, And also taught strongly against in my youth. In studying the subject, Some suggest that Genesis 1:26 is the first allusion to the eternal nature of the Trinity, Followed by the "Spirit of God" moving upon the deep. To me this answer is satisfactory, Maybe not to your liking, But it settles well with me.

For dominion, I think that is a point of discussion. I could be intellectually lazy and ask you if viruses creep, But that would just be me being me. I would like to point out though that this dominion over things that creepeth upon the earth was prior to the fall, And that after the fall the serpent was cursed (traditionally thought of as a poisonous snake), And could now hurt man, Though man could hurt it in return as well. The curse for man was that the ground was cursed, Thorns and thistles would grow in the garden, And he would have to work to feed himself. The dominion was lost at the time of the fall, Though we do have quite a bit of dominion over the creatures around us, Unfortunate for them.

For the next section, I am not quite sure how to address the insults other than to say that my initial response may have sounded condescending and snide, So I guess I deserve it. Maybe I will have to remove the belly button lint from between my brain and muffler.

I know you will see this as a cop out answer, But I will state first that, As mentioned earlier, I am new to Christianity, So I do not have all of the answers, Though I do not think anyone believes they have all of the answers either. We are all on a journey and seeking truth. My cop out answer is something I have heard stated on a Christian radio program a few times. It is that the four most important words you (me) can learn is, "You are not God. " So regarding your question about if God said to kill a child, Would it be good, All I can say is that from my limited understanding it sounds wrong and I do not understand it, But that I am not God, And I do not see or know everything.

For the record, I have read and/or listened to the bible many times, And from a number of translations. I have read it as an atheist for arguing points, As a cult member, And as a Christian, So I do believe I have a unique ability to see people's points regarding the bible, As I have studied it from three different points of view.

For the record, As my education and intelligence have been questioned, I have an undergraduate and advanced degree from a research university, And was a participant on a research study comparing the validity between two IQ tests, One of the standard tests, And a new one. I scored a 164 on the traditional test, And I believe it was a 156 on the test being examined, I tend to choose the 164 due to pride, And that it is/was the typically accepted test. I am not trying to demonstrate pride, Only to say that I am not some uneducated yokel who made chose these irrational teachings as a youth, With no thought on my own. I do not know your educational background, Nor IQ, But to me this is not that relevant to the conversation. I have also worked in higher education for slightly over fifteen years now.

I believe you indicate your frustration that God would not select you for heaven (not how you worded it) based on your lack of belief. Again, I am not God, So I do not know all the answers, But to me it would seem more unethical, And less loving, For a God to force you to spend an eternity in His presence when you make a choice to not only not believe in His existence, But to, In my mind, Be openly hostile to Him.

I think I have responded to a lot of your questions within my two posts. Admittedly I, Did skip a few such as homosexuality, Which does seem important to you. I do not want to ignore an important point of debate, But I am admittedly not at this point equipped to debate this topic. I do know what is written in the bible, I also know the arguments "excuses" many Christians make for these teachings. I do not want to provide you a rote list of excuses, And I do not think you want that either. I also do not want you to think that I represent any Christian body, And instead am posting the thoughts of a recent convert to Christianity (for all of my posts). For disclosure, I plan on avoiding this question, And hope we can agree to this in mutual respect, Though if this truly is a major sticking point for you, I could possibly try to work out an answer that wasn't you (me) are not God.

Thanks for the discussion, I have enjoyed it, Except when I realized that I had been offensive, That was not enjoyable, But other than that I have. Hopefully no second strike, And we can speak again, But if so, I guess this is good bye.
Debate Round No. 2
backwardseden

Pro

Nope you don"t need to apologize at all for who you are. Just like I don"t need to apologize at all for who I am. I"ve been doing this for 43+ years and I have discussed this very subject of religion with probably 22, 000 or so. So I"ve seen everything that there is to see on the subject. God is a disdain to man, A step down to the absolute lower class of feeble worthlessness that this so-called god of superior ego god complex chatiziezes him to be. After all, That"s what the bible is entirely about if you really think about it and get down to the nitty gritty. Its about nothing else.

Genesis 1:26 does stand tall because after all the trinity is a modern day classic of misleading. You can"t after all combine the OT with the NT just because you want to when they in fact are 2 separate books. And you"d be discrediting all jews that have ever lived. Then you have to consider when they were written. The OT of who knows when and by whom? Many think the first 5 book are by moses but that makes no sense because no one can write of his death after the fact. And the NT was written a good 2, 000 years ago again by who? Nobody knows. Nobody can trace what has been said to any of the apostles unless you have active tape recorders from the time period because memory is ---always--- unreliable. NOBODY can possibly remember what christ said as an example except for maybe a few lines. Certainly not hundreds, Get them right, And put them into a book. Yep it gets even better because if god is reasonably intelligent, Because of all of that (and there"s oh so much more on the why) he"d never even consider using text, Namely the bible, As a form of communication the worst form of communication possible. Of course the best part is, Absolutely nobody can prove that this so-called god even exists. Then you have to sort out why this god was so horrifically violent, Hateful and evil. Christians simply don"t get that their god simply could have started out with peace, Love, Kindness, Care, Harmony AND KEPT IT. Nah to this so-called god, Evil, Anger, Wrath, Vengeance, Rage, Fury, Jealousy (all in which he"s freely admitted to in his bible) jealousy? Jealousy is nothing but anger as disguised fear, All of those emotions are far better. Even better is this god guy neatly passed down those emotions to man so in turn man could learn to hate. Great going god. Great going you for worshiping this thing with at least 1 billion dead on the battlefields alone all in his supposed "good" name. So do you really think you are interpreting correctly unless you believe hate is an absolute must and screw everything else?

One more problem you have with the trinity is because there are these "mistakes" in genesis 1:26, You don"t get to say "ah ha rewrite POOF, Trinity" That"s exactly what is happening right now as gays are becoming accepted worldwide. Instead of Leviticus 20:13 which is by god"s orders to demand the deaths of all gays, No exceptions, None. Its "Let"s change the bible in 20 years time and make it more acceptable and accommodating to them. " 1 hundred million % that"s what is going to happen. In other words, Man changes the bible to suit his wants, Needs and desires. Its yet another reason why your god would never choose text as a form of communication, The worst form of communication possible.
"Followed by the "Spirit of God" moving upon the deep. " What? That takes place in genesis 1:2. And it was changed there as well depending on the translation you read. It wasn"t "followed by" It was beforehand, Unless repeated in the translation you read. It yet another reason why your god would never choose text as a form of communication. Translations upon translations upon copies upon copies with dead languages upon dead languages that die out with absolutely no possible way of tracing it back to the original so absolutely nobody is interpreting correctly. No minister, No priest, No rabbi, No pastor, No pope, Nobody. Even if there was an original, Who"s to say that its interpretation for today"s generation is interpreted corrected with especially all of the characters quotes and verses being changed and altered from what was stated into updated versions? And exactly from which bible exactly? Absolutely in no possible way is it satisfactory and even you can admit that.

Sure viruses creep from creature to creature and on the ground and sure in the air. "I would like to point out though that this dominion over things that creepeth upon the earth was prior to the fall" even so at that time, Most certainly back then far far worse than now, Man DID NOT in any way have "dominion". So the bible lied. Flatly lied. Point blank lied and it got caught. Especially at that time man most certainly did not in any way have any such a thing as dominion over grizzly bears or polar bears. And the only reason why we do today is because man has those terrible weapons, In which every single one of them needs to be removed if there is to be worldwide peace, Are shotguns. Otherwise, Forget it. That"s another reason why your god would never choose text as a form of communication, He would see through these lies. Nah.

"And that after the fall the serpent"" Oh I get it a talking snake. Seriously? Anybody that believes that one and no offense, Is an idiot. That"s another reason why your god would never choose text as a form of communication, Get rid of the truly unbelievable. Regardless, The curse for man was being himself. And god was being an a$$. Adam and Eve were children and according to the bible they were warned ONCE, Only one time. Children do not learn anything from one teaching. Teaching(s) need to be repeated. And there are many many things that are constantly repeated throughout the bible such as if you curse at your parents its death. Also I"m not nor should anyone have to pay any penalty for someone"s faults that I am in no way a party to. That is a HUGE fault of the bible. What Adam and Eve did was nothing wrong. There are far worse crimes such as the raping and beating of 6 five year old kids, But naturally not to god who is clearly insane and who truly hates children in which this demonstrates to be true.

Take my insults as satire, Laugh at them and have a good time with them. Obviously they cannot be taken seriously.

"But I will state first that, As mentioned earlier, I am new to Christianity, So I do not have all of the answers, " If you do not have the answers as it is drilled into my head by a great weekly show named The Atheist Experience which is on every Sunday at 5:30 EST on youtube and they take calls from around the world, Sure call them if you"d like, "if you don"t have the answers, Then---why---believe? Especially if you cannot prove this "god" even exists? " You automatically assume that this holy terror exists without a shred of proof.
"All I can say is that from my limited understanding it sounds wrong and I do not understand it, But that I am not God, And I do not see or know everything. " Again, You don"t even know that this god even exists. So why assume he does? AND here"s the key pat that"s a "gotcha" "All I can say is that from my limited understanding it sounds wrong and I do not understand it" you know what? That automatically makes you better than your god AND that you have risen above your god. Because you know what every good scientist and atheist can state which is when they don"t know something we all say "I don"t know". Its not a crime to not know everything single thing. But ah yes to christians those words of "I don"t know" are terrorist words because dare their god be imperfect? Of course not even though he flat out is in multiple ways and that"s according to the bible.

Indeed you are also better than your god because of course no way in hell would you ---ever--- for any reason kill your own kid because a voice in your head told you to.

"For the record, I have read and/or listened to the bible many times, " Why? Why don"t you believe and listen to you and what your moral compass is? Are you going to go out and kill people or cause harm unto them? No. God does. BIG DIFFERENCE my friend.

So if you have a degree from a research university, Then you should no better by now that you have all the information you need. Trust yourself and not something from the outside that you don"t even know. If you know about research then you know that there"s no possible way to test for your god, That there"s no possible way you can demonstrate your god and your god does not in any way give a description of what "it" is. You have no idea. But you do know that in order to believe in your god, The only possible way that you can do that is through faith. Faith is not truth of any kind because everything can be taken on faith. Right?
"Why would you believe anything on faith? Faith isn"t a pathway to truth. Every religion has some sort of faith. If faith is your pathway you can"t distinguish between christianity, Hinduism, Judaism, Any of these others. How is it that you use ---reason--- in every of the other endeavor in your life and then when it comes to the ultimate truth, The most important truth your"re saying that faith is required and how is that supposed to reflect on a god? What kind of a god requires faith instead of evidence? " Matt Dillahunty

"Faith is the reason people give when they don"t have evidence. " Matt Dillahunty

"Faith can be very very dangerous, And deliberately to implant it into the vulnerable mind of an innocent child is a grievous wrong. " Richard Dawkins

"Faith is the great cop-out, The great excuse to evade the need to think and evaluate evidence. Faith is the belief in spite of, Even perhaps because of, The lack of evidence. " Richard Dawkins
Now don"t get me wrong because I am not by any means a Richard Dawkins fan. But what he said there is 100% correct.

Well I'm out of space. I wish debate. Org would allow more than 10, 000 characters.
mpatter

Con

I do need to apologize when I am wrong, Regardless if it was an unintentional harm or not.

In the past, As an atheist, I had watched a few Atheist Experience programs on Youtube. Thank you for the suggestion, But personally they were not enjoyable to me, So I did not continue. Some people would not like the format, I just do not. If I found it interesting, I probably would still listen to it. I do like to read Dawkins, Though I hate watching and listening to him. Why, Because the amount of tension both groups exude makes me too anxious. I know Christians, Conservatives, Liberals etc. All do this, And I turn them off as well. I would rather read what they are saying anyway, And all of that tension is not there.

You are right that the Trinity was not an understood concept in the Old Testament, And it is not written anywhere in the bible either, Including the New Testament. It was an invented term, As are all words, And was created to put a term to a concept that was seen in the bible. As for the spirit of God hovering over the water, The NIV, NLT, ESV, NASB, KJV, ASV, BSB, CSB, CEB, ASV, DBT, DRB, GWT, ISV, NET, NHEB, WEB, WBT and HCSB all include the term Spirit of God. The only I can find on BibleHub that do not are the OJB, And ISR versions which instead says Spirit of Elohim.

You do have an arguing point that oral words and teachings in the bible may be forgotten, And the authorship is often unknown. I personally believe that much of the reason that the bible is written in poetic form is so that it can be remembered, And the reason for the parables is the same reason. I can summarize most parables I have read or heard easily, Though not all of them verbatim. It is a good memory tool. I am sure that you have much of the bible memorized, And a lot is due to it's poetry, Not necessarily the content. Examples like the Lord's Prayer, And quite a few Psalms like though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death. . . , And to every season (turn, Turn, Turn). It was effective, And now I got the song stuck in your head.

I know we differ on this point, But if man is solely responsible for the recording of the bible, You are absolutely correct that we would not know the actual words of Jesus, And many other things recorded in scripture. If one believes scripture to be "God Breathed", Than this would not be an issue, At least for them.

I know you state that you have discussed religion with 22, 000 people, I don't know my figure, But it looks like from Yahoo Answers I had answered 3, 155 questions on that site alone, Embarrassingly for me, As they are very blasphemous, And sacrilegious, But by sure numbers of discussions, You have me beat. Some of my questions and answers were just the simple gotcha ones, Others were my own deep and thought out questions. If I asked the question more than once, Or if I already know the answer, For me at least, It was the fun gotcha question.

You state, "Take my insults as satire, Laugh at them and have a good time with them. Obviously they cannot be taken seriously. " I should not assume, But based on my experience, It was for entertaining myself. If it wasn't fun, I wouldn't have used the site. My assumption is that you do get something out of these, Otherwise you would not be here. Sometimes the entertainment value was that fist clenching indignation (that I may be causing you right now), Sometimes the feeling of superiority, Sometimes just saying gotcha, And often just for intellectual stimulation. Either way, I got something out of it.

This is only a curiosity point for me, If you divided the arguments you have had by the approximate number pages in the bible, You would have discussed each page 18 times, If of coarse you spent equal time on each page. I know you like the "Books of Moses, " so really those pages are probably of much more use to you than say the book of Haggai, So in reality those books you have argued these pages significantly more than 18 times each. My assumption (please forgive me as we all assume), Is that if you use the same books and arguments over and over, It may be because you would like to get a rise of someone.

I don't know enough Hebrew to rightfully know the translation of dominion, Or creeping thing. I cannot say that it means sheer dominance in the way you define it, Or if all animals including bacteria, Or if it is limited to that which walks on the earth. If I knew the root word, I would tell you, But I don't. I do know that paleolithic man hunted megafauna for tens of thousands of years, And many archaeologists believe they were wiped from both Austrailia and the Americas shortly after the introduction of humans on these land masses. This dominion would have happened to all of the horses, Mastodons, Mammoths, Dire wolves, Cheetahs, Giant ground sloths, Giant beavers, Camels, Saber-toothed cats, And short-faced bears in the Americas. I think if we just look at large creatures alone, We have been wiping those of the face of the earth for quite some time now. This is not an endorsement for wiping out mammoths, So please do not take this as permission to do so.

I know we differ on this, But I still am stuck on the idea that the written word is the best form of communication. I understand your reasoning, But I disagree. Without the bible being written, You could not ask the questions you do, You have got go have source to refer to. I could change my mind at any time and just claim I never heard it.

Much as you ran out of characters, I have run out of time.
Debate Round No. 3
backwardseden

Pro

Doesn"t it truly SUCK rotten Easter eggs that debate. Org only limits 10, 000 characters per round?

We"re both wrong at times. That"s what makes us human - and better than god. God intends harm in which the bible clearly shows. We don"t.

Now as far as me I love The Atheist Experience. But I just cannot get into Dawkins. Yeah I agree, I do NOT like listening or watching him. I don"t like his voice. I only use 5 of his quotes.

Mmmm. Steer clear of Biblehub. Its really not very good. Instead go to Biblegateway. Its a lot easier to follow and understand - well for me at least. It has a lot of language translations etc. That"s a major reason why this god character would ---never--- use text as a form of communication" he MUST know of the translation variations that exist throughout his bible that would take place beforehand and would not use it.
Yah see, Since the Trinity was NOT part of the OT or the NT then it cannot be taken seriously.

Now think about these"
"If god is all knowing and he knows the future of all events and he wrote a book that can only be interpreted as if it endorses slavery and if its heinous violence against your children against your neighbors" how could a god be that omnipotent and devise a book where we can"t distinguish between the law of Israel and god"s law? I mean their interwoven where we have metaphor and fact and nobody can distinguish the two. We don"t know what we"re supposed to take figuratively. We don"t know what we"re supposed to take literally. Was it actually a tree? I mean come on. How can anyone distinguish this. I mean come on. It doesn"t make any sense. It doesn"t matter how its translated. It doesn"t matter what version. If it was written by an omnipotent being there would be ONE VERSION. And there would be only ONE WAY to interpret it because it would be written well. " Aron Ra
Actually it wouldn"t be written at all. What"s wrong with your god comin" down and talking to people? "Hey you know some of that stuff that"s in the book? I"m here to correct it. " Matt Dillahunty

"We have to rely on copies of copies of anonymous authors with no originals and the textural testimony to a miracle for example, There"s no amount of reports, Anecdotal reports that is sufficient to justify in believing that actually happened as reported. And anything that would qualify as a god would clearly understand this and if it wanted to clearly convey this to people in a way that is believable would not be relying on ---TEXT--- to do so. And this to me is the nail in the coffin for christianity. The god that christians believe in is amazingly ---STUPID---! If it actually wants to achieve its goal by spreading its word to humanity by relying on text, By relying on languages that die off, By relying on anecdotal testimony, That"s not a pathway to truth. And anything that would qualify for a god would know this. Which shows either god does not exist or doesn"t care enough about the people to understand the nature of evidence to actually present it. Now which of those two possibilities is accurate? " Matt Dillahunty

"If jesus and Muhammad and abraham and moses had never been born, Which in any case I tend to dabble, If all their stories were untrue were suddenly found and everyone had to admit it some people I know would show panic. Now what would we do? We"d have no morals suddenly. What could be more nonsensical than that? As the matter of fact the position that we occupy would---be---precisely---the---same as it is now if none of these texts had ever been written, As if none of these lacerations had ever been made. We would still have to reason together about how how to treat one another, About how to build a just city, And about how to have irony and a sense of humor. " Christopher Hitchens

Yeah admittedly a lot of my insults are fun to think of. I record most of them and the I look back at them and say "I wrote that? I"m insane. " But one thing I truly hate are those that are pure psychopaths. There are many of them. And then I use my insults seriously. But wow some of those psychopaths I simply ignore except to report them. And some of them should simply be arrested and reported to the police such as TRUMPMAGADONALD. This guy, Wow. All he craves is attention. Especially from teens who go into his debates, Leave their remarks. But they don"t get that it is they that are the losers because he"s already won.
Now what do I gain out of these debates? WAKE UP! Religion, Namely god, Who is truly hateful and despicable and that"s according to the bible in which no god of the bible would ever use text as a form of communication, Is all about hate and is nothing more than a superior ego god complex as the bible spews out. I believe in care. Kindness, Love, Peace, Harmony and religion and god are the furthest things from it. There can be no worldwide peace with religion in it.

Well if you want to get into the "books of moses" if you really think about it, They are frauds. After all, How can they be written by moses if he died before their completion? Now Deuteronomy is clearly the worst, Yes. And if you really want to get down to it, The entire NT is far far far worse than the OT. After all you have hell, Crucifictions and la da daaiing as suffering and horrific pain is somehow a truly demented and diseased "good" thing. There"s the end of the world etc etc etc.
Yes there are arguments, Of course, Over and over and over again. So naturally I have composed arguments for them. In other words, Many times I do know what someone is going to say before they say it. It isn"t hard. And yes people get a rise out of what I say because what I say is already pre programmed. Yeah I hate typing up the same ole thing time and time and time and time and time and time and time and let"s say time again. Not only that but I have really bad hands and I exist in constant pain. Its easily the most pain that I have ever felt. And I most certainly do know what pain is. Yes I do like to get rises out of those who do not know what they are talking about and yet they pretend they do especially from something in which they clearly know nothing about. I also like to get a rise out of those that are psychopaths. For those that are true psychopaths such as TRUMPMAGADONALD, The absolute best thing to do is to steer clear of him and report him at all instances. But you know what I really like the absolute best? That"s to debate with someone that is intelligent, Educated with a little bit of zing and sarcasm. Well you know I really don"t like the same ole boring *yawn* where everything is as straight as an arrow debates.

I did know some Hebrew when I was growing up. My parents forced my brother and I to Sunday school. We were brought up as jews. However my mother was raised as a christian. But married my dad and converted to being a jew. Of course we both know that that was 100% wrong according to judaism. And guess what? Even though now, All of my family are full blown atheists! Sadly I do not communicate with any of my family and haven"t for a good 22 years. You wouldn"t either if they did what they did to me.
It doesn"t matter what the "Hebrew" translation of dominion, Or creeping thing" is considering that there are so many other glaring errors to sink the bible into absolute groaning worthlessness. However, All you need to do is google any torah verses that are translated into English and I can guarantee you that they will come up the same.
Here"s some other glaring errors"
* In the Bishop"s bible, The one before the KJV, The word "Tyrant" was used I don"t know how many times and then in the KJV that was replaced by "King". WHAT? Tyrant and KIng are two different and totally apples and oranges with each having totally different meanings.
* In Isaiah 45:7 KJV "I form the light, And create darkness: I make peace, And create evil: I the Lord do all these things. " In the NIV version its "I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, The Lord, Do all these things. " The words "evil" and "disaster" are completely 2 different things and words and have 0% of anything to do with each other and completely change the meaning. Either the KJV or the NIV version is a clear misprint.
* Judges 1:19 "And the Lord was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, Because they had chariots of iron. "
(tee hee THAT'S REALLY way beyond silly. So this is how I will defeat/ set up a defense against your god is if I have iron chariots. And all the nuclear bombs on earth and all the supernovas and all gamma ray bursts IN THE UNIVERSE EVER will not be a defense and not be able to defeat god, But alas, According to the schizophrenic of unsound mind in whoever wrote the damn thing bible *take a breath please* iron chariots will.

Dominance. See the bible isn"t clear. Or is it? That dominate means man has dominance over everything which is a bold faced lie. Even so, Man at that time did not have dominance over grizzly bears, Polar bears, - the fishes of the sea - great white sharks? Nope. Sharks are fish.
Yes man has been wiping out everything he sees and touches. At least he tries to. But fails miserably when it comes to insects (things that creepeth so the bible lies), Bacteria and microbes as examples.

"But I still am stuck on the idea that the written word is the best form of communication. " To unstuck you, That"s not it. Sure man can communicate using text. But to god? Not ever. Especially when this character of a supreme ego god complex in which the bible is entirely about and the bible is filled with mistakes in which this god if reasonably intelligent would have long foreseen before these mistakes were to have happened - to spread his ego, Through text, Really? No. Not if this god character is a god especially when this god can simply talk to us. That"s evidence. Text is not evidence. Think about it!

I'm out of space.
This round has not been posted yet.
Debate Round No. 4
2 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Posted by DeletedUser 2 years ago
DeletedUser
Im dying laughing
Posted by backwardseden 3 years ago
backwardseden
I'm really tired right now and I sleep for at least a day. I have very BAD sleeping habits. But will post my argument when I wake up.
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