The Instigator
backwardseden
Pro (for)
Tied
1 Points
The Contender
longstreet01234
Con (against)
Tied
1 Points

If you believe in the god of the bible, Then you have no free will, None

Do you like this debate?NoYes+0
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
It's a Tie!
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/30/2018 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 920 times Debate No: 119672
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (21)
Votes (2)

 

backwardseden

Pro

If you believe in the christian god of the bible, You have no free will, None. I on the other hand am not stupid enough nor dunderheaded enough to ---ever--- believe in the christian god of the bible, Therefore I have free will.

What will be listed below is shatterproof proof that if you believe in the god of the bible, Then you have no free will.
----------------

RULES: Prove that you have Free Will according to god and the bible and that free will is just and good according to god and the bible and is not based on evil and hate.

Now I have backed upped this debate with something in which is known as "evidence" from various sources in which so-called christians really tend to hate. It would be a very wise idea if you don't scrotum soda flop it from your made up ideas in your head. Bad idea.
-----------------

You show me or anyone where in the bible, Anywhere that YOUR christian god says something to the effect of "I the LORD thy god grants man free will. " The fact of the matter is, Is that it doesn't exist. Not anywhere. So in fact your god does NOT grant you Free Will of any kind. Period. But in truth, I hope you find it because then that would mean that YOUR bible hypocritically contradicts itself YET AGAIN for the thousandth time or so with all of its inconsistencies, Because there so many verses that prove that god does not, By any means, Grant Free Will. So until you can show in the holy book itself that its god says something to the effect of "I the lord thy god grants man free will", Then free will for man does not exist.

Another example in fact god shuts you down with Free Will all over his bible. A perfect example of that are the 10 commandments. . . Threatening people with death is taking Free Will away.

Thankfully pretty much no one follows the justice followed by the ridiculous mayhem madness god.

Threatening people with death is taking people's free will away with 4 of the 10 commandments do. They are a prime example.

* Taking thy lord thy god’s name is vein requires being stoned to death (blasphemy).
* Working on the sabbath also requires to be put to death.
* Adultery requires to be put to death
* Honoring your parents/ dishonoring cursing at you parents requires you as the child to be put to death. WHAT? The others listed above are what they are. But honor thy mother and father. What? Not if they rape, Beat and torture me. Not if they are lousy parents and they do not guide me in my journey through life in growing up. Not if they abuse me such as neglect and for me to be ignored which is the worst form of abuse there is which is what your god did to nearly 100% of those who have EVER walked the earth. Your god HATES children. Yet there’s no commandment to protect children from any kind of harm thus proving that the 10 commandments are trash.

Here's some videos for your beady little eyes to watch to show you how twisted god is with Free Will, The paradoxes, And the evils and hate of it. . .

https://www. Youtube. Com/watch? V=hOaLlyRId4I - An All Knowing God versus Free Will: The Greatest Religious Contradiction
https://www. Youtube. Com/watch? V=lAqFbiBDb_c - Free Will With god
https://www. Youtube. Com/watch? V=Z1BzP1wr234&t=5s+How - How god Favors Free Will

Now let’s look at Free Will from god’s point of view. Well the videos already did that. So you should be brushed up on the fact that god does not have Free Will, So how can man? If you believe in god you do not have Free Will of any kind. Period. Let's look at it from god's point of view because god himself does NOT have Free Will IF he knows his future. After all, How can he if he is omnipotent because he will have already known his choices that have been chosen? That is NOT Free Will. So if YOUR god does not have Free Will and the ability to choose, Most definitely man does NOT have Free Will and the ability to choose.

Also there's Free Will in hate? That's makes no sense whatsoever IF this god guy is supposed to be loving, Caring and kind. Wow what a true MAJOR HYPOCRITICAL CONTRADICTION if there ever was one. But then again, God and the bible are riddled with thousands of hypocritical contradictions and inconsistencies which proves 0 intelligence. If this god guy of yours is omnipotent and cares, With kindness, And love in which there's no way he can because this god guy can---easily---take---the---evil---and---hate---out---of---Free Will such as the brutal rape, Beating and torturing of a 6 year old girl as an example. But no, He doesn't. He leaves it in. Thus that absolutely proves that this god of yours IS EVIL(and he freely admits it several times is HIS bible. Would you like the verses? ) AND IS BASED ON HATE as he truly hates children and knowingly creates children to suffer. WHAT? What kind of supreme deity PURPOSELY does this? And he freely admits it.

And ah yes, Its the children that suffer and its daddy that doesn't get punished when he sticks his you know what inside of his daughter while punching her in the face sometimes twice per week for 17 years as a prime steak example. Sick. But god creates Free Will huh? Um no. Um not a chance. Once again, If god is god loving kind and caring, In which he is clearly not, He can take the evil and hate out of free will. But no. He leaves evil in Free Will. What an artic circle antic laughing lard. So this christian god in which nobody can even prove even exists loves suffering, Pain, Hate, Evil and wow does he prove it. That’s entirely what you believe in IF you believe in god. Don’t you dare shake your head away from it.

Now let's look at it from a child's point of view in which god truly hates children btw and your bible proves. Would you like some direct verses? Nah I didn't think so, Because you christians for nearly 100% of you are true cowards and you can't even pay attention to your ignorant bible's when slamped right in front of you.

OK ready?

A 4 year old child has no Free Will whatsoever to break free from daddy when he is sticking his you know what inside of his daughter while punching her in the face and sometimes does it for 13 years or longer as I have known someone who has gone through this kind of intense suffering and agony. Your pathetic jesus, In which there’s 0 proof of having ever existing, Had it easy in being tortured for 17 hours tops. Oh but wait, Its ONLY the religious christian maggots that actually believes that the perpetrator out-trumps the child with his Free Will who in comparison to the child who is treated like trash in your bible who does not get to speak one---single---sentence which is the worst form of child abuse there is, Neglect and to be ignored. Well good luck with that you sickened christians because if that were your actual testimony in today's society, The key to your prison of a black hole would be thrown away for the rest of your miserable lives and rightly so.

Where is the daughters Free Will to escape? Ah yes---it---does---not---exist! And how dare you make the attempt to take the "value" of the perpetrators Free Will to rape innocent children over that of the "value" of children who do not have Free Will. But then again, God truly hates children as just proved. And can be proved in so many other ways. Would you like me to? Nah. I didn't think so. Religious cowards such as you run for cover anytime anything bad is said about your frail fragile demonic god that you do not have the answers for.

Do you fully understand that? god could easily be kind and caring by taking the evil out of Free Will. But he doesn’t. He leaves it in. That right there proves him to be one evil and true hate filled sickened diseased whacko. That is of course if Free Will exists if you believe in god in which case god obviously does not exist. There's no way he can. Its a vicious catch 22. And you are on the short end of the stick, Always with no turnabout and absolutely no answer to refute a word as to what has just been said.

What about getting cancer? What about being glued to a wheelchair from birth? What about autism? What about being stung by a box jellyfish? What about an entire family of 5 being murdered by daddy who decides to go on a rampage with his guns because this ignorant country, Namely republicans, Does nothing to curb guns? Yeah. God gives this jerk Free Will to murder his entire family. Yeah its this family's Free Will to be murdered - correct? Oh so that means god gives Free Will to Hitler, Hong Xiuquan, Mao, Pol Pot, Stalin etc etc. And since when did the victims have Free Will to be mass murdered? Yeah you can not possibly be grown from fertilizer bombs. What about millions of other examples? Oh I get it, That's all Free Will huh? AND YOU 100% KNOW YOU---ARE---WRONG! You have the intelligence and education to fully understand and get that something isn't quite right and that something is indeed screwed up here.

Tracie Harris: "Your question was regarding free will as an argument for allowing suffering. That's when you get into the problem of evil. Now the problem of evil as we all know is not an argument that demonstrates that no god exists or that god exists. What it demonstrates is that god is your god is an a$$. What she's telling you is she believes in a god, And I assume she worships this god? Its like is she 'happy' about her god? " Caller: "Oh oh yeah everything except for the old testament. " Tracie "In other words what she is saying is 'I love this god who believes that the free will of the rapist is more important than the free will of the child being raped. That I think that its worth it to have a child be raped because I really really put a high value on a rapist's free will. ’"

Yeah right, Like god is really going to take the chance at someone who is not on track to go ahead a go off the grid and ruin his supposed almighty “plan”? What’s the point in being god if there isn’t that control? What’s the point if that plan is disrupted by some fool who has Free Will and goes ahead with his Free Will and ruins god’s plan because he has Free Will?

Another thing do you really think that if god can create the universe in 6 days, That he is NOT going to control YOU and NOT KNOW EXACTLY WHAT YOUR FREE WILL/ CHOICES ARE? Are you insane? Of course he is.

"When she dies does she get to go to heaven? If she gets to go to heaven will she be happy? And she’ll probably say “yes”. And you say “Will you be able to choose and do anything you want while you are in heaven? ” And she’ll say “yes. ” And so you are basically saying “you’ll have free will in heaven? ” So you have free will in heaven and no one is being hurt, Raped, So you can do anything you want and no one gets hurt. If god has that power in heaven, He must have that power on earth. So he’s chose not to set that condition/ toggle switch which means he’s a dick. " Phil Ferguson

Rules:
dsjpk5 will NOT be allowed to vote in the voting process.
longstreet01234

Con

I appreciate the opportunity to debate this subject, And I hope we can come to an agreement or at least an understanding of the other's position. I would like to start off by looking at the title of this debate, As I think my opponent made a mistake with it. The title claims "If you believe in the god of the bible, Then you have no free will, None. " This title implies that a belief in itself can remove free will, However that is self contradictory; that belief, In itself has no effect on free will unless said belief is true. So what the title should be is something to the affect of "If the God of the Christian Bible is true, Free will does not exist. " However, Since he did frame the debate in such a way and, It seems, Tries to defend the idea that the belief itself makes free will impossible, I will address it. Before I begin, I do want to apologize, As I was unable to get the links to Youtube to work, Though I am sure my opponent aptly described it
So I will begin by fulfilling his request of showing where in the Bible it says we are free. One verse is Galatians 5:13 which says "You, My brothers and sisters, Were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh; rather, Serve one another humbly in love. " I hope that that this sufficient, As I am trying to save space, However if you wish to know of more I would suggest you google verses about free will.
As for the subject in itself, This topic is a matter of whether a Christian Doctrine is correct, Not necessarily Christianity as a whole. There are many Christians who believe that free will is at best limited, Such as many adherents of John Calvin's doctrine of predestination. That said, I do deeply believe in free will and believe the Bible is not only compatible with it, But teaches it.
As for my opponents first argument, He claims that the punishment of crimes against the old law are against free will, However this is a misunderstanding of free will, And is actually necessary for free will to exist. To my first point, The definition of a person's will is defined as follows: "the faculty by which a person decides on and initiates action. " This means that it is the ability to think one's own thoughts that is free, Not necessarily the ability to act on those thoughts in every instance. However, Even allowing this, In order for free will to exist, There must be consequences to our actions, And that can include the free will of others being used against us. Free will, In the
Christian definition is the ability to choose between good and evil and whether to follow God freely. Freely means without the divine preventing you by directly controlling your thoughts. No threats of death can do that.
As for God not having free will, It is just simply false. He is indeed omniscient, But knowing what one will do in advance of one's doing it does not make his action not free. God knows what is the greatest good and will do so based on his free will. He has the option not to, But his nature of being ultimately good surpasses his doing that. Knowledge of what one will do just simply doesn't equate with lack of free will.
Now then, You bring up the idea of evil and hate and their compatibility with the idea of free will. This is by far your weakest point, God wanted us to be able to freely follow him or stray away from him. What you don't understand is by allowing us free will is what gives those evil things. He cannot logically make us free, And take away the emotional and mental capacities to do what is not good, That is just simply not free will.
There is however a point you make here that is better than the idea that evil is incompatible with free will, And that is how could a loving God allow us to do atrocious things, Regardless if it is free or not; and there are several ways to answer that. I am a strong believer in Molinism, The theory of free will developed by Luis de Molina. This theory states that, While we are truly free in what with we do with the set laws of the world that we have, Free will doesn't require that God set those laws to give us infinite possibilities with those laws. This means that, Being all knowing, He knows out of the infinite possibilities of the world and the universe which will have the greatest overall good. In the Christian worldview, The greatest good does not come from this world, The greatest good for humankind is that the maximum number freely follow him and join him in heaven. Therefore, God allows bad people to freely do bad, So that the maximum good which we cannot see, Can come true. God knows what scenarios allow the most people to freely follow him, And knows how to make that scenario happen. So yes, Bad things and God and free will are entirely compatible.
As for do we think that God will control us if he possibly could, The answer is simply no. Ask yourself what is the purpose of puppets following him? He wants us to freely follow him so we can freely love him and accept his love. In order for an all-good being to be all-good, He must be all-loving a loved by forced puppets and loving puppets is no love at all.
If you want more resources on God and his compatibility with evil, I suggest you look at what William Lane Craig has on the subject. Specifically his videos Suffering and Evil: the logical problem and Suffering and Evil: the probability problem.
Debate Round No. 1
backwardseden

Pro

William Craig Lane is a complete sweaty piece of rear end wipe and ALL CREATIONISTS, No exceptions, None, Are worthless. Why? They cannot stand up for their product, Namely their god. When it comes down to the truth of it they are intelligent and educated enough to ---never--- put their god on trial again. Why? Because they 100% know that they will lose every single time. No exceptions, None. Why? Because all they have to go on is faith based oriented and faith cannot be proved.

"Why would you believe anything on faith? Faith isn"t a pathway to truth. Every religion has some sort of faith. If faith is your pathway you can"t distinguish between christianity, Hinduism, Judaism, Any of these others. How is it that you use ---reason--- in every of the other endeavor in your life and then when it comes to the ultimate truth, The most important truth you"re saying that faith is required and how is that supposed to reflect on a god? What kind of a god requires faith instead of evidence? " Matt Dillahunty

"Faith is the reason people give when they don"t have evidence. " Matt Dillahunty
"Faith can be very very dangerous, And deliberately to implant it into the vulnerable mind of an innocent child is a grievous wrong. " Richard Dawkins
"Faith is the great cop-out, The great excuse to evade the need to think and evaluate evidence. Faith is the belief in spite of, Even perhaps because of, The lack of evidence. " Richard Dawkins

"If the God of the Christian Bible is true, Free will does not exist. " I"ve thought of that, However it would imply that the god of the bible exists in which case there is 0% proof that as this immoral worthless pile of dung that truly hates children according to the bible does exist. Otherwise, The entire human race would probably have become extinct since the first writings of the bible in which no god would ---ever--- use text as a form of communication, The worst form of communication possible.
"Tries to defend the idea that the belief itself makes free will impossible, " Describe "belief itself"? That"s 100% different from the arrogant with the lack of self esteem and the being indoctrinated + gullibility factors that must take place in order to believe in the god of the bible through faith.

No one has trouble making the youtube videos work. What do you do to "not" make them work? Yeah believe me I get it, Its very frustrating. About 8 months ago DDO changed its codes so its hard for anything to function properly. But no, I haven"t described anything in this RD that were from the videos.
Galatians 5:13 is tossed and is worthless. Did god himself personally state that verse? Nope.
"There are many Christians who believe that free will is at best limited, " I"ve been doing this for 43+ years and have talked with roughly 22, 000. That"s a very big emphatic "no". "I do deeply believe in free will and believe the Bible is not only compatible with it, But teaches it. " Not through its god in which is based on a superior ego god complex and nothing else.
"punishment of crimes against the old law"" There"s no such a thing as an "old law" according to the god of the bible. Nothing was changed and "his" laws thus remain the same throughout the entire bible both OT and NT. "are against free will, " death is ---always---, No exceptions, None against free will.
However this is a misunderstanding of free will, " No. Sorry. Wrong. Let"s take you for an example" There"s a gunman pointing a shotgun with his nuzzle against your brain POOF dead. There"s your father, You, And your girlfriend all in one room. One of you dies by your choice. That"s not a choice. Choosing with the threat of death looming, Just as 4 of the 10 commandments do is NOT a choice.
"the faculty by which a person decides on and initiates action. " Has nothing to do with your god granting free will. It has 0 to with "the ability to choose between good and evil and whether to follow God freely. " Regardless, Why would anyone want to? Especially if they are educated, Intelligent, Actually read the bible only to find out how completely bankrupt, Immoral and corrupt its god truly is. Murdering 2, 821, 364 in his bible which includes babies, Children, Pregnant mothers (abortions), In which some so-called christians seem to be oh so smug and jolly hamburgers with, And THEY SOMEHOW JUSTIFY IT in which case there"s no justification for it.

"As for God not having free will, It is just simply false. " WRONG! Then you go right ahead and you argue that one with the best minds on the planet who do know one helluva lot better than you. No offense. AND its a correct philosophy that has been thought up and triggered ever since YOUR bible was first put into print.
He is indeed omniscient, But knowing what one will do in advance"" that"s not what was stated. You"re really infuriating me now because just like nearly every so-called christian out there, You simply CAN"T READ, Much less comprehend!

"Now then, You bring up the idea of evil and hate and their compatibility with the idea of free will. " Oh believe me, Once again, Its NOT my point. These are points all well thought out by others thousands of years ago. Now this one is an extremely strong one. And its backed up by a very cartoonish, But funny and gets to the point and is all too real 3rd video. And for you to say you cannot somehow get to the video is a truly HUGE cop out. Actually all three.
"God wanted"" See? That"s why 0 of your arguments hold up. You have no idea what YOUR god wants. Not ever. Guessing doesn"t help.
Then you become mega self defeating" "us to be able to freely follow him or stray away from him. " But wait, You previously stated, Just a few sentences ago "He is indeed omniscient, But knowing what one will do in advance"" Wow. A double negative in which you have absolutely no clue as to what you say. So according to YOU and you alone (obviously), Things are just fine just as long as man does not stray from this god of yours BUT this god of YOURS because he is omniscient, He already, Beforehand, Knows if we will. So according to you" what"s the point in having man on this planet if man is entirely YOUR god"s playthings?
Here"s a fun video for you to watch"
http://www. Youtube. Com/watch? V=Q1_HfhtB5eo - Oats Studios - Volume 1 - God: Serengeti
"What you don't understand is by allowing us free will is what gives those evil things. " WRONG. First off YOUR god IS EVIL as he"s freely admitted it in YOUR fricken bible. How dare you NOT know this. So according to YOU, YOUR god splattered man with reigning evil. Now suppose in any possible way that you are correct. So? What does that solve? What good is that? What can any imbecile or genius possibly learn from it? Better yet, What can any child possibly learn from suffering? If your answer is "nothing", You"ve answered correctly.
"He cannot logically make us free, And take away the emotional and mental capacities to do what is not good, That is just simply not free will. " hat"s a stupid statement. Why not? And according to what? You? How would you know? According to what meatgrinder apocalypse? Yours? Here"s what you so-called christians don"t get is that evil is not a need, Evil is not a necessity, Evil is not a requirement. But according to YOUR god and only your god, It is. Strange isn"t it that Gaia Mother Earth, Nearly all native American Indian tribes (until your dirty christian white beefy hunky sweaty pig brethren nearly wiped them out), The Inca, The aborigines etc etc etc they do not teach nor practice YOUR evil and hate, Its not even close, To what YOUR so-called christian brethren does.
Luis de Molina is also trashed. He was a Spanish Jesuit priest for crying out loud. This means that he like creationists cannot be taken seriously. He relied on faith in which cannot be proved.
Then he continues and thus not knowing the puddle of mood he"s stepped into" "Free will doesn't require that God set those laws to give us infinite possibilities with those laws. " So that"s a major fallacy. Do you understand how? Probably not. "Free will doesn't require that God"" So according to him and with what YOU believe, There is something (oh believe me, There"s plenty more) that is out of YOUR god"s control when your god should be in control of everything, In which he"s clearly not. This is not even a close call. Because dare there be someone and or something that defies your god"s so-called "master/ grand plan" and thus steps beyond it? Shame shame shame.

"In the Christian worldview, . . . " That"s always a bad thing.
"The simple solution is to chuck the bible out because we don"t need it for anything, Even if there are things in it which there undoubtedly are, Even if there are things that are good which there undoubtedly are" they"re not good because they"re in the bible, They"re not good because they come from a god, They are good because they are good, And they are something that we can discover without ever having to appeal to an old book and without having to tap dance around and sacrifice our humanity to make excuses about how we treat rape victims, And how we own people as property, And how there"s some "GRAND CONTEXT" in which all of this isn"t very bad. You have sacrificed your humanity for genuflecting to your religion. And its abominable. " Matt Dillahunty

That joining him in your mythical heaven thing?
"When she dies does she get to go to heaven? If she gets to go to heaven will she be happy? And she"ll probably say "yes". And you say "Will you be able to choose and do anything you want while you are in heaven? " And she"ll say "yes. " And so you are basically saying "you"ll have free will in heaven? " So you have free will in heaven and no one is being hurt, Raped, So you can do anything you want and no one gets hurt. If god has that power in heaven, He must have that power on earth. So he"s chosen not to set that condition/ toggle switch which means he"s a dick. " Phil Ferguson

Am out of space.
longstreet01234

Con

You must be fun at parties.

Ok, So to start off you just personally attack a source I just referenced for more information, He wasn't even part of my argument. Then you spend the next 2 paragraphs on a tangent about faith. This is a debate about free will, Stay on topic (however you force me to address this later on).

So you proceed to talk about the title, And all I was saying is that believing in God doesn't determine whether you have free will or not. If I believe in God, But he doesn't exist, Then my belief has no affect on my free will or with disbelief in God if he is not real.

As for the videos, I tried to watch them so, Again I'm sorry but I'm not watching them. This is a debate between us anyways, Using those videos to argue for you is just lazy.

Now, As for Galatians 5:13, To throw it out is just ludicrous. It is to entirely ignore the Christian belief of biblical inerrancy. You ask a Christian to give you biblical evidence, Understand that the Christian sees the entire Bible as wholly inspired by God. So the idea that you can throw the verse out because it was not God himself saying it is just inaccurate.

Now you proceed to talk about how no Christian you've ever talked to doesn't believe in free will while the vast majority of Christians believe in free will, I personally know of Christians who don't.
You then quote my statement on my beliefs of free will then make an unsubstantiated assertion that I'm wrong, That's nice but show me proof in the Bible.

You proceed to talk about the nonexistence of the old law and you are gravely mistaken. The laws of the old testament were fulfilled with Jesus' death and only the laws stated in the new testament still apply today. That is fundamental Christian theology, And the fact that you debate that with an unsubstantiated assertion is astounding.

Now as for death not being a choice, It is a choice. It's not a choice you like, But it is a choice. To claim otherwise is at best lying to yourself, And at worst intellectually dishonest. The definition of will is "the faculty by which a person decides on and initiates an action. " That is what we're debating, Whether that faculty is controlled directly by God or whether we directly control it. Not whether you think a set of choices is just or unjust, But rather do we freely choose between every choice we are given. My position is not that God gives us choices which seem fair to us throughout this life, Or that we can fully act on every impulse we have, Rather that God has given us the ability to make decisions and thoughts by our own doing, He does not control those faculties. To put it succinctly, We are only as free as is necessary for us to freely follow or to stray from God. Considering that is done through our souls and not our bodies, None of these objections about physical choices hold water.

You proceed to go on a tangent asking why would anyone want to follow God and since it is irrelevant I'm just ignoring it.

You attack my quote on God's free will without substantiation making a textbook example of the appeal to authority fallacy, So there is nothing there for me to address.

You then flip out because I misspoke and said the wrong omni word, Sue me. Change omniscient to omnipotent and it's addressing the exact point you were making.

You then complain about my wording about evil and free will and just refer me to a video, Tell me the argument yourself instead of just pointing to a video, And once again you make an appeal to authority fallacy by saying this argument is thousands of years old.

You then say I become self defeating because I believe that God can know what we will do and that what we do is still free. But the knowledge of one's action's doesn't mean one's actions are not free. The knowledge of an action is just that, The knowledge of it. It has no bearing unless directly acted upon on whether the action is free or not.

After that you bring up if, God knows what we'll do when we're here, Then why have us here at all. You call us God's playthings but I just don't believe that is true. That implies that we are forced by God to do things and that is the topic for the debate. As for the question of why have us here at all, It is part of God's ultimate justice. If God were to send souls away without there being something other than the soul itself to judge us on, It would be immoral. For him to send us away justly, He must have a reason to judge against us, Without this world there is nothing to judge us on.

God doesn't say he is evil in the Bible though if you have a verse I'd be more than happy to read it. That said, You keep saying God is evil and all of that, But what do you have to base that assertion on? If God is real then he sets the ultimate good or he wouldn't be God. Thereby your claim that God is evil requires an objective set of value that could only be found in a perfectly good and divine being like God for him to be considered evil.

After that you ask what good is it that free causes evil. You ask what good can God giving us the capabilities of evil do. God made us free so that we could freely follow him as, Like I asked before, What good is the love of puppets. In order for us to truly be free he must allow us to stray from him and all that is good. It isn't just that suffering is a teacher and can bring us closer to God, Which it can and does, Rather in order for us who to truly follow God freely he must allow us to freely choose to not follow him. As for what can we learn from suffering, We learn that our sins or sin in general has consequences. On top of that, If Christianity is true our goal is not comfort and happiness in this life, Rather to experience that joy and happiness in heaven for eternity. You assume God cannot have morally sufficient reasons to allow suffering, And you refuse to even think it is a possibility.

Now you quote my statement about in order for us to be free he must allow us to freely do evil and you ask why not. Allow me to answer your question with a question, How could we truly be free, If we were not free think, Believe, And attempt at evil things? It is not that God could not do it if logically possible, It is that the idea of freely being forced to choose good everytime, Is just nonsense. We cannot be freely forced to good, It is self-contradictory.

As for Molina, You say nothing of the arguments he makes. You just claim he got them from creationism and is therefore wrong, Thereby you just commit the genetic fallacy.

Ok, For this next part you really make a leap in logic. God cannot make a self-contradiction, To do so is logically impossible. It is not that God lacks the power to do so, It is that the idea of such a thing is purely absurd. My point is that nothing about free will logically requires we be entirely free in every way.

As for someone or something not being in God's plan, Everything is part of or permitted by his plan. The latter is pivotal, It isn't that evil or anything in particular is part of his plan, Rather it is allowed for his plan to come into fruition.

The next part is absolutely absurd. I am talking about the Christian worldview in order to explain how free will and God are coherent, You take that to use an entirely irrelevant quote just to make another attack at Christianity as a whole.

Now, As for free will in heaven, My answer I don't know whether we have free will in heaven as we think of it here, I'm not there. My opinion however is that being in the presence of God alongside having rid ourselves of the flesh, We just simply will have no desire to sin. I know you will say something to the affect of "why doesn't he do that here, And my answer is that he wants us to freely follow him and by constantly being here in order to take away sin would make us less free.

That said my position is I don't know what will happen in heaven, I have no way of knowing, But I don't see the unknown of what's to come as a reason to throw the idea of God and heaven altogether.

I know there was stuff I missed but it was irrelevant information or just more vitriolic attacks at Christians or God.

I just want to finish by saying this, Stay on topic. Arguments about whether God is moral in the Bible or why would anyone want to worship God may be good debate subjects, But they are wholly irrellevant to the idea of free will and God. As such they deserve to be debated elsewhere as part of a larger subject such as morality as a whole or as the subjects themselves. I am sure you will go on to claim how I am just ignorant and can't understand your mental strength about how they are related. . . Yada yada, But if there is any part of you that values logic, Reasoning, And the truth more than your want to spew hatred against God and Christians, Stay on topic. I don't have my expectations set real high though. After a there is a reason you have lost 63 of the deabtes you've done and you've only won 3. Prove me wrong here, Prove to me that you can stay on task and that you value intellectual integrity. Or don't, You have the free will to make that choice, Just like once you do you have the consequences of losing or drawing all but 4% of your debates.
Debate Round No. 2
backwardseden

Pro

This debate is over. Bye.
longstreet01234

Con

I do wish you would continue, I just request you stay on task. I see no reason for you to quit, If you are so much more intelligent than me, You should be able to wipe the floor with me.
Debate Round No. 3
backwardseden

Pro

You are a true 100% contradictory hypocrite.
"As for the videos, I tried to watch them so, Again I'm sorry but I'm not watching them. "
"Now, As for Galatians 5:13, To throw it out is just ludicrous. "

I under no circumstance do I EVER, Not for any reason become involved with people like you. If you do not understand that, Then that's entirely YOUR problem.

If I lose this debate because of my "conduct" in which isn't being harsh at all, Then so be it. Please tc and have fun.
longstreet01234

Con

Isnn't making claims with little to no substantiation amazing. The difference between the videos and the verse were you showed the videos to argue instead of you and you abandoned Galatians (after asking for the verse) because you claimed verse wasn't good enough. As for your conduct, Calling people toilet wipes and stupid is very nice.
There are two types of people in a debate, The ones that you try to debate to change their mind, And the ones you debate to make an example of and change the people's minds who are watching. Unfortunately, You were the latter. You hate the very concept of God. All you've done is call God evil throughout this debate, My guess is for a very deep personal reason, And no amount of logical reasoning or arguments could change your mind, You made that clear. Your closing statement is an attempt to shun responsibility from yourself to how I am a hypocrite. If I am, Show the world, Make an example out of me. And here's a bit of advice, If you have any standards at all you are a hypocrite as we all fail to meet those standards at some point in our lives. To everyone reading this, I encourage you to base your judgement on our arguments, Not the personal issues we have with eachother. I still believe if you do that and vote as such I will win. The basis of his argument rests on claims which he himself has failed to defend. He has failed to even frame the question so that it makes any logical sense because he doesn't want to risk implying God exists. Is that not what this debate's been about? Have I not tried to focus on of God of the Christian Bible exists we have free will? Have I not shown multiple fallacies in his objections to my arguments as well as fallacies and inconsistincies in his? My goal has been to focus on the issue, While his goal has been to attack me and any person I loosely reference. He made a character assasination attempt on a 500 year old Spanish Guy for crying out loud. As Socrates said "When the debate is lost, Slander becomes the tool of the loser. " My only request is you judge who, Regardless of who you agreed with before, Had the better argument. I do hope my opponent changes his mind and comes to find Christ, Because I in earnest want nothing bad for him. I fear however he will live out his days as a testament to the verse Psalm 14:1 "Only the fool says in his heart there is no God. " Based on these arguments, I have no reason to think to the contrary. Thank you again for opportunity to debate, No matter how horrible you think I am and no matter how deeply this degradated.
Debate Round No. 4
21 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by omar2345 3 years ago
omar2345
Difficult to be consistent.
Posted by backwardseden 3 years ago
backwardseden
Omar yeah conduct IS part of a debate. It pushes people into a corner. After doing it for so long, I do have an entrapment for it and know how to bait people, Especially teens and those that really don't know what they are talking about. Naturally I do get fed up with it from time to time and can only deal with it up to a certain point. And of course there's some characters that are super easy to take potshots at. But as always I truly hope for those that are intelligent and educated in which in religion and god from an opponents standpoint and is so extremely rare.
Posted by backwardseden 3 years ago
backwardseden
@longstreet01234 - "The issue is everytime I post a debate it says that it has been taken down by customer service immediately after posting. " Happens all the time to everyone. About a year or so ago, DDO completely changed its codes from accepting links, To not accepting them. You could even post youtube videos. Now, And for some really stupid idea, Notice after every comma the next word is capitalized? WHY? Notice after ever number there's a space afterward. WHY? Now I agree with you that sometimes, Just sometimes "The issue is everytime I post a debate it says that it has been taken down by customer service immediately after posting. " It all depends on what you are posting. And its really hard to define what that is. DDO really hates bible verses. DDO really hates the usage of the copy and paste of articles from other websites. They were fine with it a couple of months ago. Etc
Posted by omar2345 3 years ago
omar2345
@backwardseden

"Do you really think they read the arguments? "
Then there would be in denial.
You are right but you can be more right by removing bad conduct. Overall as in a debate not the argument itself.
They cannot default to that position and would be forced to make an argument.
Which then you can find the flaws and beat them by your arguments and not give them anyway of wining the debate.
Posted by backwardseden 3 years ago
backwardseden
Omar "To me you a typical theist would not have anything credible to vote against you if you kept it to the arguments. " Do you really think they read the arguments? That's the thing, They automatically think they have the answers for something in which they know nothing about. Longstreet01234 is a perfect example. Galatians 5:13 is completely and will always be useless in proving that if you believe in god you have free will because his god had 0 to say with that, Or any other verse to granting man free will in his bible and he doesn't get it.
Posted by omar2345 3 years ago
omar2345
@longstreet01234

Before you post your argument. Copy it or do it in Word or Google docs.
If it does not allow you to post copy each paragraph in the comments of that debate so that you find which paragraph is the problem then copy each line and then hopefully you know what the problem is.
Posted by longstreet01234 3 years ago
longstreet01234
I haven't been adding links, I'll just try again and just ask you to accept the first round that way there isn't a chance for the site to think there's a link.
Posted by omar2345 3 years ago
omar2345
"been taken down by customer service immediately after posting. "
I don't think it is that.
It happens to me when I include links.
To not make this a problem do not link instead add the headline and where it is from.
Example: Orange Man Bad (CNN)

"And if there is a way I can, I'll vote against him just to make things fair. "
You can't but thanks for saying you will anyway.
Posted by longstreet01234 3 years ago
longstreet01234
The issue is everytime I post a debate it says that it has been taken down by customer service immediately after posting. I will make it clear that this has all been discussed prior and I will go ahead and define those terms when it starts. If he votes I will just consider it null, And if there is a way I can, I'll vote against him just to make things fair.
Posted by omar2345 3 years ago
omar2345
@longstreet01234

If you tell me what the problem is.
I might be able to know what it is or direct you to someone else who might know.

"If you want to try to rebut my arguments I can, Though if you would want to add arguments against me I would appreciate that too. "
Make it clear in the debate as well.
Make sure also you define your words.
Examples of definitions I want: God, Free will, Etc.
If Round 1 is acceptance I will make sure to add that in my Round 1 acceptance just to make sure you are reminded to do so.
By the way dsjpk5 will vote against and hopefully someone would cancel that if not hopefully you consider the dsjpk5 vote to not matter.
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by omar2345 3 years ago
omar2345
backwardsedenlongstreet01234Tied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:--Vote Checkmark3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:10 
Reasons for voting decision: since dsjpk5 likes to counter my vote. I will do the same. Evidence: https://www.debate.org/debates/The-god-of-the-bible-and-the-bible-has-no-place-in-a-modern-civilized-society/2/
Vote Placed by dsjpk5 3 years ago
dsjpk5
backwardsedenlongstreet01234Tied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:--Vote Checkmark3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:01 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro called Con a "hypocrite". That's poor conduct.

By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use.