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Is Christianity illogical?

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 6/27/2014 Category: Religion
Updated: 7 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,324 times Debate No: 58266
Debate Rounds (3)
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Logic- reasoning conducted or assessed according to strict principles of validity [Google definition]. In order for a thought to be logical, it must follow strict principles of validity. If any rule is broken, the thought becomes invalid, making it illogical.

The Law of Causality states that for every material effect there must be an adequate antecedent or simultaneous cause. Example: A large mass of water could be a probable cause for the Grand Canyon. A gopher would not be a plausible explanation for the Grand Canyon.

Genesis 1:1- "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

EFFECT: Creation of the heavens and the earth
This explanation for the creation of the universe does not break any rule of validity and obeys the Law of Causality, making this a logical explanation.

Who created God?
God- the perfect and all-powerful spirit or being that is worshipped especially by Christians, Jews, and Muslims as the one who created and rules the universe.[Merriam-Webster Dictionary]

The Law of Causality states that for every material effect there must be an adequate antecedent or simultaneous cause.
God, as seen in the definition, is not physical. Therefore, the Law of Causality does not apply.
The validity of the God influenced Bible can be proven in many ways:
1) Scientific foreknowledge:
-Biblical Sanitation: ""Whoever touches the dead body of any person shall be unclean seven days. 12 He shall cleanse himself with the water on the third day and on the seventh day, and so be clean. But if he does not cleanse himself on the third day and on the seventh day, he will not become clean (Numbers 19:11-12)."

Experiments on the relationship between germ and disease were conducted by Louis Pasteur between 1860 and 1864, and shortly after Pasteur released his Germ Theory of Disease.
In 1847, Ignaz Semmelweis discovered that washing hands before and after surgery would significantly lower the death rate (18% to 1%).

-Water Purification: Red heifer, hyssop, cedar wood, and scarlet (Num. 19).
The ashes of the Red heifer and cedar wood were to create lye soap, by pouring water through the ashes. Moses, astonishingly, instructs the Israelites to prepare the mixture in a diluted solution, because dye is a skin irritant when in high concentrations.

Cedar leaves are rich in Vitamin C, and have antiviral, antibacterial properties within.

By adding Scarlet (a.k.a Scarlet wool- Hebrews 9) the wool fibers would have given the concoction a result very similar to soap we have today.

- Circumcision: "He who is eight days old among you shall be circumcised. Every male throughout your generations, whether born in your house or bought with your money from any foreigner who is not of your offspring, 13 both he who is born in your house and he who is bought with your money, shall surely be circumcised. So shall my covenant be in your flesh an everlasting covenant. 14 Any uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin shall be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant." (Gen 17: 12-14)

Circumcision has been proven to reduce the incidence of tract infections, eliminate almost all chances of penile cancer. Prothrombin, on the 8th day is shown to be at the highest level, making it perfect for circumcision.

2) Prophecies

- Joshua 6:26
-Jeremiah 49:15-20
-2 Kings 2:3-11
-2 Chronicles 20
-1 Kings 13:2
-Zechariah 12:10
-Micah 5:2
-Daniel 9:25-26

Is Christianity illogical?


Thank you for the debate. This topic is always fun.

Most of my opponents arguments represent an argument from ignorance or violate Occam's Razor. I will provide a brief rebuttal in this round and a substantial rebuttal in the next, however I shall first make my case.

Christianity is predicated upon the actual existence of a god, and subsequently if my opponent can not make the existence of a god rational, christianity can not be rational.

Many say a negative claim can not be proven and in most regards they can't, however one can prove a negative claim if the converse is incoherent. I shall argue that God, as defined in Christianity is incoherent, like a square circle.

Semantic Incoherence: God in the Christian religion is defined as: Omniscient, omnipotent, omni-benevolence, immaterial, volitional.
These are mutual attributes.
Lets first examine free will (volitional) and omniscience.
A. If god is omniscient then he knows everything.
B.If he knows everything then he knows his own future.
C.If he absolutely knows his own future then he can not change it(because he would have known he would change it, thus being apart of his original plan).
D. Therefor god can not be omniscient and volitional.
God's actions are determined.

-Omnipresence and eternality/ infinite being:
It is also agreed that god is eternal and given god has omnipresence, it follows that god has been present everywhere forever. It is accepted that the universe has existed for thirteen point seven billion years, but given god is eternal, god existed prior to that. However it is also accepted that there was nothing before the universe, so it follows that god was present everywhere when nothing existed. It logically follows at that time god was nothing. This is often avoided by saying god exists outside of space time. For this to be the case, the word exist would have to be used in a way that is completely different from its usual definition. If one was to say god existed before time, it is the same as saying god existed for no unit of time, and in the general usage of the word exist, if something exists for no unit of time, it doesn't or didn't exist. In regards to space, the same problem arises; if god was to exist before space, it is the same as saying he existed in no space, and consequently if something exists no space, it does not actually exist. It can still exist as an abstract concept, such as numbers, but the definition of god is that god actually exists. The implications of god's omnipresence is contradictory to the concept of god.

Hell and Omnibenevolence: Hell is a huge problem. Now I will concede that if my agnostic atheism has harmed anybody, or caused me to harm anybody and god thinks I need to be punished, then fine, but not forever. The point of a punishment is to bring about more well being for the individual later. What greater good can possibly come from someone being in hell forever? NONE. "God has all wisdom. He works everything out for the good of his people ", obviously not, because eternal suffering is to no one's greater good. What does this say about the character of individuals in heaven? They can manage to enjoy themselves, while countless people burn in agony. Let's add god's omniscience. An infinite amount of years ago god was aware of your birth, death and fate. Propose you end up in hell, god knew this for all eternity, yet he let you be born, only to suffer, and yet he is going to fault you, even though he knew you would reject him.This is not a characteristic of an omni-benevolent god.

The problem of evil:
God exists.
God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent.
An omnibenevolent being would want to prevent all evils.
An omniscient being knows every way in which evils can come into existence.
An omnipotent being has the power to prevent that evil from coming into existence.
A being who knows every way in which an evil can come into existence, who is able to prevent that evil from coming into existence, and who wants to do so, would prevent the existence of that evil.
If there exists an omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent God, then no evil exists.
Evil exists (logical contradiction).
Evil and god as described by theism can not logically co-exist.

Gratuitous evil possess an even bigger problem. Babies born with cancer is no one's free will, it naturally occurs. How can one reconcile this? NO

On Causality: Your argument from causes, commonly referred to as the KCA fails to take into account quantum physics. Quantum Physics demonstrates that everything doesn't have a cause. Even if the universe did need a cause, there is no reason to go past the universe. If the universe has a supernatural cause, one could never know because supernatural claims can not be investigated. This violates Occam's razor because the notion of a supernatural cause raises unneeded questioned that can't ever be answered.

Self Contained Models Of The Universe:
-The Oscillating Universe
This is a self-contained model in which the universe evolves from a big bang, then expands and expands and then collapses upon it's self and then re-expands. This model is perfectly self-contained and no god is needed.

-Hartle Hawking
A boundless self contained universe model in which a creator is unneeded.

Any universe that is described by quantum mechanics with non-zero energy and a time independent Hamiltonian is eternal in both arrows of time.
The point isn't that any of these are the right model, rather that there are self contained models.
Christianity/ Theism Is A Poor Cosmological Model:
Theistic Cosmology basically states god created the universe. This is not a good cosmological because it is excessive and it not testable. It also makes no predictions and this is because there is an infinite degree of flexibilty. Any theist could just say "god made the universe that way".
Theism's series is as follows: X(god) --> X -->Y (universe).
A much more simple and rational series is: X(universe)-->X. (assuming there is a cause).

Genesis Is WRONG: And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

The early universe was not "dark". We know from quantum mechanics that the earliest universe was a sea of quarks, followed shortly after by a sea of free nucleons and photons. Until the era of "decoupling", about 300,000 years after the formation of the universe, the entire universe was as bright throughout as the surface of the sun is today.

The verse refers to "the face of the waters". If this verse refers to the waters on earth, such as the ocean, it is completely wrong. The early earth had no ocean. It was not until millions of years of accretion had built up the planet that liquid water began to form, both from volcanic outgassing and from the impacts of comets attracted by the gravity of the earth.

However, most Biblical scholars believe that the "waters" referred to here are those in heaven, from which rain comes. This interpretation is supported by the fact that the Genesis account later describes how these "waters" were divided from those of earth by a wall, with one portion of these divided waters forming the oceans.

But we know from science that the early universe did not have any liquid water. None at all. Not even any water molecules. In fact, for a period of several hundred thousand years, it did not have any molecules of any sort. The Genesis description of water above the "firmament" is simply wrong.
This is just the start. Genesis continues to say more non-sense, there just is not sufficient space to fully elaborate.

Next round I will address objections and get into the bible and Jesus.

Debate Round No. 1


Th3_Dr_Love forfeited this round.


Extend argument.
Debate Round No. 2


Th3_Dr_Love forfeited this round.


Con has given up two rounds. Vote pro.
Debate Round No. 3
1 comment has been posted on this debate.
Posted by thenewkidd 7 years ago
I was going to try and think of a counter as I love debating.

But I agree with to much of what you say and would have a hard time breaking your logic apart.

The only thing I could possibly potentially say would be that to non-believers it's very illogical to believe in a being such as God without seeing or definitive proof that he exists.. but that is as far as I would be able to go.
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by Sagey 7 years ago
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Total points awarded:05 
Reasons for voting decision: Con forfeited, but even without a forfeit, Pro's arguments and sources were excellent. The problem of Hell still makes Christianity Illogical.
Vote Placed by lannan13 7 years ago
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Total points awarded:04 
Reasons for voting decision: Forfeiture.

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