The Instigator
backwardseden
Pro (for)
The Contender
Anderand
Con (against)

If you believe in the god of the bible then you have no Free Will, None

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/15/2019 Category: Religion
Updated: 1 week ago Status: Debating Period
Viewed: 571 times Debate No: 121799
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (47)
Votes (0)

 

backwardseden

Pro

If you believe in the christian god of the bible, You have no free will none. I on the other hand am not stupid enough nor dunderheaded enough to ---ever--- believe in the christian god of the bible, Therefore I have free will.

What will be listed below is shatterproof proof that if you believe in the god of the bible, Then you have no free will.

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RULES: Prove that you have Free Will according to god and the bible and that free will is just and good according to god and the bible and is not based on evil and hate.

dsjpk5 is disqualified from the voting procedures as he tries to pretend he's god and thus change the voting structure of who wins and loses here on DDO.

Now I have backed upped this debate with something in which is known as "evidence" from various sources in which so-called christians really tend to hate. It would be a very wise idea if you don't scrotum soda flop it from your made up ideas in your head as so-called christians tend to do. Bad idea.

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You show me or anyone where in the bible, Anywhere that YOUR christian god says something to the effect of "I the LORD thy god grants man free will. " The fact of the matter is, Is that it doesn't exist. Not anywhere. So in fact your god does NOT grant you Free Will of any kind. Period. But in truth, I hope you find it because then that would mean that YOUR bible hypocritically contradicts itself YET AGAIN for the thousandth time or so with all of its inconsistencies, Because there so many verses that prove that god does not, By any means, Grant Free Will.

Another example in fact god shuts you down with Free Will all over his bible. A perfect example of that are the 10 commandments. . . Threatening people with death is taking Free Will away.

Thankfully pretty much no one follows the justice followed by the ridiculous mayhem madness god.

The 10 commandments are a perfect example. How can you uphold stupid idiotic laws that have no meaning? If those were to be upheld, As a guess at least 80% of this population would not be in existence or better. But that is what is estimated of those who claim that they are christians who do not read their bible except for once every other week. And that’s only a couple of verses, If that. So they are not true christians.

* Taking thy lord thy god’s name is vein requires being stoned to death (blasphemy).

* Working on the sabbath also requires to be put to death.

* Adultery requires to be put to death

* Honoring your parents/ dishonoring cursing at you parents requires you as the child to be put to death. WHAT? The others listed above are what they are. But honor thy mother and father. What? Not if they rape, Beat and torture me. Not if they are lousy parents and they do not guide me in my journey through life in growing up. Not if they abuse me such as neglect and for me to be ignored which is the worst form of abuse there is which is what your god did to nearly 100% of those who have EVER walked the earth. Your god HATES children. Yet there’s no commandment to protect children from any kind of harm thus proving that the 10 commandments are trash.

Now let’s look at Free Will from god’s point of view. If you believe in god you do not have Free Will of any kind. Period. Let's look at it from god's point of view because god himself does NOT have Free Will IF he knows his future. After all, How can he if he is omnipotent because he will have already known his choices that have been chosen? That is NOT Free Will. So if YOUR god does not have Free Will and the ability to choose, Most definitely man does NOT have Free Will and the ability to choose. Got it? It will only lead you---right---back---here---this---moment------in---time.

Also there's Free Will in hate? That's makes no sense whatsoever IF this god guy is supposed to be loving, Caring and kind. Wow what a true MAJOR HYPOCRITICAL CONTRADICTION if there ever was one. But then again, God and the bible are riddled with thousands of hypocritical contradictions and inconsistencies which proves 0 intelligence. If this god guy of yours is omnipotent and cares, With kindness, And love in which there's no way he can because this god guy can---easily---take---the---evil---and---hate---out---of---Free Will such as the brutal rape, Beating and torturing of a 6 year old girl as an example. But no, He doesn't. He leaves it in. Thus that absolutely proves that this god of yours IS EVIL(and he freely admits it several times is HIS bible. Would you like the verses? ) AND IS BASED ON HATE as he truly hates children and knowingly creates children to suffer. WHAT? What kind of supreme deity PURPOSELY does this? And he freely admits it.

And ah yes, Its the children that suffer and its daddy that doesn't get punished when he sticks his you know what inside of his daughter while punching her in the face sometimes twice per week for 17 years as a prime steak example. Sick. But god creates Free Will huh? Um no. Um not a chance. Once again, If god is god loving kind and caring, In which he is clearly not, He can take the evil and hate out of free will. But no. He leaves evil in Free Will. What an artic circle antic laughing lard. So this christian god in which nobody can even prove even exists loves suffering, Pain, Hate, Evil and wow does he prove it. That’s entirely what you believe in IF you believe in god. Don’t you dare shake your head away from it.

Now let's look at it from a child's point of view in which god truly hates children btw and your bible proves. Would you like some direct verses? Nah I didn't think so, Because you christians for nearly 100% of you are true cowards and you can't even pay attention to your ignorant bible's when slamped right in front of you.

OK ready?

A 4 year old child has no Free Will whatsoever to break free from daddy when he is sticking his you know what inside of his daughter while punching her in the face and sometimes does it for 13 years or longer as I have known someone who has gone through this kind of intense suffering and agony. Your pathetic jesus, In which there’s 0 proof of having ever existing, Had it easy in being tortured for 17 hours tops. Oh but wait, Its ONLY the religious christian maggots that actually believes that the perpetrator out-trumps the child with his Free Will who in comparison to the child who is treated like trash in your bible who does not get to speak one---single---sentence which is the worst form of child abuse there is, Neglect and to be ignored. Well good luck with that you sickened christians because if that were your actual testimony in today's society, The key to your prison of a black hole would be thrown away for the rest of your miserable lives and rightly so.

Where is the daughters Free Will to escape? Ah yes---it---does---not---exist! And how dare you make the attempt to take the "value" of the perpetrators Free Will to rape innocent children over that of the "value" of children who do not have Free Will. But then again, God truly hates children as just proved. And can be proved in so many other ways. Would you like me to? Nah. I didn't think so. Religious cowards such as you run for cover anytime anything bad is said about your frail fragile demonic god that you do not have the answers for.

Do you fully understand that? God could easily be kind and caring by taking the evil out of Free Will. But he doesn’t. He leaves it in. That right there proves him to be one evil and true hate filled sickened diseased whacko. That is of course if Free Will exists if you believe in god in which case god obviously does not exist. There's no way he can. Its a vicious catch 22. And you are on the short end of the stick, Always with no turnabout and absolutely no answer to refute a word as to what has just been said.

What about getting cancer? What about being glued to a wheelchair from birth? What about autism? What about being stung by a box jellyfish? What about an entire family of 5 being murdered by daddy who decides to go on a rampage with his guns because this ignorant country, Namely republicans, Does nothing to curb guns? Yeah. God gives this jerk Free Will to murder his entire family. Yeah its this family's Free Will to be murdered - correct? Oh so that means god gives Free Will to Hitler, Hong Xiuquan, Mao, Pol Pot, Stalin etc etc. And since when did the victims have Free Will to be mass murdered? Yeah you can not possibly be grown from fertilizer bombs. What about millions of other examples? Oh I get it, That's all Free Will huh? AND YOU 100% KNOW YOU---ARE---WRONG! You have the intelligence and education to fully understand and get that something isn't quite right and that something is indeed screwed up here.

Tracie Harris: "Your question was regarding free will as an argument for allowing suffering. That's when you get into the problem of evil. Now the problem of evil as we all know is not an argument that demonstrates that no god exists or that god exists. What it demonstrates is that god is your god is an a$$. What she's telling you is she believes in a god, And I assume she worships this god? Its like is she 'happy' about her god? " Caller: "Oh oh yeah everything except for the old testament. " Tracie "In other words what she is saying is 'I love this god who believes that the free will of the rapist is more important than the free will of the child being raped. That I think that its worth it to have a child be raped because I really really put a high value on a rapist's free will. ’"

Yeah right, Like god is really going to take the chance at someone who is not on track to go ahead a go off the grid and ruin his supposed almighty “plan”? What’s the point in being god if there isn’t that control? What’s the point if that plan is disrupted by some fool who has Free Will and goes ahead with his Free Will and ruins god’s plan because he has Free Will?

Another thing do you really think that if god can create the universe in 6 days, That he is NOT going to control YOU and NOT KNOW EXACTLY WHAT YOUR FREE WILL/ CHOICES ARE? Are you insane? Of course he is.

"When she dies does she get to go to heaven? If she gets to go to heaven will she be happy? And she’ll probably say “yes”. And you say “Will you be able to choose and do anything you want while you are in heaven? ” And she’ll say “yes. ” And so you are basically saying “you’ll have free will in heaven? ” So you have free will in heaven and no one is being hurt, Raped, So you can do anything you want and no one gets hurt. If god has that power in heaven, He must have that power on earth. So he’s chose not to set that condition/ toggle switch which means he’s a dick. " Phil Ferguson

Anderand

Con

My argument begins with pointing out three of your false assumptions.

1. Straw man
Unfortunately, You do not understand the total story arc of the Bible, And therefore, Almost every verse you use is pulled out of context and improperly understood. Thus, You have built a false 'Bible' and are attacking it.

Here is a video that uses modern scholarship to unpack the whole story accurately:
https://www. Youtube. Com/watch? V=7_CGP-12AE0

2. Genetic fallacy
You are argue that the BIble is valueless because of its source of information. Cultural differences are massive in terms of understanding and your failure to understand them means you blindly and falsely throw attacks at the Bible when it doesn't claim the things that you are claiming it does. Thus, Your argument fails to consider the Bible's actual position.

3. False Dilemma
You creating a black/white understanding of this question that limits the actual logical options. Ironically, Your descriptions of the Bible about being evil actually back up what the Bible says. The Bible says that man moved away from God and decided for himself to define what was Good and what was Evil instead of listening to God. Therefore, When you call the Bible evil, You are actually not only affirming what it says, But you are also failing to considering the logical outcomes that are possible depending on the bible's proper context.

Verses that depict free will:
'Free will' is a modern word, Which was invented recently. Therefore, All I need to do is show the conceptual equivalent of the word in the Bible. It is a logical fallacy to demand for a word that was created after the Bible to be in the Bible! Instead, I shall just show its conceptual presence.

Moses speaking in Exodus 32: 13-14. . . . . "Turn from your fierce anger; relent and do not bring disaster on your people. Remember your servants Abraham, Isaac and Israel, To whom you swore by your own self: "I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and I will give your descendants all this land I promised them, And it will be their inheritance forever. "" Then the Lord relented and did not bring on his people the disaster he had threatened. "

This verse depicts a human (Moses) that changes God's mind! This demonstrates that man is depicted as having a great role, And a role that can operate with freedom of mind, Action, And deliberation.

The oxford dictionary states that free will is "the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion. "

Though I can give you many more examples, This one serves to show that humanity has power in their actions that is not constrained by necessity, Fate, Or God.
Debate Round No. 1
backwardseden

Pro

Capitalism. Well it still doesn"t state that god gives free will.

I cannot look up what verses you are referring to Exodus 32, Numbers 14, Genesis 18, Or Matthew 28 as you mentioned chapters.

Well the 10 commandments were already mentioned in full glorious detail. A couple more things about them"
All of the 10 commandments are negative and prohibiting when they should be uplifting if anything. What true downers they all are. There's also no way a supreme deity of intelligence or integrity would ever put into play The 10 Commandments in which 8 of them this country, The U. S. Violates and a true supreme deity can not expect anyone to follow all of them to the letter in the first place.
*no other gods before me, *shall not make for yourself a graven image, *take the name of the lord your god in vain, *remember the sabbath day, To keep it holy are all geared towards a super egotistical god complex. How childish also. A true supreme deity couldn"t care less about these trivial things.
As George Carlin put it"
THOU SHALT NOT HAVE STRANGE GODS BEFORE ME. ===== " THOU SHALT NOT TAKE THE NAME OF THE LORD THY GOD IN VAIN. ===== " THOU SHALT KEEP HOLY THE SABBATH.

"Okay, Right off the bat, The first three commandments"pure B. S. "Sabbath day, " "Lord's name, " "strange gods. " Spooky language. Spooky language designed to scare and control primitive people. In no way does superstitious mumbo jumbo like this apply to the lives of intelligent, Civilized humans in the twenty-first century. You throw out the first three commandments, Pppppffttttt. . . And you're down to seven. "

Psalm 2, Gen. 15 again verses please. Not chapters. I have no idea what you are looking at. Also which translation are you reading?
"In fact, This is why He gives them the 10 Commandments: it is the means and instructions by which to keep God's Presence safely around. " Really? So once again 4 are geared towards his bloated superior ego god complex, 4 are geared towards if you don"t follow them it means death? So that has to do with "safely"? And please do tell me how any of these precious 10 commandments have ---anything--- to do with children and babies as there"s not one commandment are geared towards?

Here"s how most religions work" Religion is invented to explain the unexplained. From that power ensues. And then with that power with most religions, Though not all, But certainly with your unproven god fear is installed. And with that fear, Control of its subjects are secured and initiated.

"This is a very serious responsibility that He gives them, " Nice guess. Um no. Wrong. Its a control factor. Its not a responsibility ideal. If it was, The threats of death would be off the table completely. "And as you can see countless times in the Old Testament, They fail and God's Presence is no longer among them and they get conquered by other nations! " Well actually no. Have you even read your bible? Its your god that conquers other nations with genocide after genocide for the simple and complete idiocy that the thing gets jealous when other cultures worships other gods. I really should end this debate right here and now because it is so point blank clear that you have no idea, None as to what you are squawking about. None.
Now read a book called "Drunk With Blood" to find all of your god"s killings/ murders especially of children and babies in which you MUST support. That is IF you believe in your god. Your god killed 2, 821, 364 in your bible all in one little splatch of land.
Here"s a link to the audio version. Just listen to the introduction!
https://www. Youtube. Com/watch? V=8VN8xXYDPnk&t=121s
"I believe that most believers would stop believing in the bible if they knew what was in it. And this is particularly true of god"s killings. All of the stories are absurd from a historical standpoint. They cannot have happened the way they are told in the bible. But what is even more damning is their unspeakable cruelty and obvious immorality. If the killings in this book actually happened, Then the god of the bible is not the god that believers pretend him to be. "

"Israel didn't keep their end of the Partnership and they faced the consequences! " What partnership? Your god said this is this, Obey or else. And when your god commits to telling his so-called chosen people to commit these genocides, Especially when he can do it his god damned self when there"s a commandment saying "thou shalt not kill" well gee, That"s a tad bit, Well actually its monstrously contradictory and hypocritical especially coming from a supposed god in which thankfully you nor anyone has ever proved to exist. "So the question becomes: Did Israel's relationship with God allow for 'free will'? " Well since they broke free of this typhoid god, They had free will.

"A fish cannot be a fish outside of water. Water is the boundary of freedom for a fish. " What if its a lungfish? "Another example is that if you don't have a boundary, You cannot actually freely move! Think of an astronaut in space and unless they have something to push off of. . . They cannot move. " Why why why can"t you think, Reason, Rationalize, Use common sense, Use logic? It is those that are religious, Think they are christians, Believe in god that fall short. They can move within their spacesuits. The point is, You"ve got to be clear, Crystal clear. And if you can"t, As you have clearly shown in your argument here, Then how can you possibly interpret correctly from what the bible says and what it doesn"t say?

"It is only with a boundary that someone can really be free. In the same way, The 10 commandments depicts and creates genuine freedom because they are a 'boundary'. " Not---by---issuing---death! Not---by---plastering---a---obscene---preposterous---stamp---of---an---ego to let himself shine ever so bright which limits free will of all kinds.
"Initially, God gave them to Israel to show them what the Garden of Eden was like. " WHAT?
OK we"re done. That is so far off base and clearly an invented excuse by you and only you.
I truly hate invented excuses and liars even worse who stretch the truth, Well what truth, That is so ridiculously fabricated by any means in your bible that hey you might as well pour gasoline all over yourself and run into a burning collapsing building and survive to mention something so ridiculous. Was that something you said to gain attention? Probably. Bye.
Anderand

Con

I'm really trying to track with you here, But I think your argument is just poor explained. So here is my thought process on your argument.

At first, I thought your points just simply don't address your topic (free will). Most of the time, Your argument deals with the morality of the Bible. That is, Whether it is good or full of evil as you say. However, This has almost nothing to do with the concept of free will. Can't free will be present in the Bible regardless of what you think about the Christian God? Isn't the question simply whether a Christian can or can't prescribe to the philosophical assumption of free will if they believe the God of the Bible? This topic actually deals with what is in the Bible itself. So all the argument should center around whether the Bible lays out free will or not, Right? All the verses you instead about whether you think God is moral or not.

Then, I thought: Maybe this person (though not explicitly stated) makes a connection between morality and free will? What if they think that a Supreme Being who made the universe is a puppet master who necessarily controls everyone? Thus, By trashing the Christian God's morality, This person thinks they are making an argument against A. ) God being real and B. ) God being too evil to give free will. Is that what you are saying? Because otherwise your argument is absolutely meaningless and your points don't address the topic of free will.

If you would like to change the topic and discuss the morality of God's actions, Fine, But maybe change the thread question!
Otherwise, This debate can only be won by dissecting the meaning of Bible passages and philosophical assumptions about the meaning and implications of free will. What you think?

More than this, I continue to hold that you make 3 logical fallacies from the beginning. I would also argue that you fundamentally misunderstand the story of the Bible and many of the verses you use are irrelevant for the discuss of free will.

The reality is that this topic (at least the way that it is framed now) is about showing the philosophical equivalent of the concept of 'free will' in the Bible. And, How Christians can indeed operate both on a premise that Jesus is God and that He gives us 'free will'/responsibility/the freedom to move and operate.

Maybe just explain how your argument about the morality of God is significant for this debate. Then, Just address my points from the previous response about 3 logical fallacies.
Debate Round No. 2
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Debate Round No. 3
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Debate Round No. 4
47 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Kikomori 1 week ago
Kikomori
Leave him. He has to get someone else to read for him
Posted by Anonymous03 1 week ago
Anonymous03
Backwardseden,
How many times do you have to say 'teeny bopper'? You're a middle aged man with no life, Oh the irony. No-one blinks or bats an eye whenever you repeat the same argument again. . . And again. . . And again. . . 'still stuck in high school', 'uneducated'. . . Damn this is boring to read through.

You also haven't responded to a single comment I've posted for a while now, Leading me to believe you're intensely scared by me for some reason.
Please respond. I'm scared that you've finally lost it and decided to block me for whatever reason. I'm desperate to right my wrongs and have you talk to me again, As your ignoring me is such a massive loss to my life.
Posted by Kikomori 1 week ago
Kikomori
The illiteracy is strong with this one
Posted by backwardseden 1 week ago
backwardseden
That's why you are an uneducated teeny bopper, Still 15, Unedumacated, Still stuck in high school with a high school edumacation. Oh but wait garsh darned, It YOU are changing the subject. Therefore what YOU have to say becomes obliterated and is thus meaningless. I'm so very glad I made your day better. Please do not post me again unless YOU have something intelligent to say. And we both know that's impossible and is far too taxing for YOUR cabbage batbrain as YOUR fav hobby is concrete parachuting so YOU can meow at the moon while its filled with blackened cheese. WOOF!
Posted by Kikomori 1 week ago
Kikomori
You have RUN AWAY from EVERY DEBATE CHALLENGE I have sent!

He"s right. Just replace I with everyone
Posted by backwardseden 1 week ago
backwardseden
Actually John is wrong, Just as nearly all supposed christians are.
Posted by Kikomori 1 week ago
Kikomori
John is right
Posted by Anonymous03 1 week ago
Anonymous03
Iconoclast,

Really ironic. Damn hypocrite you are, Trying to blast me for 'not saying' what I can bloody well not say on my own profile, Whilst still tip-toeing around the actual subject like some p*ssy brat.

No-one cares about my profile. I don't either. You're trying to make it a big deal but really no-one gives a sh*t about your debates and nor do I, And my lack of involvement in that doesn't make me a p*ssy.

Keep posting those links, Will ya? It really shows how you can't even argue for yourself and rely on things that happened in the past.

Backwardseden,

You and iconoclast make up the whole two people who are ignoring 1_john_5. 20. You two are on your own (doesn't really make sense, But yeah figuratively speaking you are). I mean if anyone backed you up there, You'd have a leg to stand on, But yeah saying that 'you should be ignored' and 'you don't show thinking abilities, Rationality abilities (what does that mean? ), Reasoning abilities etc' without anyone sharing that sh*tty opinion really puts you down.

No-one backs you up on that fabricated nonsense you crap out. You have no loved ones on this site and deservedly so. You argue by yourself like the sad toddler you are, Desperately looking for someone to agree with you. The man-child of DDO. The outcast. The lonely incel who has no life.

Man in his 40's blasting strangers across the Internet about their debating skills when they have a 4% winrate? Pathetic.

Come back to me if you can have anyone agree with you. You're just wasting peoples' time.
Posted by backwardseden 1 week ago
backwardseden
@1_john_5. 20 - Perhaps when you send a decent argument that is backed up with intelligence, An edumacation, And evidence where you can support your claims AND where you can show that you have thinking abilities, Rationality abilities, Reasoning abilities, Common sense abilities, And logic abilities because your unproven god most certainly doesn't and you most certainly have not in any possible way demonstrated that you do either, Then its on the wow factor that you all in all should be 100% ignored. Duh.
Posted by 1_john_5.20 1 week ago
1_john_5.20
You have RUN AWAY from EVERY DEBATE CHALLENGE I have sent! A true atheist would relish at the opportunity to SCHOOL a pseudo-Christian in a public debate rather than just making small jabs HIDDEN AWAY in the comments section. EVERYONE is watching you SIT ON THE SIDELINES! If your goal is to destroy a reputation you have FAILED because you have refused TWO DEBATE CHALLENGES from me! Will YOU continue to RUN AWAY? I didn't realize I had encountered a PSEUDO-ATHEIST!

You call yourself 21stCenturyIconclast, But who has the insipid moniker now? You are brandishing a contemptable and ignominious pseudonym and all your irreligionist atheistic counterparts will recognize your preposterous and nonsensical argumentation. You should ameliorate your appellation to Namby-Pamby21stCenturyCharlatan. Yeah, I can use a thesaurus too.
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