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The Instigator
Leaning
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
killshot
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

Immortality above all else

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Post Voting Period
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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 2/8/2019 Category: Philosophy
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 518 times Debate No: 120230
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (0)
Votes (0)

 

Leaning

Pro

Ach, I simply must find someone to talk with this about. Sure I could try another site for a more active forum, But I am fond of this site. So to the debate section I go!

Pretty much, In this debate I take the side that immortality, Existing, Being alive should be held as one of the highest values of a human, If not th'e highest value. By that I mean more than living your life, But actively searching for some way to vastly prolong it in a fashion more than diet and safe living.

I mean whatever the means, Mind uploading, Cloning, Genetic engineering, Cryogenics, Immoral methods, Yada and so on. Such a pursuit is what should matter to a person.

Now then rules, If you accept this debate, You accept the 'spirit of the debate. Voters are free to vote as they wish without being tied down by RFD, But I would be appreciative for voters being honest and good sports about it, As well as saying something if they'd like.

If you desire any clarifications regarding the debate, Just' ask me in the comments.
killshot

Con

I'm not sure I would want to live forever, But that's just a subjective speculation lol.

What about the environmental consequences of people living forever? How would we sustain them (global warming, Food, Shelter, Jail, Etc)? We have a finite amount of resources and our population grows exponentially. We are already pushing boundaries.

What about the moral consequences? We would be basically performing artificial selection on ourselves.

In order for this to be a 1st priority, I feel like we would need to first figure out how to sustain immortal life. Perhaps space stations? Colonization of Mars and other planets?
Debate Round No. 1
Leaning

Pro

1st priority for a nation or a society I agree, Probably wouldn't be immortality. To myself that does not mark out immortality being the 1st priority of an individual. Though as you point out, It is subjective speculation. I would not think that theists or spiritual people with a belief in some life after this one would be expected to have living forever on Earth as their highest priority.

But speaking for myself, With no belief of anything after. Existence, To me, Is all that there is. Moral consequences there would be, Though I'm leaning toward saying that it would not matter whatever the consequences, If 'I could still exist. Lucky me, I'm thinking the consequences would not be so much bad morality, As they are changing society.
Society, I assert, Has near always been in constant change throughout human history whenever some new tech, Environment, Law, Social condition has come about. That we would change again is no great loss.

Artificial selection. . . Population, And as you say, The limited space and all the issues with it. . .
This does not seem to me to be too different than our current condition. I expect that something must change in our society from where it currently is to try some method of coping with our ballooning population.

On the other hand, The environment might do something itself, The people might choose to live more in virtual reality than reproduce, Perhaps government and country shall decree a one child policy. . The point being that immortality, While possibly exacerbating a problem, Would not be causing a new one. A problem that surely requires a solution, Better sooner than Too Late.

An argument for the good of society could be that brilliant minds are sadly lost to ageing and disease. That if they were allowed to continue and grow, Might add leaps and bounds to the progress of humanity across many fields.

Ah, But I still need to address the artificial selection bit. Eh, I say. Competition and luxury is again part of the human condition thus far. People of means live better and longer lives. People who aim for certain parts in life are more likely to have 'it than those who do not.
killshot

Con

You raised a good point about religion that I was actually planning to bring up in my next round. I don't think any religious people would be interested in immortality and missing out on their promised rewards in the afterlife.

You said "Artificial selection. . . Population, And as you say, The limited space and all the issues with it. . .
This does not seem to me to be too different than our current condition. "

This to me seems drastically different. Currently we have people dying between the ages of 1-100ish. Their footprints and impacts on the environment and resources are released when they die. If we have people living forever, Whatever that would mean, We have astronomically increased this demand.

You said "On the other hand, The environment might do something itself, The people might choose to live more in virtual reality than reproduce, Perhaps government and country shall decree a one child policy. . The point being that immortality, While possibly exacerbating a problem, Would not be causing a new one. A problem that surely requires a solution, Better sooner than Too Late. "

This is very speculative and doesn't sound well thought out, No offense intended. It also hints of socialism. Immortality would be causing many new problems. One example - how would a life sentence in prison work? We would have prisons overran with life-time inmates that would exponentially waste our resources and footprint. Also, What is a life sentence? Is there a crime that is worth punishing someone for eternity? Would that be comparable to Hell on earth? Laws would need to be revised. This would have drastic impacts on socioeconomics and many other political domains.

You said "An argument for the good of society could be that brilliant minds are sadly lost to ageing and disease. That if they were allowed to continue and grow, Might add leaps and bounds to the progress of humanity across many fields. "

Maybe, Or maybe AI and quantum computing is the future think tank.

This debate seems to be centered around whether an individual should seek immortality above all else. At it's core, This is very subjective so it's hard to debate when it's just opinions. The only thing I can really debate is why it's a bad idea, Using logical arguments that would prohibit or hinder the future our of species.
Debate Round No. 2
Leaning

Pro

Subjective ja, A'nd here we come to the extreme part of my argument. That I'm arguing that my own personal perspective on the correctness of immortality is or ought to be preferable. Honestly it's also part of the reason the social consequences are not all that well thought out.

Your profile has your religion listed as atheist, So I'll assume, But let me know if not. That we agree that people of religious persuasion are wrong in their interpretation of life in the case of religion being true. I'll even go farther with taking an unconfirmed assumption that you are not convinced that there is any other afterlife other than we rot after death, Maybe fertilizing the soil or returning to dust so to speak.

'If those two assumptions are correct, Then between the two of us we can dismiss the religious from 'this debate. Though there are still are atheists and plenty of other people in life who may prefer death to living, We can come back to them later.

When I say the situation is not that different, I mean that it looks to me as though we are going to suffer a population crisis regardless. That we will experience a negative feedback regardless. Though my motivation is self concerning, I'll try for others. Technology and medication, In general I'll assert is not cheap. I would not currently expect everyone in the world to be able to afford immortality any more than anyone can afford expensive health care. Many can, But not all, And not for all types of health care.

On how immortality would effect society. I agree that it would have a drastic impact on many parts of society, But refer you to my round 2 argument, Changes come to society. An individual or a country attempting refusing jet fighters, Advanced medicine, Or Entertainment Consoles will not prevent them from coming in due time.
For the prison system in general, Including life sentences, Many people agree that changes need to be made currently. I have no doubt that even without immortality, As we discover new technologies and develop our society further, Prison will see drastic changes in due time.

Ah, And now to the individual.
Self interest, Greed, The point in life generally to me. Existence. To be. I like being alive. I don't want to die. To me. . All of these ring clearly to my feelings.

I see pursuing immortality as being no different than avoiding a clear cut life threat. If I were at a campground and a grizzly was wandering over to check out my pic-a-nic basket, I'd get into my car and take a drive. If I was wandering on the beach and noticed a sudden recession of the tide, I'd be running inland in hope of avoiding the wave. Were I to have diabetes in some fashion, Going to have to follow some doctors orders and steps to want to live a long life.

But this fixation of mine on immortality, Is because of a hope of mine that immortality in some form is achievable. Even if I were to have to form my own company, Cult, Or country, And in the manner of a Civilizations game set the research to 100% to hope to reach it. I'd see it the same as those scenarios, I want to live. We live in a society where euthanasia is gaining slight acceptability. But suicide? Not so much I'm thinking.

Would you agree with me that people, Should desire to live and exist? We may 'try not to choose or force other people to live their lives our way, But still I assert we have beliefs on how we should go about life. I say, That even with being beliefs, Certain beliefs are more prominent of people. Of humans. Of you and me.
killshot

Con

You are correct in assuming I am an atheist, And I don't believe in any form of life after death or any other spiritual nonsense.

You said "Would you agree with me that people, Should desire to live and exist? "
I would say generally speaking, Of course.

If this debate is only about your personal subjective feelings towards mortality, Then sure, I agree that you can have any views/desires you want. I'm confused on what I'm supposed to debate here haha.

Off subject, But since we aren't really "debating", You might find it interesting. Are you familiar with telomeres? They could be the secret to the immortality you seek. If you're not familiar with them, You should Google them :)

About the only other way I know of for you to reach your goals is to find a way to have infinite mass so you can travel at/faster than the speed of light. Objects move slower through time as they move towards the speed of light. If you could find a way to do that, Problem solved. Although, An infinite mass is theoretically impossible.
Debate Round No. 3
Leaning

Pro

This is my third debate on immortality. What am I seeking with it? Debating for? I think it's validation. That immortality no matter the cost to myself or others can be justified. Sure, Anything 'can be justified. But, I'm 'trying to be reasonable about all this. Thing is, I'm coming to another crossroad in my life, Where I have to decide on what path to take. Sure I can choose to not choose, Settle on down to the side of the road under some tree shading over some lush and comfortable grass for a nap or a meal. But, I don't have forever to wait and think, Some parts in life are time sensitive.

I have heard of telomeres, Basic concept as I take it is they keep losing bits as they replicate and this causes aging.

I'm pretty sure 'true immortality is impossible. But I'd settle for being able to flip a coin a thousand times a day and being able to live as long as it landed on heads at least once.

I've been rather rudderless since High School. Spent a couple years being a NEET, But a mix of a parasitic life being unfulfilling, Encouragement to get a job, Fear of death without immortality, Fear of never succeeding all my life, I got a job for about five years. Finish up with it in six months. Started with nothing, But saved a bit since then. But what now?

I can't go back to living at home, And fortunately have the means not to. Any job I can think of does not appeal, Nor does waiting for meaning to come to me.

Grasping at immortality though. . That sounds fulfilling. To me, Sounds full of purpose and right in meaning on what a human should strive for. . . And so we come back around to validation. I mean what I say, No matter the cost. No matter the immoral price. But, My knee jerks at that. Generally, We want to fit in, Confirm with our society in at least some fashion seen as positive.

Hah, A mix of morality and reasonability in the odds against success. But despite that, A figurative horned shadow on my shoulder whispers of ego. That I'm right in my conclusions that people should value existence, Particularly their own more than anything else. That even if it were a one in a million chance, Immortality is worth the effort.
killshot

Con

You said "This is my third debate on immortality. What am I seeking with it? Debating for? I think it's validation. That immortality no matter the cost to myself or others can be justified. "

This sounds very selfish and unrealistic. Immortality is an age old concept and goal for many people. Although there has been progress in the scientific field, Like I mentioned with telomeres, I don't see a solution arising anytime soon. It's certainly unlikely to be in our lifetimes. Do you have any background in biology? Is this something that's even attainable as a short term goal?

It sounds like you're going through a life crisis where you're looking for meaning or distraction? If this is what you want to chase, Go for it. I don't really have an argument against this, Because it's subjective. Maybe a therapist would be a better first goal? Someone to talk to and work through your issues. I'm just going to be honest with you - you're not going to be immortal. You should probably revise your short term goals to something else.

You said "I've been rather rudderless since High School. Spent a couple years being a NEET, But a mix of a parasitic life being unfulfilling, Encouragement to get a job, Fear of death without immortality, Fear of never succeeding all my life, I got a job for about five years. Finish up with it in six months. Started with nothing, But saved a bit since then. But what now? "

I agree you should value existence, But perhaps pick a reasonable goal? Find a field of study that interests you and go to college for that field. You certainly won't find immortality in a roll of the dice.
Debate Round No. 4
Leaning

Pro

Haa, Yeah, That's the reasonable thing I'm thinking too. But despite reason, People have desire. I'll agree it's incredibly selfish and unrealistic with our 'current technology. But a hundred years from now? Two hundred and so on? I don't expect it in the next five or ten years, I even find it unlikely in fifty or a hundred.

I have no background in biology other than High School, And a short term goal? No. But to me the clear cut solution is to instead acquire power and or money. A feat one sees replicated in history and life a thousand times, And a thousand times again. Will a person become rich or powerful, Always if they try? No, But trying helps. Is it even likely? Perhaps not. But is such an attempt worthy of effort? I'm not sure. . . But, I'll say yes.

To try to become a scientist myself and research alone or with others is limiting. Better to ensure that others, Many others are researching various routes. Are well funded. If I were to choose cryogenics as my method to attempt immortality for myself, I'd need to make sure I've built up a legacy that's willing to bring me back if they should find it in the future. Rather than toss my frozen corpse to the Earth.

A lifetimes worth of effort, It could be. But even while striving toward some goal, There are moments of rest, Enjoyment. A hinge of my argument is that for a materialst such as myself, Or you. . There is nothing else. This is it. Are we not to attempt to safeguard our own lives in whatever fashion we might? Even if a flimsy attempt, Should we not struggle to live? I say, That to do less is suicidal. And suicide, Ought be unnacceptable.

Waiting for age is not a gun, A knife, Or a noose. But it is similar to starving oneself to death, Not fleeing a danger or not resisting it. . . 'If, Aging and common disease is preventable. And I'm thinking there's reason enough to believe there's a chance of it. There's at least more of a life time to live than any human has lived before. The barest edges are there. All the technological marvels of the past man once could not even concieve, And thoese too that he once only dreamed. Primitive immortality in animals. The concept of how our pace in technology has grown faster 'n faster over the years as we achieve more and more, "AI and quantum computing".

The final rub not enough addressed but to late now in this debate, Is ego. And mine, If in the right circumstance, Could rate itself above each and every human on this Earth, Even all combined and weighed against my one life. My blood more than gas, Flesh more than caviar, My bones better to me than solid gold. Eeesh, That's a bit much narasasistic. But ah well. Not quite addressable now at the end.

I have considered talking to a therapist, But I've also decided against it so far. The exact reason I can't think of off the top of my head. Bah, I've been in an existential crisis ever since I finished High School and decided I did not think God existed, Nihilism, Hedonism, Materialism following after that. Though it didn't have to I suppose. Sure I could buy a trailer or rent an apartment with the money I have now, Travel the world for a 'short time, Get a job, Try to find a person to love or not. Enjoy life, Books, Food, And walks. Write a book or something. . . But I can never seem to find such plans satisfying. Immortality isn't quite either, But, Living seems a worthy goal.

Two last points I'll reiterate is even a slim chance should be taken in some circumstances. The other point is that 'I think there are multitude of paths one might take to extend his life.

I've enjoyed the conversation. But we've come to the end of it, This final round.
killshot

Con

Ya, Good chat. I wish you the best! Good luck on your endeavors!
Debate Round No. 5
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