The Instigator
backwardseden
Pro (for)
Tied
1 Points
The Contender
Christfollower
Con (against)
Tied
1 Points

In no way was this country founded on christian morals. . . Thankfully

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Post Voting Period
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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 3/4/2019 Category: Politics
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 651 times Debate No: 120616
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (11)
Votes (2)

 

backwardseden

Pro

"The government of the United States is not, In any sense, Founded on the Christian religion. " John Adams

* http://www. Huffingtonpost. Com/jeff-schweitzer/founding-fathers-we-are-n_b_6761840. Html Founding Fathers: We Are Not a Christian Nation

* This from Thomas Jefferson in an April 11, 1823, Letter to John Adams:

The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus by the Supreme Being in the womb of a virgin, Will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter. . . . But we may hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with all this artificial scaffolding. . . .

* Declaration of Independence (1776)

The most important assertion in this document is that "to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, Deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. "

Note that the power of government is derived not from any god but from the people. No appeal is made in this document to a god for authority of any kind. In no case are any powers given to religion in the affairs of man.

Remember, Too, That this document was not written to form or found a government but was stating intent in a way that was meant to appeal to an audience with European sensibilities. Only four times is there any reference at all to higher powers " "Laws of Nature and of Nature"s God, " "Supreme Judge of the world, " "their Creator, " and "divine Providence" " and in all four cases the references to a higher power appeal to the idea of inherent human dignity, Never implying a role for a god in government.

Proof that this country was not founded on religion and christianity https://www. Youtube. Com/watch? V=3sApQ80QRiE - Neil deGrasse Tyson - "Do you believe in god? "

* The constitution NEVER mentions the word "god".

* The Treaty of Tripoli (Treaty of Peace and Friendship between the United States of America and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli of Barbary) was the first treaty concluded between the United States and Tripolitania, Signed at Tripoli on November 4, 1796, And at Algiers (for a third-party witness) on January 3, 1797. It was submitted to the Senate by President John Adams, Receivingratification unanimously from the U. S. Senate on June 7, 1797, And signed by Adams, Taking effect as the law of the land on June 10, 1797
Article 11 reads:
Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, In any sense, Founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, Religion, Or tranquility, Of Mussulmen (Muslims); and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan (Mohammedan) nation, It is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

* Also 9 of the 10 commandments this country does not obey nor follow as YOUR god set into his ridiculous laws in which if not followed, 4 of them are supposed to be punishable by death. Really?
* Do you think you should be put to death just because you blaspheme? Y____? N____? Your god thinks so. Leviticus 24:16 "And he that blasphemeth the name of the Lord, He shall surely be put to death, And all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, As he that is born in the land, When he blasphemeth the name of the Lord, Shall be put to death. "
* Do you think you should die if you work on the sabbath? Y____? N____? Your god thinks so. Exodus 31:14 "Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, That soul shall be cut off from among his people. ", Numbers 15: 32-36 " And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, They found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. 33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, And unto all the congregation. 34 And they put him in ward, Because it was not declared what should be done to him. 35 And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp. 36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, And stoned him with stones, And he died; as the Lord commanded Moses. " Notice jesus worked on the sabbath, He was not put to death. Strange? That supposed "law" that christians use is in ill effect and does not work.
* Do you think you should die for merely cursing at your parents? Y____? N____? Your god thinks so. Exodus 21:17 "And he that curseth his father, Or his mother, Shall surely be put to death. , Leviticus 20:9 "For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him. ", Mark 7:10 "For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, Let him die the death:, Matthew 15:4 "For God commanded, Saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, Let him die the death. "
* Do you think you should die if you commit adultery? Y____? N____? Your god thinks so. Leviticus 20:10 "And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, Even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, The adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death. "

Rules:
Prove that this country was founded on christian morals.

dsjpk5 is disqualified from voting in the voting process as he likes to play god.
Christfollower

Con

My opponent has put a convincing argument. However, It has many holes.
My opening statement:
Let us start with the pledge of allegiance. It states. "one nation, UNDER GOD. . . Etc"
That shows that there must have been a God that they were referring to.

America was founded on three documents: The Declaration of Independence; The Paris Peace Treaty of 1783, And the Constitution. These documents give conclusive proof that America is a Christian nation. One does not need a law degree or a degree in history to grasp this truth. It is obvious to the most casual observer. Let us review the documents and show this proof.

Declaration of Independence:

The Declaration has many references to God throughout the document. The most famous one is that men are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights.

"We hold these Truths to be self-evident, That all Men are created equal, That they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, That among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness"

Here are more references to God found in the document:
Laws of Nature and of Nature"s God"
Appealing to the Supreme Judge of the World"
With a firm Reliance on the Protection of Divine Providence"

The Declaration of Independence does not identify the God whom they are addressing. This could be left open to interpretation and opinion.

The Constitution:

The body of the Constitution makes no reference to God. The Constitution honors the Christian Sabbath. The President was given 10 days to sign a bill into law. The counting of the 10 days does not include the Sabbath. This is found in Article 1, Section 7, And Clause 2 which in part follows:

"If any Bill shall not be returned by the President within ten Days (Sundays excepted) after it shall have been presented to him, The Same shall be a Law, "

When the Constitution was completed on September 17, 1787, It was signed by the delegates then to be ratified by the states. The delegates signed the Constitution in the "Year of our Lord. " This is a direct reference to Christianity. This is found in Article 7 which in part follows:

"Done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven and of the Independence of the United States of America the Twelfth In witness whereof We have hereunto subscribed our Names, GO WASHINGTON"Presidt. And deputy from Virginia"

The Paris Peace Treaty of 1783:

The Paris Peace Treaty was the document which formally ended the Revolution and granted the United States independence from Great Britain. In a real sense, The United States formally became a nation on September 3, 1783.

When the United States became a nation, It was done in the "name of the most holy and undivided Trinity. " The preamble to this Treat states it is based upon the "Holy and undivided Trinity. " The concept of the holy Trinity is unique to Christianity. This statement means the United States was founded on the Christian faith. The complete Preamble follows:

"In the name of the most holy and undivided Trinity"

The Treaty then ends just like the Constitution with a statement it is being signed in the "Year of our Lord. " The witnesses representing the United States were John Adams, Benjamin Franklin, John Jay and D. Hartley. The section in part follows:
"In witness whereof we the undersigned, Their ministers plenipotentiary, Have in their name and in virtue of our full powers, Signed with our hands the present definitive treaty and caused the seals of our arms to be affixed thereto. Done at Paris, This third day of September in the year of our Lord, One thousand seven hundred and eighty-three"

D. HARTLEY
JOHN ADAMS
B. FRANKLIN
JOHN JAY

When this concept is applied to the Declaration of Independence, It is clear the reference to "All men are created equal, " was about the holy Trinity. The people of the United States are endowed by their Creator, The holy Trinity, With certain unalienable Rights, That among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness.

The God of the Bible is whom the United States is based upon. The unalienable rights of life, Liberty and pursuit of happiness come from the Judeo/Christian God and no one else. He is the Rock of our Republic.
Debate Round No. 1
backwardseden

Pro

I really hate debating 16 year olds who think they know something about nothing and yet they pretend that they do.

"Let us start with the pledge of allegiance. " OK let"s. Do you know how many times "under god" has been removed? Oh and btw, The pledge of allegiance was not a staple food diet under the foundation of this nation as it was composed in 1892. AND the words "under god" were not added into it until 1954. You might want to check up on that"
https://en. Wikipedia. Org/wiki/Pledge_of_Allegiance
So that one loser for you.

NEXT!

The Declaration of Independence"
Look kid, I"m not going to sit here all day and humiliate you. Now if you would have looked at what was posted in RD 1, Rather than clinging to your happy helmet all dressed in cow chirp band aids you would have found out"
"The most important assertion in this document is that "to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, Deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. "

Note that the power of government is derived not from any god but from the people. No appeal is made in this document to a god for authority of any kind. In no case are any powers given to religion in the affairs of man.

Remember, Too, That this document was not written to form or found a government but was stating intent in a way that was meant to appeal to an audience with European sensibilities. Only four times is there any reference at all to higher powers " "Laws of Nature and of Nature"s God, " "Supreme Judge of the world, " "their Creator, " and "divine Providence" " and in all four cases the references to a higher power appeal to the idea of inherent human dignity, Never implying a role for a god in government. "

NEXT!

Now we"re going to completely ignore "The Paris Peace Treaty of 1783, . " because that"s just like saying that gravity falls upward helped shaped this country. In other words, You picked one of thousands of things that shaped this country.

NEXT!

The Constitution, Once again, There"s no mentioning of the word "god" in it. Sorry, There"s no getting around that. And you can invent all the hillbilly hacksaw inventions you want.

Btw, Did you take a look at the Neil DeGrasse Tyson video that 100% proves you wrong? No? I didn"t think so. So here"s the video again"
https://www. Youtube. Com/watch? V=3sApQ80QRiE&t=192s - Neil deGrasse Tyson - "Do you believe in god? "

Did you bother reading the Huffington Post article with one helluva lot of content that you cannot refute? No? I didn"t think so. So here it is again.
https://www. Huffingtonpost. Com/jeff-schweitzer/founding-fathers-we-are-n_b_6761840. Html - Founding Fathers: We Are Not a Christian Nation
----------
Now let"s dig into something that you haven"t thought about nor did the founding fathers, Just like the pledge of allegiance that you tried to neatly sneak in"
How moral are you? Well to put it bluntly, How moral are you in comparison to what you think the founding fathers were to what you think of how supposedly christian they supposedly they were, In which case, Obviously there"s no such a thing?
Here"s a small little test for you. All the answers clearly require a "no" response. If you say "yes" to any of these 6 questions, Then its as plain as day that you are as immoral as your god. Regardless if you say "no", Then you disobey your god.
So don"t you think that the founding fathers in being "moral" would have seen through these crackerjack loopholes and not gone along with them? Oh btw, There"s no such a thing as christ changing god"s law, Because god"s law was "perfect", And thus could not be changed, And christ was thus a false prophet to begin with. Regardless, The NT is far far far worse with morality than the OT Ready?
According to your god you should be put to death if you blaspheme. Do you think that's a good idea? Y____? N____? Leviticus 24:16, According to your god you should be put to death if you work on the sabbath. Do you think that's a good idea? Y____? N____? Exodus 31:14, And Numbers 15: 32-36, According to your god you should be put to death if you curse at your parents. Do you think that's a good idea? Y____? N____? Exodus 21:17, Leviticus 20:9, Mark 7:10, Matthew 15:4, According to your god you should be put to death if you commit adultery. Do you think that's a good idea? Y____? N____? Leviticus 20:10. That's directly from your 10 commandments. Here are some other things that YOUR god thinks you should be put to death for. . . According to your god you should be put to death if you are a homosexual? Do you think that's a good idea? Y___? N____? Leviticus 20:13, According to your god you should be put to death if you do not worship him. Do you think that's a good idea? Y____? N____? Deuteronomy 13: 9-10 and Deuteronomy 17: 2-5.

Now here"s two short videos to back up exactly to the letter those statements"
http://www. Youtube. Com/watch? V=vkXOwBIRX7Y&t=123s - top 10 reasons why the bible is repulsive
http://www. Youtube. Com/watch? V=x-slAgzJmdU - Why Does Every Intelligent christian disobey jesus?
So the bible IS repulsive as you nor anyone follows it. And whether you wish to think so or not, ---everybody---, No exceptions, None, Disobeys jesus.
Christfollower

Con

After reading my opponent's last argument, I found it more of an attack on me than the topic being debated which is a HORRIBLE way of debating. Debating should only be about the topic, Not the person. I will outline some examples that he used in trying to attack me.
These are statements he used to attack me, Which is just disrespectful is so many ways.

-Rather than clinging to your happy helmet all dressed in cow chirp band aids you would have found out"

-Btw, Did you take a look at the Neil DeGrasse Tyson video that 100% proves you wrong? No? I didn"t think so. So here"s the video again"

-How moral are you? That question is completely irrelevant.

and all this garbage
According to your god you should be put to death if you blaspheme. Do you think that's a good idea? Y____? N____? Leviticus 24:16, According to your god you should be put to death if you work on the sabbath. Do you think that's a good idea? Y____? N____? Exodus 31:14, And Numbers 15: 32-36, According to your god you should be put to death if you curse at your parents. Do you think that's a good idea? Y____? N____? Exodus 21:17, Leviticus 20:9, Mark 7:10, Matthew 15:4, According to your god you should be put to death if you commit adultery. Do you think that's a good idea? Y____? N____? Leviticus 20:10. That's directly from your 10 commandments. Here are some other things that YOUR god thinks you should be put to death for. . . According to your god you should be put to death if you are a homosexual? Do you think that's a good idea? Y___? N____? Leviticus 20:13, According to your god you should be put to death if you do not worship him. Do you think that's a good idea? Y____? N____? Deuteronomy 13: 9-10 and Deuteronomy 17: 2-5.

all 100% irrelevant. That has nothing to do with this argument.
Oh, And I don't have to know anything, I just have to show that other people do.
Wikipedia, Really, Everyone agrees that is a bad source.

Back to the debate. .

My opponent states:
Now we"re going to completely ignore "The Paris Peace Treaty of 1783, . " because that"s just like saying that gravity falls upward helped shaped this country. In other words, You picked one of thousands of things that shaped this country.
Ok, If there are thousands of things that shaped this country, Why don't we ignore the declaration of independence? Or the constitution?

Constitution:
Just because it doesn't mention the word God, Doesn't mean it was not implied.
"If any Bill shall not be returned by the President within ten Days (Sundays excepted) after it shall have been presented to him, The Same shall be a Law, "
That shows that they had respect for Sundays, The day Christians call the Sabbath.

Declaration of Independence:

"We hold these Truths to be self-evident, That all Men are created equal, That they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, That among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness"
That sure sounds like an actual God.

Here my opponent tests my faith, Attacking the person, Not the topic.
"Here"s a small little test for you. All the answers clearly require a "no" response. If you say "yes" to any of these 6 questions, Then it's as plain as day that you are as immoral as your god. Regardless if you say "no", Then you disobey your god. "
It is so irrelevant I won't even answer the questions. If my opponent is going to say i am "weak" he is lying. That would be another attack on me, Not the topic. Poor conduct.
Debate Round No. 2
backwardseden

Pro

Yeah its an attack on you for being so completely ignorant and inventing excuses for something in which you clearly know nothing about and yet you pretend that you do, And because you don't you have to invent excuses for it.

Regardless, I'm such an idiot. I really am. I missed it completely. I am such an imbecile, A complete moronsville, A stupdsville caught in a dumpster with his head chopped off by rodents in a lab experiment by weary dreary snuggles that my opponent pretends to be because he like sooooooo many so-called christians cannot do is READ. Now exactly what does the very first thing in RD1 state? And yet what does my opponent state for a signature of The Paris Peace Treaty is? He'd better go back and check up on that one as his salad got spin-itched between his noodle pie in which he happens to call a brain.

Now let's move on shall we?

Let's ask the question again. Did you look at the Neil Degrasse Tyson video? Why no you didn't. It is completely relevant and beyond your 16 year old dimwitted dullard noosed sow snot meat furry tongue to grasp at how relevant it is. So watch it, Because we both know you haven't. Its---not---my---job to be a thorn in your you know where areas and present you with blast off rockets evidence just because you cannot understand or follow it, That's yours. So that whimsical Swahili version of the Constitution that you present from someone WHO KNOWS IT A LOT BETTER THAN YOU, And me also, Just doesn't cut your furry feathers.
However it "Does not recognize a discoverable, Knowable god and makes no special laws or privileges for him"

I noticed you completely ignored the pledge of allegiance ideal you presented. That shows right off the bat you don't have the foggiest idea as to what you are squawking about.

OK let's rephrase since you think you are so smort, Oh sorry, Smart. Now remember, This is about MORALITY since you truly have no idea, None as to what that is, None. . . Let's puts some nouns and verbs into your toxic little zit brain, K? How much of the bumbling babbling big black baby brained bible do you think that the founders actually incorporated into American law? Now don't think too hard before it gives you a true headache. Duh, Oh sorry, Once again a trip of my fingers, Sorry, My bad, Did yah come up with an answer? Yeah its practically nothing. They like you and all so-called christians, Because once again, There's no such a thing as a christian, You do what you want with your bible. You take massive liberties with it. You take what you THINK AND DREAM ARE THE GOOD PARTS FROM IT and you chuck the rest to what suits you best for your wants, Needs and desires. Oh yeah, That's exactly to the letter what the founders did. To prove it, They completely ignored the 10 commandments of all things except for one. They sure as s--t didn't care about the first 4. So the below is 100% relevant. Let's see how yah do sonny. Once again if yah state any "yes" votes, You are as immoral as your god. All 6 questions, 2 have been added from the previous RD, Require a "no" vote. However if you say "no", Then you go against your god. Whhhhhooopsie! Now do you think that the founders had the same exact problem? Awe gee, Could it be oh could it be indeed that they were at a crossroad themselves because they like you could not answer the questions properly? DUH! So don't tell me these questions are not relevant BOY when I've been doing this 3x your miserable existence. So let's begin. Now if you do not answer these questions, Then what it will say to me is that you are a true coward and that you have no interest in this debate and you don't care about ---any--- morality from anywhere and that this debate has come to a close. Oh and golly! 4 of the questions come from the 10 commandments.
According to your god you should be put to death if you blaspheme. Do you think the founding fathers thought it was a good idea? Y____? N____? Leviticus 24:16, According to your god you should be put to death if you work on the sabbath. Do you think the founding fathers thought it was a good idea? Y____? N____? Exodus 31:14, And Numbers 15: 32-36, According to your god you should be put to death if you curse at your parents. Do you think the founding fathers thought it was a good idea? Y____? N____? Exodus 21:17, Leviticus 20:9, Mark 7:10, Matthew 15:4, According to your god you should be put to death if you commit adultery. Do you think the founding fathers thought it was a good idea? Y____? N____? Leviticus 20:10. That's directly from your 10 commandments. Here are some other things that YOUR god thinks you should be put to death for. . . According to your god you should be put to death if you are a homosexual? Do you think the founding fathers thought it was a good idea? Y___? N____? Leviticus 20:13, According to your god you should be put to death if you do not worship him. Do you think the founding fathers thought it was a good idea? Y____? N____? Deuteronomy 13: 9-10 and Deuteronomy 17: 2-5.

Look kid, You can ignore evidence all you want. It really makes you look bad. Especially when they are simpleton videos showing the immorality of your gpod and christ and how they are truly impossible to follow because of how imoral they are. Gee, I just cannot imagine why you didn't vidie them. You like so so so many are afraid of a slap to the face of actual truth.

Now do yah want me to scold you with the NT which is far worse than the OT?
Christfollower

Con

My opponent is focusing on attacking me and my faith and not the subject for discussion.
I hope the voters will see through his attacks and behavior.
Debate Round No. 3
backwardseden

Pro

When you don't present any valid evidence, You thus invent excuses that don't pan out into anything that can be taken seriously and its not "your" faith to begin with, Which is something that you don't understand, Then you automatically lose in life and in here, Because really if you check, Who is going to vote in your favor other than those who attempt to play god by shifting invalid point their way which is what dsjpk5 to get his jollies does even though he's been disqualified from the voting process? No, You not only need but require a lot more than that. Sorry kid. Bye.
Christfollower

Con

I hope the voters will see through his attacks.
Debate Round No. 4
11 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Christfollower 3 years ago
Christfollower
@killshot
I am glad you asked.
In the constitution it states:
"If any Bill shall not be returned by the President within ten Days (Sundays excepted) after it shall have been presented to him, The Same shall be a Law, "
That shows that they had respect for Sundays, The day only Christians/Jews call the Sabbath.
Posted by killshot 3 years ago
killshot
@christfollower - Can you demonstrate that the morals you are referring to are only a derivative of Christian doctrine? Separation of church and state was a paraphrase invoking the 1st amendment and other political views held by the founding fathers at the time when they were advocating to keep religion out of politics. I wasn't referring to a literal phrase in founding documents, Rather an encapsulating political view. My point was this country was founded on the principle that religion and politics are decoupled, And the invocations of the word "God" in founding documents were not in reference to a particular entity.
Posted by Christfollower 3 years ago
Christfollower
@killshot I am going to clarify my statements. You can still found a country using Christian morals without being a Christian. This does not mean that the government is endorsing a religion. The first amendment says Congress shall not make a law restricting or forcing a religion. Separation of church and state is not mentioned in any founding documents regarding the creation of this country.
Posted by andymcstab 3 years ago
andymcstab
Ofcourse a nation who'se population was 99. 9% Christian upon its founding, Agreed upon laws and doctrines consistent with those of Christianity. As such, Even though not explicitly, Ofcourse America was founded on Christian morals. Even the idea that everyone should be free to believe what they like, Could be said to come from Christian morals.
Posted by killshot 3 years ago
killshot
Sorry @christfollower, But you're wrong. It was definitely not founded on Christianity, And certainly not Christian morals. Several of the founding fathers were deists, Not even theists and the US was formed to evade the overreaching politics of the Catholic authority - hence, Separation of church and state. The God/Creator stuff in the declaration and other documents was masonry verbiage that was used to encapsulate any deist/theist God(s), Without specifying any directly. Belief in a God, Even an abstract God at the deist level, Was a requirement of freemasonry, Which most of the founding fathers were. This was a common requirement among similar elusive organizations at the time. There is no reference anywhere to a specific religious doctrine, And our US laws are not dictated by a religious authority, Even though religious figures often bleed their beliefs into their politics.
Posted by DeletedUser 3 years ago
DeletedUser
now* -not
Posted by DeletedUser 3 years ago
DeletedUser
not now*
Posted by DeletedUser 3 years ago
DeletedUser
But thats not, Thats not in the past, The past is over
Posted by backwardseden 3 years ago
backwardseden
@vi_spex - Because christianity is corrupt, Bankrupt and immoral. If this country were to follow it, 3/4's of this country's population would be dead, At least.
Posted by EverlastingMoment 3 years ago
EverlastingMoment
This is a truism. It's in any case been indoctrinated in the US way of life that the Church and State must remain separate.
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by omar2345 3 years ago
omar2345
backwardsedenChristfollowerTied
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Total points awarded:10 
Reasons for voting decision: Saying 2 lines for 2 Rounds is poor conduct.
Vote Placed by dsjpk5 3 years ago
dsjpk5
backwardsedenChristfollowerTied
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Total points awarded:01 
Reasons for voting decision: Saying"Rather than clinging to your happy helmet all dressed in cow chirp band aids you would have " is poor conduct.

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