The Instigator
Leaning
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
That1User
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

In pursuit of immortality

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/30/2018 Category: Philosophy
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,402 times Debate No: 119664
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (20)
Votes (0)

 

Leaning

Pro

I would prefer to debate someone who does not believe in any afterlife, Since the existence of an afterlife would make this debate pointless in the fashion I intend. And would turn this into a debate about the existence of said afterlife rather than the debate that I want.

So hey, What I'd like this debate to be about is the pursuit of being alive more than other pursuits so to speak. I'm also positing that immortality in the form of stopping cancer and aging is possible to discover in the future. It does not matter whether this is mind uploading, A serum, Cryogenics or what. There are many variations of immortality. If you have any clarifications you would like to make before accepting or making your own argument, Feel free to ask.

If you accept this debate you accept debating with the "spirit" of what I intend by this argument. Voters are free to vote however they like without having to make some intricate argument to justify their vote, Although I would appreciate it if they are good sports and honest about it.
That1User

Con

In his previous debate, Pro argued immortality should be pursued over any other value
( https://www. Debate. Org/debates/Immortality-more-than-any-other-value/1/ )
Since the last debate has similar wording to this one, I will be refuting the claim that immortality should be pursued over any other value

In mortal life, The way life is currently, There are people who want to do die. Life is already a nightmare for them, One of torment and anguish, For them, Immortality is a fate worse than death. Since immortality can create boundless suffering for many, It should not be regarded as the highest value.

Instead of pursuing life for life's sake, Tormenting those who fear life, We should seek the alleviation of unneeded suffering as the highest value, Where we can achieve universal happiness, At least a state of contentment where everyone is okay and not living in perpetual torment. The highest value we should seek as a species is love, Not immortality. We should seek to make the quality of life improve for everyone overall over simply extending life indefinitely.
Debate Round No. 1
Leaning

Pro

I'd like to thank my opponent for accepting this debate. Based on their past records, This could be interesting for me.

On suicide:

Indeed there are people in life who are suicidal, Who the moment of life 'seems unbearable. However what is that but a human malfunctioning or experiencing error in function?

By this let me explain with a question. There is a man for whom you feel friendship for, Whom you would want to go through life correctly and in the best of ways. He comes to you one day asking for a knife
"That1User, I have grown weary of life. My house has been burned down by bandits. . . While my family was in it! They have stolen all my crops and goods. My body is burned from the sun and the soles of my feet torn from walking. Will you not give me a knife, That I might end my life? "

Would you give him a knife? Possibly you would, I'm banking my arguement that you wouldn't. A person who cared for their friend, My hope would be. That they take care of them, Help their body heal, Find the values in life that still remain to them.
Perhaps you will argue that this is entirely selfish, And not what is best for the person. Perhaps you actually think it best they kill themselves. That their death would deny you of your relationship with them. A possible line of thought. But one I think turned away from the truth.

That even in miserable circumstance, A person is able to exert their own will. To find or create meaning in life and reason to live.

Suicide may be an existence in humanity. But one could hardly call it the action of a human in the prime existence of function and life. There is a reason that it is fought in mental health, In philosophy, And in our hearts.

On existence:

Even with infinity, A person can still count which misfortune they are currently upon as they count upward. More so, With infinity is chance, Opportunity for change. 1000 flips of a coin may all land upon a losing side for a man. But so long as he has another chance, He has another chance. A chance for life to be improved and with knowledge of the past, Only more skillfully mitigating loss and reaping success.

One cannot experience love if one does not exist. One cannot even find meaning, Purpose, Or significance if they do not exist. A person can only 'be, If they exist, While they exist.

Only existence can bring meaning to a person. For every connotation that may exist for a person, Can only be, When someone is able to say "I am. " And still that meaning exists more than for he who is a braindead in a hospital, A rock, Or a dog.

On survival:

When the chips are down, Mans nature shines better. In strife, Struggle, And uncertainty, Do we let bare our teeth. Snarl against indomitable odds and forces to exert our own being. Whether as a community of Britain's in the second war, Upper lips stiff and hearts steeled as shards of iron burst in their cities.

Or as an island of boys, Each filled with self love and desperation. Each determined to live themselves before the game is up, And everything is lost, If existence too, Is lost.
That1User

Con

That1User forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 2
Leaning

Pro

Since circumstance or my opponent has deemed I should have an extra round, I'll not waste it, But rather spend it, Sharpening and clarifying the arguments thus far.

So far
My opponent has argued that there are people in life who find it a burden heavier than they can bear.

While there have been cultures and societies in which suicide was endorsed or looked upon as fair, I assert this is hardly a common held view of cultures throughout history, Much less now. The strongest contender I can imagine at the present moment would be Euthanasia. But I shall cast that argument aside!

Euthanasia I say, Is an argument concerning how one has a right to receive their death. Not an argument that entails in any which way immortality and life. Perhaps we might have another argument on whether one ought cling to existence to ones last breath, Even "To the pain. " However 'This argument I however say, Is about immortality. When has a feeding tube or a mechanical ventilator ever been called immortality?

Immortality say I, Is the removal of this material worlds tyranny upon us. That we should have to die due to objects void of purpose or meaning? Unbearable! That we have no choice but to age, Be infected by virus, Lose our mind to dementia? Intolerable! In immortality man yearns to escape from all these soulless abominations that press upon him in inescapable time. But do you know what makes these facts of life unbearable and intolerable to me? Given the clear reality of their existence, Our bearing, And tolerating them? That I think now, We might be reaching an epoch of human existence in when we might have a say!

Other souls, People and persons. Situations and circumstances wrought in meanings by reasons, By purpose and intention? . . . These deaths would still be, After one has conquered first the matter of mundane physicality and. . . Matter. A higher plane of reality to ascend next.

Alleviation of life's suffering? Yes, I suppose death would remove a miserable persons worries and concerns. But so would it remove everything else. Death and nonexistence itself is not good or bad, But simply null. But! A person alive I say, Is still. 1 of something even if in despair. But you would take away even that scrap of life from them. That scrap, That seed that existence possessing an infinitely endurable quality and potential! While. It. Exists.

Rage I Say! Rage against the dying of the life! Fight while even a spark still exists! Breath flame from ember and coal! Twist bending bodily with effort and steeling purpose in our minds! Fight while nails rip from your fingers! Your teeth crack! And bone breaks! Till the worlds ending, Amongst Ragnarok itself! To be human! To struggle! To exist.

Still I say the mind exists firstmost to exist. That suicide though encounterable, Is unnatural. That ones will might be exerted. That existence affirms itself by don't of itself.

I'm going to put down my sources and inspirations now rather than round 5 lest someone thinks I'm trying to steal concepts to pass off as my own.

Princess Bride 1987
Do not go gentle into that good night - Poem by Dylan Thomas
The Sea Wolf by Jack Londen
The Specter of the Absurd: Sources and Criticisms of Modern Nihilism by Donald A. Crosby
The Bible
Plato the Republic
Lord of the Flies by William Golding
WW2
The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King 2003
Attack on Titan

It would have been fun to just do a poem this round. But, I felt something in the moment, And lest I lost it, Developed it.
That1User

Con

Why is immortality to be valued above all else?
Pro gives two reasons:
1) "Opportunity for change"
2) Triumph through struggle "When the chips are down, Mans nature shines better"

The first reason makes sense, With an unending life, There are limitless choices for change, To make one's life better. While this makes reason makes sense, It gives the argument that immortality is to be valued because it gives opportunity to improve one's life. Immortality is a tool for improvement, Not valueable for its own sake in this case. For a value to be a value, Especially a value that supercedes all other values, It must be desirable for its own end, For its own sake, Not to have a basis in another value. In this case, The primary value is the oppturnity to change life for the better, Rather than immortality itself.

The second reason runs into the same problem as the first, Finding triumph in and through struggle is the basis for immortality's value. I'm arguing that, Above all else, Surviving and becoming stronger through struggle is the greatest human value, Even moreso than immortality. Throughout life there is struggle, That is invetiable, And it is how struggle is managed and overcomed that determines the quality of life.

Too many people have given up, Have been broken and defeated by life to continue their struggle. More important than living forever is to live in the present, To find ways to love and care for others and for ourselves, To release an inner strength and find that life is worth living, That life is worth the struggle. If one does not find meaning in life, Then there is no point in living in forever. One must find the desire to live first for immortality to be a value. This is why triumphing through struggle and finding purpose in life are greater values than immortality, Because one needs to learn how to gain strength through struggle and find meaning in life for physical eternal life to be a value.


Why immortality should not be valued over all else:
For a value to be pursued over all other values, It needs to be a universial human value
Many people want to die
For immortality to be achieved, People can't die
Since people want die and people can't die if immortal, Immortality is not a universial human value
Therefore, Immortality should not be valued over all else
Immortality should only be a value for those who desire immortality, Even some people who desire to live do not desire to live forever, They want to live a full life and life to have a natural end

Implications of immortality:
Death is the ultimate motivator, Some are motivated by these reasons,
"Since I'm gonna die anyways, I might as well live while I can"
"I need to do all I can before I die"
Since life is finite, It gives motivation for humans to achieve with the time we have left, Remove death and the motivation to achieve everything we can before dying is removed. This major removal of motivation can result in stagnation and depression, Some even finding solace in eventual death and avoiding suicide because life will end anyways.

Immortality should not be valued over all other values for many reasons:
Not everyone wants to live forever
Death is a primary motivator for human advancement
Immortality only has value as a means to the ends of improvement and triumphing through struggle
Learning how to achieve and overcome through struggle is paramount throughout all of human existence, To both present mortals and potential future immortals.


Debate Round No. 3
Leaning

Pro

Now to be fair I did not explicitly state
that this immortality made it impossible for a person to kill themself, Or impossible for people to kill each other. In round 1 I argued that "The pursuit of being alive" ought to be valued more than other pursuits so to speak. The only forms of immortality I suggested in round 1 were in the form of stopping cancer and aging. I also offered clarifications in the comments if anyone did not feel the debate was explained enough.

I offer "Opportunity for change" as a reason why people should not give in to despair, Rather than a reason for life itself. The reason for life itself is. . . Itself I assert. Sure there are qualities, Reasons, And meanings we find in the world outside and inside of ourselves, But we cannot access that if we are dead.

It is not so much triumph through struggle, As it is when a person has the realization that one is facing indomitable odds that scream for his death. And how people steel their will to avoid it, Fight it. "How people swing with both fists as they writhe in the mud! "

Take the Andes plane of soccer players for example. When it came down to it, The negative moral aspects of cannibalism weighed less heavy than their lives. That! Is what it means to be human. To live no matter the cost, That our lives mean more.

No matter the meaning you and I find in life, It shall all be cast to the void when aged death comes for us, Sickle swinging upon his bony shoulder. Before meaning, A human seeks first to exist. How else could he assert meaning into himself and the world?

Life. . . Life IS the universal value of humans of individuals of persons. Were I to grip some guy by the throat. Struggle, Fear, A desire to live would emerge. His legs kicking, His arms flailing. In all but the worst cases of humans, As I said, Dysfunctional and malfunctioning.

Death is 'a motivator, But the ultimate? Do you really claim that all art, Effort, Enjoyment, And tasting of life is done simply because we are going to die? Hell, We did all that before we even knew the concept of death.

I say. . . That all meaning that humans find is existentially related. Even values people have in supposed afterlife's are concepts that can only be found by 'existing. A non existent mind can hardly think of anything. Thus for an individuals meaning to be kept, It can only do so while he exists. When he ceases to exists, All the concepts in his mind cease to exist.
Of course one might argue that the people around him keep his memory and actions in their hearts. But those are their hearts, Not his! . He cannot feel satisfaction about that if he is dead! Only by living does meaning exist!

Even actions, Genes, And creations are only a man's light thrown a brief distance to dimly flicker before blackness consumes it

A final argument before I summarize. That if immortality 'was perceived as achievable, Twould be suicide to not seize upon it. As a man not running to the storm cellar as he beholds a tornado whirling upon him with doom and gloom.

Now, To summarize. . . Nah, I'm good, Already said it all above.

I'll abstain from making any remarks but thanks and a polls link in round 5, That we might be evened up.

https://en. Wikipedia. Org/wiki/Uruguayan_Air_Force_Flight_571
http://etc. Usf. Edu. . .
The Devils Carnival After the Fall
That1User

Con

"Now to be fair I did not explicitly state
that this immortality made it impossible for a person to kill themself, Or impossible for people to kill each other. "

Immortality, Which Pro argues for, By definition, Invalidates the ability for a person to be killed by themselves or another


"In round 1 I argued that "The pursuit of being alive" ought to be valued more than other pursuits so to speak"
Why should being alive for the sole purpose of being alive ought to be valued above all else? A purpose for life is far more vital to seek than to survive for survival's sake because it is what motivates us to live and makes life worth living, Not life for life's sake.
Debate Round No. 4
Leaning

Pro

Hey, Thanks for the debate. Hey everybody else as well, Check out a poll.
https://www. Debate. Org/polls/most-viable-path-to-immortality
That1User

Con

That1User forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 5
20 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Leaning 2 years ago
Leaning
I agree I have worded much of the debate in a confusing way. I'd say it's because the concept is a bit fuzzy in my head, And I was hoping that being forced to wrangle it out in a debate format would allow a bit of clarity to it.

I don't currently believe in 'complete immortality. Something. . I suspect is always going to kill you. But, Immortality is often enough seen as stopping the aging process and disease (I think).

The argument against immortality. . I suppose could be to argue it is not currently possible. Another one would be to argue that it is not desirable. To me, I guess I just mixed living forever and trying to live forever together. They seem similar enough to me. . . Are they not?
Posted by That1User 2 years ago
That1User
My main question is why did you title the debate "In pursuit of immortality" and argue for immortality while also arguing for the pursuit of being alive above all other pursuits. These are two distinct things, So why not argue for one and use the other as supporting evidence to build your case?
Posted by That1User 2 years ago
That1User
Feel like I've fundamentally misunderstood your argument, The way you word things is confusing at times
Posted by Leaning 2 years ago
Leaning
Hey, No worries. Hakuna Matata, And all that.
Posted by That1User 2 years ago
That1User
Apologies for the forfeit, Hope this makes up for it
Posted by Leaning 2 years ago
Leaning
Round 3 That existence affirms itself by dint of itself. Dint, Not don't. Still wrong probably, But I did not mean the word don't.
Posted by Leaning 2 years ago
Leaning
Oh! What a pleasant surprise. I had thought you had missed your time slot. Last 10 minutes I was thinking of a poem to pass the time. But no, An argument is what I need.
Posted by omar2345 2 years ago
omar2345
@Leaning

I guess it has to be 3D.
Or maybe it can be based on colour.
Green is on.
Red is off.
In the middle you can have DDO.
On top of green light you can have green text: online when you are online.
Below red light you can have red text: offline when you are offline.
If you are not online it can be greyed out or white. Vice versa.
Posted by Leaning 2 years ago
Leaning
@omar2345
Hmm, Not bad. I might try it.
Posted by omar2345 2 years ago
omar2345
@Leaning

Why not have a light switch?
In the light switch you would have the initials DDO.
And when you are online the light switch would be on.
When you are not available you have the light switch off.
No votes have been placed for this debate.

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