The Instigator
Speedrace
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
killshot
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points

Is Christianity Disadvantageous To An Individual?

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 3/26/2019 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,466 times Debate No: 121011
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (80)
Votes (0)

 

Speedrace

Con

I will be arguing that Christianity is not disadvantageous to an individual. This is specifically talking about the individual who goes into Christianity, Not the effect on society on a whole. The Christianity I am speaking about is the one based on the Bible (mainly the New Testament). Please don't make new rules for Christianity out of thin air, Do your best to follow the main interpretation of it (that doesn't mean Catholicism, The main interpretation of Christianity as a whole).

The burden of proof is on both of us, But the claim is your job, I will just be refuting your claims.

Please start your argument in the next round.


Have fun! :)
killshot

Pro

@speed thanks for the challenge!

John 10:30 - I and my father are one.
Matthew 4:4 - But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, But by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
Matthew 5:21 - Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment.
Matthew 5:23 - Again, Ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, But shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths

This debate is somewhat unfair from my position considering I am not allowed to use the old testament, Extra biblical sources or the largest denomination of Christianity (Catholicism). You've carefully defined the parameters to suit your position, But I will give it a try in good sport.

Above are a few examples that shows Jesus did not replace the old testament; the books of the new testament are a supplement to the old. Also, The old testament is where original sin comes from, And without it, Christianity loses its foundations. I don't think it's fair to argue that the old testament is irrelevant or "ignorable" just because you do not want to own up to some of the nonsense in it haha

That being said, I'll focus my argument solely on the new testament, As requested.

The new testament introduces the concept of Hell, Which is arguably the vilest concept in Christian doctrine. It is a Zoroastrianism concept that was not originally part of 1st temple Judaism, But eventually it made its way into the doctrines after the Persian conquests.

Christians will dance around this subject, But the Bible is explicit when it says the only way to heaven is through belief. Murderers, Rapists and other dangerous individuals can live a life of sin, Yet still escape the clutches of hell simply by believing; meanwhile, Babies or benevolent non-believers don't pass go, They just go directly to hell.

If your religion is true, This is majorly disadvantageous to the non-believersfor obvious reasons.

Almost all Christians believe their God to be omniscient and omnipotent. Free will and omniscience cannot logically coexist. If the Christian God is omniscient, Then some individuals are basically living here void of choices with a predestined ticket to Hell. The concept of living in a celestial dictatorship, Void of choices, With the consequences of eternal torture is entirely immoral. If your religion is true, This is majorly disadvantageous to the people with the unfortunate destinies.

In addition to this, It causes obvious segregation issues between believers and non-believers. This can manifest in society or family structures and cause disadvantageous environments for participants.

Believing in Christianity is delusional, Because it requires the individual to believe in things, Such as magic, That do not align with reality. This is can be majorly disadvantageous to people's careers and education, Depending on their career or education path. For example, Someone who believes magic is real will likely not be accepted for a position at NASA or any other high-ranking science organization.

I look forward to your rebuttals :)

Debate Round No. 1
Speedrace

Con

First of all, I apologize for not being clear. I never said you couldn't use the Old Testament or extra-biblical sources, Haha, I was simply saying that the Christianity that we'll be talking about will be based in the New Testament :)

The not basing it in Catholicism is true though.

I mainly said that because I didn't want this debate to spiral into one about sin and what not.

"Christians will dance around this subject, But the Bible is explicit when it says the only way to heaven is through belief. "

This is true.

"Murderers, Rapists and other dangerous individuals can live a life of sin, Yet still escape the clutches of hell simply by believing"

This is not true, Read Hebrews 10:16: "For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, There no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, "

"Babies or benevolent non-believers don't pass go, They just go directly to hell. "

Not sure where you got the one about babies, And the one about non-believers isn't a relevant disadvantage.

"If your religion is true, This is majorly disadvantageous to the non-believersfor obvious reasons. "

Not sure if I wasn't clear here either, But I'm specifically talking about the believers and the effects on them, Effects on society or non-believers is irrelevant.

"Almost all Christians believe their God to be omniscient and omnipotent. Free will and omniscience cannot logically coexist. "

Yes, They can. Let's just say that for one second, I became omnipotent, And afterwards, The only thing that I remembered was exactly what you would say in response to this argument. Does that mean I forced you to write those words? No, I simply knew beforehand.

"If the Christian God is omniscient, Then some individuals are basically living here void of choices with a predestined ticket to Hell. The concept of living in a celestial dictatorship, Void of choices, With the consequences of eternal torture is entirely immoral. "

Again, This is only if free will and omniscience are mutually exclusive, Which they are not. Besides that, This is not a repercussion for the believers themselves.

"If your religion is true, This is majorly disadvantageous to the people with the unfortunate destinies. "

Again, This is not a negative effect for believers.

"In addition to this, It causes obvious segregation issues between believers and non-believers. This can manifest in society or family structures and cause disadvantageous environments for participants. "

How is segregation caused by Christianity? The Bible tells us to love everyone.

"Believing in Christianity is delusional, Because it requires the individual to believe in things, Such as magic, That do not align with reality. "

You haven't proved this, But I'll allow it for the sake of the argument.

"This is can be majorly disadvantageous to people's careers and education, Depending on their career or education path. For example, Someone who believes magic is real will likely not be accepted for a position at NASA or any other high-ranking science organization. "

This is not true, Because it is illegal to ask for one's religion in an interview. In fact, There are quite a few Christians working at NASA. Did you know that up until about 2001, NASA would pray every morning? Christianity still persists in the organization to this day.

Over to you! :)
killshot

Pro

Well if we're arguing Christianity ONLY from a new testament position, That by definition would exclude the old testament. Anything I would propose from the old testament would be dismissible.

This is not true, Read Hebrews 10:16: "For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, There no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, "

Are you saying that a murderer/rapist cannot repent and go to heaven? Have you forgotten about the apostle Paul and his background? Are you saying Paul is not in heaven?

Not sure where you got the one about babies, And the one about non-believers isn't a relevant disadvantage.

Babies and non-believers (including apostates) go to Hell because they lack the only criteria to go to heaven - belief. I included non-believers here because these could be people who were never exposed to Christianity. They are innocents who will suffer for eternity because they were born in the wrong area.

How is segregation caused by Christianity? The Bible tells us to love everyone.

One example could be a Christian family that disowns their child because they are gay or atheist or _fill in the blank_. This is a very common thing, Especially among fundamentalists.

You haven't proved this, But I'll allow it for the sake of the argument.

I will now prove Christians believe in magic - miracles. I will now prove miracles are delusional.

delusional: characterized by or holding idiosyncratic beliefs or impressions that are contradicted by reality or rational argument, Typically as a symptom of mental disorder.

This is not true, Because it is illegal to ask for one's religion in an interview. In fact, There are quite a few Christians working at NASA. Did you know that up until about 2001, NASA would pray every morning? Christianity still persists in the organization to this day.

It is NOT illegal to ask for one’s knowledge on a subject during an interview. As soon as they say the universe is 6 thousand years old, Radio dating doesn't work, Evolution is wrong and magic is real - they are done.

----------

I intentionally saved the omniscience/free will thing for last, Because it will take the most time to rebut.

If the future is a compounded result of free will based decisions, Then it’s logically impossible to know the future because the future has not been defined yet.

Let’s assume Bob has two back to back decisions to make between the choices A or B.

This results in 4 possible outcomes:

AA, AB, BB, BA

It’s impossible to know what the outcome will be until Bob has made the two decisions. If you know that Bob will choose AB, Then he was destined to make that choice and it was not a result of free will.

Debate Round No. 2
Speedrace

Con

"Well if we're arguing Christianity ONLY from a new testament position, That by definition would exclude the old testament. Anything I would propose from the old testament would be dismissible. "

If you want to exclude evidence, Be my guest lol, I tried to give it to you. Again, I was simply saying that the fundamentals of Christianity, Such as the way to salvation, Must be based in the New Testament. Then again, I'm not complaining if you don't use the Old Testament :)

"Are you saying that a murderer/rapist cannot repent and go to heaven? Have you forgotten about the apostle Paul and his background? Are you saying Paul is not in heaven? "

This was not what I was saying. Your original response basically implied that they had this mindset: "I can get saved? Ok, I'm gonna keep murdering people until the very last minute, And then I'll accept Jesus! " That's what I was saying was not true, Not that murderers/rapists can't repent. You can't know about Jesus and his salvation and keep sinning, And then expect to get his grace at the last minute.

"Babies and non-believers (including apostates) go to Hell because they lack the only criteria to go to heaven - belief. "

No, Because the Bible teaches about an age of accountability. You can read of this in passages such as Isaiah 7:15-16.

"I included non-believers here because these could be people who were never exposed to Christianity. "

This is false. Everyone is exposed to Christianity (at leats those that come of age). In Romans 1:20, The Bible says "For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities – his eternal power and divine nature – have been clearly seen, Being understood from what has been made, So that men are without excuse. " Essentially, God reveals himself in multiple ways, Not just by word-of-mouth.

"They are innocents who will suffer for eternity because they were born in the wrong area. "

One, I already explained why this is false. Two, This is not a disadvantage for the people who are believing Christianity.

"One example could be a Christian family that disowns their child because they are gay or atheist or _fill in the blank_. This is a very common thing, Especially among fundamentalists. "

Nowhere in the Bible does it say to disown gay people or atheists, Meaning that if someone does, It is because of their own presuppositions.

"It is NOT illegal to ask for one’s knowledge on a subject during an interview. As soon as they say the universe is 6 thousand years old, Radio dating doesn't work, Evolution is wrong and magic is real - they are done. "

All of those are beliefs, and are illegal interview questions. Also, None of those apply to NASA jobs (that I can think of). Since when will an engineer need to know the age of the universe? And seriously, I'm pretty sure no one at NASA deals with evolution regularly. Also, Christians don't believe in macroevolution, Microevolution is obviously true.

"

If the future is a compounded result of free will based decisions, Then it’s logically impossible to know the future because the future has not been defined yet.

Let’s assume Bob has two back to back decisions to make between the choices A or B.

This results in 4 possible outcomes:

AA, AB, BB, BA

It’s impossible to know what the outcome will be until Bob has made the two decisions. If you know that Bob will choose AB, Then he was destined to make that choice and it was not a result of free will. "

So you're essentially saying that Bob is a random number generator. That's not how it works. For something to be predestined, It has to be CAUSED beforehand. If God is omniscient, He simply knows what happens beforehand. Think of it this way: you say it's impossible for anyone to know the outcome until Bob has made the two decisions, So God simply exists in the future where all decisions have already been made. He transcends time.

And even if free will didn't exist, How is that a disadvantage to believers?

killshot

Pro

This was not what I was saying. Your original response basically implied that they had this mindset: "I can get saved? Ok, I'm gonna keep murdering people until the very last minute, And then I'll accept Jesus! " That's what I was saying was not true, Not that murderers/rapists can't repent. You can't know about Jesus and his salvation and keep sinning, And then expect to get his grace at the last minute.

So, A rapist/murderer cannot repent, Fall back into sin, And repent again? One repent is all you get?

No, Because the Bible teaches about an age of accountability. You can read of this in passages such as Isaiah 7:15-16.

This verse says nothing about getting into heaven. You are drawing a conclusion that you want from it, But it doesn't say it.

This is false. Everyone is exposed to Christianity (at leats those that come of age). In Romans 1:20, The Bible says "For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities – his eternal power and divine nature – have been clearly seen, Being understood from what has been made, So that men are without excuse. " Essentially, God reveals himself in multiple ways, Not just by word-of-mouth.

So, Muslims, Hindus and other people who were born/indoctrinated into their faith had an equal shot at it? What about the tribes on Sentinel Island? What about all the people who died before Christianity's inception?

One, I already explained why this is false. Two, This is not a disadvantage for the people who are believing Christianity.

Fair enough.

Nowhere in the Bible does it say to disown gay people or atheists, Meaning that if someone does, It is because of their own presuppositions.

I never asserted it was instructed in the Bible; nonetheless, I personally know countless examples of it.

All of those are beliefs, And are illegal interview questions. Also, None of those apply to NASA jobs (that I can think of). Since when will an engineer need to know the age of the universe? And seriously, I'm pretty sure no one at NASA deals with evolution regularly. Also, Christians don't believe in macroevolution, Microevolution is obviously true.

I said NASA and other science organizations; I was only using NASA as an ad hoc example. They will be asking the metaphorical engineer loads of questions that he/she will repeatedly fail with embarrassment, Because he/she's using incorrect math and physics. If someone believes the universe is 6k years old, All of science breaks down (speed of light, Radioactive decay, Relativity, Etc), And all the existing models used in science need to be recalibrated. This is why every Christian in the science field has to put their lab coat on at the door and sidebar their religious nonsense. That engineer would be incapable of launching a rocket or doing anything because the physics he/she would be using would not align with reality. For example, The speed of radioactive decay that we witness now (that matches up with other areas of science) would have to be multiplied by (14 billion/6k) in order to make it work in a 6k model.

Debate Round No. 3
Speedrace

Con

"So, A rapist/murderer cannot repent, Fall back into sin, And repent again? One repent is all you get? "

Sinning and Christianity are not mutually exclusive. Christians sin all the time, But it is a matter of working not to. If a murderer becomes a Christian and then keeps killing because they think that they'll still go to heaven, They won't. If they are actively working not to anymore, Then they can truly receive the grace of God.

"This verse says nothing about getting into heaven. You are drawing a conclusion that you want from it, But it doesn't say it. "

It says that there is a point at which humans don't know the difference between wrong and right, Which means that their sin is not their fault. The Bible describes animals as innocent because they don't know right from wrong either.

"So, Muslims, Hindus and other people who were born/indoctrinated into their faith had an equal shot at it? "

Yes.

"What about the tribes on Sentinel Island? "

Yes. There are reports of Jesus appearing to people in dreams in India, So why couldn't that happen on that island? Or God could simply reveal himself through the awesomeness of nature itself.

"What about all the people who died before Christianity's inception? "

They were under a different covenant, But belief and faith in God was still the main key point.

"I never asserted it was instructed in the Bible; nonetheless, I personally know countless examples of it. "

As do I, But it is irrelevant to this debate unless it pertains to Christianity.

"They will be asking the metaphorical engineer loads of questions that he/she will repeatedly fail with embarrassment, Because he/she's using incorrect math and physics. If someone believes the universe is 6k years old, All of science breaks down (speed of light, Radioactive decay, Relativity, Etc), And all the existing models used in science need to be recalibrated. "

Why? Like for the speed of light, I'm assuming that you'd say that the light wouldn't have reached us by now, But it's obvious that God would have made it reach us at the beginning of creation. Why would he create stars if we could never see them?

"This is why every Christian in the science field has to put their lab coat on at the door and sidebar their religious nonsense. That engineer would be incapable of launching a rocket or doing anything because the physics he/she would be using would not align with reality. "

I've never met a Christian whose view of physics didn't align with literally everybody else, Including myself. Please explain what you mean more. The only thing I've ever heard of being in conflict with Christianity is macroevolution.

"For example, The speed of radioactive decay that we witness now (that matches up with other areas of science) would have to be multiplied by (14 billion/6k) in order to make it work in a 6k model. "

Could you explain why? Please give specific examples of why it wouldn't work (and for the others if you want to keep them).
killshot

Pro

I feel that I have made my points with the other arguments, So I would like to try one more point in the last round.

1) Biblical Christian morals are disadvantageous to everyone, Including the Christian who holds them; this is why my country (US) is based on secular morals instead. For example, Stoning disobedient children, Rape apology, Sanctioning of slavery, Sanctioning of murder, Etc. In Christian morality, ANYTHING God commands is an absolute moral - even murder at times. Jesus never revoked those moral commandments, Or corrected them; in fact, He stated they should all be inforced (Matthew 5:17).

As do I, But it is irrelevant to this debate unless it pertains to Christianity.

Well it does pertain to Christianity. Just because it pertains to other religions also, That does not negate it's presence in Christianity.

I've never met a Christian whose view of physics didn't align with literally everybody else, Including myself. Please explain what you mean more. The only thing I've ever heard of being in conflict with Christianity is macroevolution.

6k year old earth. That was easy haha

Could you explain why? Please give specific examples of why it wouldn't work (and for the others if you want to keep them).

Sure, I'll keep the explanations extremely simple.

Radiometric dating: Because we observe A decay at B, The universe must be C.

Speed of Light: Because the speed of light in a vacuum is always X, Light can be used to measure distance. Because we see light from B distance, It had to have traveled for C years.

We have ancient civilizations that go back further than 6k years.

Science uses observations to create models. Those models make testable/repeatable predictions that can be measured over and over again. NO physics formulas use creationism math/models to make predictions, Because they don't work. The reason we have technology now is directly due to scientific observations and physics (laws and models describing reality - 14-billion-year-old universe).

Anyone who disagrees with this, Like creationists, Cannot be taken seriously in the science domain. They would have to present a better, More reliable prediction model than we have.


Debate Round No. 4
Speedrace

Con

"I feel that I have made my points with the other arguments, So I would like to try one more point in the last round. "

If you call a point that has been refuted multiple times made, Then sure.

"1) Biblical Christian morals are disadvantageous to everyone, Including the Christian who holds them; this is why my country (US) is based on secular morals instead. "

The cash in my drawer with the words "In God We Trust" says otherwise.

"For example, Stoning disobedient children, Rape apology, Sanctioning of slavery, Sanctioning of murder, Etc. In Christian morality, ANYTHING God commands is an absolute moral - even murder at times. "

God never commanded any of those things, They were simply suggestions and guidelines for those times, And atheists have twisted them to mean something outside of its context. And the rape apology one is completely taken out of context (by you) and incorrect.

"Jesus never revoked those moral commandments, Or corrected them; in fact, He stated they should all be inforced (Matthew 5:17). "

First of all, None of those were commandments. Second, I never said that he invalidated the Old Testament, So stop trying to turn that around on me. I gave you multiple chances to use the Old Testament and you decided not to. Third, We were given a new law in the New Testament in Galatians 5:14: "For all the law is fulfilled in one word, Even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. "

"6k year old earth. That was easy haha"

And that lol

"Radiometric dating: Because we observe A decay at B, The universe must be C.

Speed of Light: Because the speed of light in a vacuum is always X, Light can be used to measure distance. Because we see light from B distance, It had to have traveled for C years. "

When I asked you to explain, I meant explain how it is conflicting to Christianity, But I guess it's too late now. . .

"We have ancient civilizations that go back further than 6k years. "

Like?

"Science uses observations to create models. Those models make testable/repeatable predictions that can be measured over and over again. "

NO physics formulas use creationism math/models to make predictions, Because they don't work. "

That's because there's no such thing as creationism math/models because they're the same as the rest of the world.

"The reason we have technology now is directly due to scientific observations and physics (laws and models describing reality - 14-billion-year-old universe). Anyone who disagrees with this, Like creationists, Cannot be taken seriously in the science domain. They would have to present a better, More reliable prediction model than we have. "

Again, Creationists don't disagree with science or its models, Just macroevolution and the age of the universe.

All in all, You have not proven at all that Christianity is disadvantageous to an individual. Please vote Con.
killshot

Pro

The cash in my drawer with the words "In God We Trust" says otherwise.

Obviously, You don't know how/when/why those words were inscribed. Are you familiar with the separation of Church and State? This is a non sequitur because inscriptions on a coin have nothing to do with secular morals. Name me one US law that was instated strictly because of Christianity.


God never commanded any of those things, They were simply suggestions and guidelines for those times, And atheists have twisted them to mean something outside of its context. And the rape apology one is completely taken out of context (by you) and incorrect.

God is immoral. A moral God would have instructed his people NOT to do any of that stuff. He wouldn't "lay down guidelines relevant to the times". Rape is condoned in the Bible: Deuteronomy 22:28-29. If a man has sex with a woman who is not betrothed and he is caught, He must pay her father 50 shekels and then he must marry her. She is her father’s property, Then she is her rapist’s property. The line immediately before this refers to a man having sex with a woman and her crying for help. Why would she ever be crying for help unless it's rape? The context is pretty clear.


First of all, None of those were commandments. Second, I never said that he invalidated the Old Testament, So stop trying to turn that around on me. I gave you multiple chances to use the Old Testament and you decided not to. Third, We were given a new law in the New Testament in Galatians 5:14: "For all the law is fulfilled in one word, Even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. "

My point was, Jesus did not invalidate the old testament. Therefore, All those "Christian morals" have to be carried over. Those are OBVIOUSLY disadvantageous to everyone, Including Christians.


When I asked you to explain, I meant explain how it is conflicting to Christianity, But I guess it's too late now.

I did explain it. I showed the universe is X years old. This contradicts the 6k year old earth.

Re- ancient civilizations: Aborigines go back approx 50-75k years.


That's because there's no such thing as creationism math/models because they're the same as the rest of the world.

This is where you are totally wrong, And I think this should be our next debate subject.


Again, Creationists don't disagree with science or its models, Just macroevolution and the age of the universe.

This sentence makes a claim, Then defeats it at the same time. It doesn't disagree with science or its models, Just almost all of science and its models.

All in all, You have not proven at all that Christianity is disadvantageous to an individual. Please vote Con.

I most certainly have proved it:

  • Its moral system is disadvantageous because it condones misogyny, Rape, Violence, Slavery and many other horrible atrocities.
  • It's negative impact on careers in science; to believe in religion, You have to relinquish your critical thinking faculties.

Thanks for the fun debate! I look forward to another (perhaps the one listed above? )

Vote Pro
😊

Debate Round No. 5
80 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Speedrace 3 years ago
Speedrace
@killshot

Kinda salty because you saved some claims until the end. . . But it's all good

Another fun debate :)

Go ahead and challenge me to the one you put in there, I'm kinda confused as what to title it
Posted by Chronosofwisdom 3 years ago
Chronosofwisdom
Holy s--t this has a lot of comments. . .
Posted by Chronosofwisdom 3 years ago
Chronosofwisdom
I would actually argue that Christianity would be beneficial to a person.
Posted by 21stCenturyIconoclast 3 years ago
21stCenturyIconoclast
Speedrace,

YOUR RUNAWAY QUOTE: "Welp, This is why I try not to argue in the comments :)"

No, You do not argue in the comments section because you have a hard enough time to do it in the debate section, Therefore, Why make a continued fool of yourself in the comments section relative to your primitive barbaric faith.
Posted by Speedrace 3 years ago
Speedrace
Welp, This is why I try not to argue in the comments :)
Posted by melcharaz 3 years ago
melcharaz
if there is no interest in wanting to know then there is no point in telling.
Posted by Speedrace 3 years ago
Speedrace
@melcharaz

Why don't you just explain it lol, You don't need their permission
Posted by melcharaz 3 years ago
melcharaz
God told them to not eat the fruit.

means*
Posted by melcharaz 3 years ago
melcharaz
won't answer the question until you wish to know the nature of God.
Also, You twisted the scripture to your mean. God told them to not the fruit, They ate the fruit. Therefore God fulfilled his word that they would die.
Posted by Speedrace 3 years ago
Speedrace
@killshot

Fun debate once again, Although this one was super short xD

Let me know if you wanna go at it again :D
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