The Instigator
Dinis
Pro (for)
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The Contender
BaphometSgl
Con (against)
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Is God perfect?

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 4/30/2018 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,408 times Debate No: 113283
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (36)
Votes (0)

 

Dinis

Pro

For the next three rounds, we will start the debate. And please advise me in any form, since I"m new to this site.
Rules:
1. Defamatory or insultive comments are inexcusable. Fight with your argument.
2. Any source can be used as long as you can uphold its credibility

I am for God is perfect. Thank you.
BaphometSgl

Con

1: Which one god? define please and we can start the argument
2: They are 3900 Gods i cant start the argument until i know the God you're talking to
Thanks :)
Debate Round No. 1
Dinis

Pro

First off, I will support that my Christian God from the Bible is perfect.

To begin, the Bible has proven to be an incredibly reliable source of information. It surpasses any form of ancient writing, in terms of preserved manuscripts. With As much as "25,000 early writings in existence, almost 6,000 of which (many being only recognizable fragments) are Greek texts and the others being early translations of the Greek New Testament." As stated by the Institute For Creation Research (IRC). Even stating there is no other more reliable ancient source.
What does this prove? That all teachings and prophecies of the Bible are truthful and have been derived in the ancient times.

But let me separate the Old Testament from the New Testament. The Old Testament was meant for the Isrealites, but due to their constant sinning, God finally deemed them unworthy to being known as his people. Therefore, he sent his son as a sacrifice for all those worthy of being his people, and not just a group of people.
Therefore, the New Testament are the teachings He has told all his followers to follow. Now, is there any teaching from the New Testament that is unreliable or irrelevant nowadays? Therefore, it is all perfect, and since the Bible is God"s message to his people, then God"s teachings are perfect, and only a perfect beings gives perfect teachings.

Act 4: 24 states," Sovereign lord, you are the One who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and all the things in them."

Deuteronomy 32:4 states that God is "Perfect in his activity" and "who is never unjust".

Something that is "perfect" is something that is "completely made or finished, not lacking in essential parts, not defective." It is also something that "meets all requirements and measures up to the standards of excellence set."
Now, who can tell what is perfect? Only a perfect being, and that is none other than God. Of course, as imperfects we can never become perfect, but only be turned perfect.
BaphometSgl

Con

you just activated my trap card!!!

1: Bible Isn't proof that God's perfect, Bible its proof that god its immoral thug!! and ill explain in No2,
Bible isn't a demonstrable evidence since never come to be true and acceptable by science,
nobody knows exactly the persons who wrote in the bible and how many of these are
There no such thing us prophets! whose decide which one is prophet and who isn't "you can assume that i am a prophet!"

2:Lets start from the beginning, assuming that bible it's correct and based on bible !!!!!

P1: Gods creates Adam & Eve and puts them in a garden with a forbidden tree and told them not to eat from this tree
a snake talked to them (i am not gonna start with the talking snake BS coz this is Madness) and say to them to eat the apple and they do, then God appears and punish them, Why he punish 2 people created from him and putted in a place unprotected from the forbidden tree who at fist place put in the garden (God wanted them to corrupt!, and he is god he knows everything why he didn't protect them if he don't want them to sin?) So we come to the conclusion that god is Sadist !!

P2: Then he sends Adam and Eve to Earth To create more sinners And he drowns them all except Noah and his wife,
!! Straight to Genocide !! (Btw he knew at the first place that they gonna sin again and he still punish all the people)
2nd evidence that he was Sadist!!

P3: Then the peoples sin again and he sends Poor Jesus his son ( i mean himself, i mean his son , i mean himself i mean his son, well its complicated) to crucify for others sin ( That is immoral to punish someone alse for someones alse mistake)
3rd evidence that he was Sadist

P4: If you read the bible God Hates allot of things !!!
a: Divorce
b: Homosexuals, Homosexual acts
c: Worshipping the sun, moon or stars , Astrology
d: Witches, Wizards (they don't exist but he still hates them)
e: Whores
f: A proud look
g: etc

If that's a "Perfect God" or "Ideal" i don't know what kind of peoples are worshiping this scum
How can he is Perfect when he killed countless people??!!!

I am Sure God is totally Immoral Sadist and corrupted !!!
Debate Round No. 2
Dinis

Pro

Ok

1. The Bible is scientifically accurate and accurate overall. Is there any error in its prophecies?
For example, in Isaiah 13: 17-20, the Bible foretold the fall of Babylon, even as far as mentioning that it would by the hand of a man named Cyrus (Romans 4:17). This was foretold 200 years before it even occurred. All the messages and prophecies of the Bible are from God, and it is to be taken as an accurate book.
All prophets of the Bible were messengers of God, not that they possessed any special capabilities.

2. Very well. Can you disprove the Bible?

P1: Take into consideration the context. Adam and Eve had everything! They had a beautiful garden, countless number of tree that provided excellent fruits, and they had their own perfection, never to age and die. The reason why God placed the tree in the middle of the garden was to test them. Adam and Eve had everything to lose and nothing to gain, so why would they even care about one tree when they had hundreds of other fruits and trees. The forbidden fruit was nothing special, but what it symbolized was. It symbolized God"s sovereignty and his right to demand from his creation.
Once Adam and Eve disobeyed God"s order to not eat from the tree, they committed a sin, and therefore became imperfect, basically saying they knew better and not God.
Also, Adam already had knowledge of God and His righteous ways, so it was even more his fault for disobeying God.

P2: God sent no one, they brought it upon themselves. He drowns them all because they refuse to accept God as their ruler and Lord. Noah even attempted to preach, but the people of the world kept on ignoring and mocking Noah and God.

P3: Noah and everyone else were still imperfect, so they obviously were going to sin. Only until they became perfect would they not sin, and that is why he sent his perfect son. Also, his own son asked his father to send him as the sacrifice.
Note: The Bible does not speak or mention the Trinity. It is a false construct created by the Catholic Church, that is why I specified God from the Bible.

P4: Yes, God hates a lot of things we humans also hate. Also, many of those things he hates are topics and concepts, not the actual people. He is still open to forgive and redeem. There is never a more worthy, caring, and merciful being. When has he ever showed cruelty?

a. He hates unreasonable divorces. Allows divorce in extreme abuse and adultery
b. Only homosexual acts and the idea of homosexuality, as it contradicts his norms. But that can be for another debate
c. Worshipping anything else besides him he hates. There is no other God besides him and all credit in creation must go to him.
d. The idea of Witcher"s and consulting with the spirits, as it"s another form of idolizing
e. Again, the concept of fornication and sex outside of marriage
f. Proud look? Hubris or being overly pride to the extent of neglecting God"s laws is what he hates.
g. All are rightfully justified, any unjust ones?

I don"t know what kind of people are living in this world, where there exists corruption, starvation, rape, murder, death, war, disease, discrimination, poverty, suicide, depression, all under the laws of man?
The only ones that suffered in the Bible were by the hands of the devil and their lack of reverence towards the laws of God.
All that he killed threatened his people, refused his rule, and practiced horrendous acts.

There is justice in every action God takes. The New Testament contains norms still beneficial to this day. And God"s guidance has never been proven to be wrong for he is perfect, unless you have an example?
BaphometSgl

Con

1: The Bible isn't scientifically accurate by science (Do some Research ) , there is allot of errors in the prophesies and the most important is that they never say WHEN somethings gonna happened (i can tell you that in the future we gonna have war but not when and probably happens after 200 years) this is accurate PS: at the old testament says that the earth is flat! WOW!!!

2a: i cant disprove bible, but you cant prove its true 2 ( i am talking for demonstrable evidence )**** not theories !!
But i can tell you more than 5 reasons why the bible its a "Bad written book"

2b: The burden of proof lies with the believer, you have a claim, you must prove it, i don't have to disprove it, i am just saying i don't believe you , or any god! When you disprove to me that Unicorns exists WITH demonstrable evidence , we can play this game!

****you told me many times "here is my proof" and "i can prove you" without Demonstrable evidence!!!

Reason why Bible isn't a "good written book"

1: Its not well organised, The bible its a Huge mess , its written in chronological order, not thematic order! and that might be okay if bible was a history book , not so much when its a guidebook for life!

2: There are no Pictures, diagrams and charts can be very helpful but they are missing from bible, and no timeline exist !!

3: Its not very specific ,when it comes to things you not suppose to do, the list is scattered everywhere (i think maybe a sidebar that tells you if killing other peoples in the name o god its ok or not, it will be helpful i guess )

4: PAY ATTENTION TO THIS ONE! Its not consistent,There are so many contradictions throughout the Bible!!! Even genesis 1 & 2 have difficulties reconciling with each other (genesis 1 & 2 are written from the same person)

5: PAY ATTENTION HERE 2! Bible Lacks Knowledge that humans of the time could not have had, The Bible is only as scientifically accurate as the people of the time Isn't that a coincidence? it says nothing about mathematics or medicines, vaccines or the sun being a star coz people of the time didn't know about this stuff PS: There's no mention on USA to!!!

P1: Test what ? He knew the results from the beginning HE IS GOD!!! or he knows nothing?? Decide first please

P2: Go read again my P2: Round 2 , My answer is the same, I dont like to repeat myself again and again
PS: if you found it moral to kill peoples coz they refuse to accept the god, i don't know what to say!!

P3: So you admit your "Perfect God" makes the same mistake with humans 3 times in a row and fail all the 3 of them?
"""Noah and everyone else were still imperfect, so they obviously were going to sin. Only until they became perfect would they not sin, and that is why he sent his perfect son""" and he still failed with Jesus 2 cos guess what, peoples are again sinners !!

P4: """There is never a more worthy, caring, and merciful being. When has he ever showed cruelty?"""" You just admitted at "P3" that gods kills all people at the great fluid, isn't this cruelty? Are u kidding me bro? :P lol

a: He hates Divorces cos less kids less people for the army of god
b: He hates homosexuals coz they can't do kids for the army of god
c: He hates science in general not only astronomy coz time with the time they start to deny the theories of god
d: Christians burned in fire the best minds at the middle age, that's why we are 500 years behind Evolution
e: Again coz he wanted "pure" kids for the army of god
f: Coz church wants us to worship them all the time and giving them our money
g: Yes they are
h: Oh Hi mark, lol

""" And God"s guidance has never been proven to be wrong for he is perfect, unless you have an example?"""

Yes i have allot of examples but ill tell you only 1 is enough

Leviticus 25:44-46
As for your male and female slaves whom you may have: you may buy male and female slaves from among the nations that are around you. You may also buy from among the strangers who sojourn with you and their clans that are with you, who have been born in your land, and they may be your property. You may bequeath them to your sons after you to inherit as a possession forever. You may make slaves of them, but over your brothers the people of Israel you shall not rule, one over another ruthlessly.

Its a good guidance to Promote Slavery? You think its ok to own other peoples? you think this is rightful and moral?
??? Are you willing to sacrifice your Humanity for a Book say so???
Debate Round No. 3
Dinis

Pro

1: I did some research, and yes there are reasonable arguments. But God never stated that his book was supposed to be a science book. Yet what science it does contain proves to be accurate.

Stars follow a predictable pattern (Jeremiah 31:35)

"There is One who is dwelling above the circle of the earth." (Isaiah 40:22) The Hebrew word chugh, here translated "circle," may also be rendered "sphere."3 Other Bible translations read, "the globe of the earth" (Douay Version) and "the round earth.""Moffatt.
Earth is told to be flat??

Far before any other astronomer proved Earth was a sphere.

Earth is floating in space. (Job 26:7) in a time when most believed earth stood on pillars or on the backs of creatures.

In Leviticus 11: 20-23 , it is argued that the Bible incorrectly states the anatomy of insects. Yet, as researchers further investigated, it was proven that the description the Bible gave was done in the manner that most people of that time viewed insects. Many people at that time thought that a locusts large back legs did not count, and therefore was refered to as a "four legged".

I"ve already stated that the Bible foretold that Cyprus would defeat Babylon. Although you can say that there would be a war in the future, the Bible literally told who and how he was going to defeat Babylon. At that time, Babylon was a super power, and no one believed that would happen, yet the exact man named Cyprus defeated Babylon by draining their river and entering through the front gates. (Isaiah 13:17-20)(Romans 4:17)What prophecy has proven to be wrong, please provide a specific example.

2b:
"Bible Isn't proof that God's perfect, Bible its proof that god its immoral thug!!"
"The burden of proof lies with the believer, you have a claim, you must prove it, i don't have to disprove it"

How come I have to prove that the Bible is proof of God"s perfection when you don"t have to prove your own stance? Why can"t I ask that you prove your own statement?

Also, there is no archeological evidence of there ever existing unicorns. We are capable of uncovering dinosaur fossils, but not unicorn fossils. As well, the Bible"s prophecies are evidence, as no historian is capable of proving them false.

1. The Bible is organized, with the Old Testament and New Testament. Take into account the Bible was created in a span of several hundred years by several authors, it"s impressive that the MAIN themes are still coinciding with each book of the Bible. For example, Mathew, Lucas, and John all detail the life of Jesus written by different authors, even with their differing perspectives. If it"s a huge mess, how is it in chronological order?

2. God sent several messengers, sent His son to save humanity and perform miracles. Even then, the very people who saw those miracles refused to believe in God. If seeing a man rise from the dead, a women cured from blood flow, or feeding several thousand people with scraps isn"t enough to even convince the common people, whom many eventually murdered Christ, then I don"t know what more people could ask.

3. All you need to know is present in the Bible. God still wants people to keep they"re free will, so each person will decide according to the morals of God, and each one will answer to Him in the end. About killing, God has the right to choose which of his creations gets to live and die, for he is their creator, who are we to decide?

4. Please provide specific evidence because I can"t just surf through everything.

Let me state, you can"t take everything literally from the Bible, many things are symbolic and therefore should take more then two reads to understand.
You can"t always think in terms of now, take into account of how the people were living at that time.

5. God did not mention it because every person had their right to choose where to live. As well, was God supposed to hand out the information? It took hundreds of years for people to accept the Earth was round, even after astronomers proved it so. Do you believe that the people of that time would accept the fact that disease is a single called bacteria capable of rapid replication? They would have no bearings, rather God wanted to use examples that existed at that time. He wanted people to understand, for God would take care of the disease and astronomy Himself, as it is no difficulty for the All powerful, God wanted to the people to accept him as their God.

P1: He wanted to test their obedience. He has the right to see the future as he wishes, and he has the power to foretell the future. He can choose not to see the future, He is the Supreme and All-mighty, we dare to dictate what He should do.

P2: Yes, God has the right to demand our service. He is the molder and we are the mud, how can the mud tell the molder what to do. How can He let those who refuse His rule and laws to live, only to fill the planet with more wicked? In order for those who serve God to live peacefully on the world, he must rid it of the ones who will not follow his righteous commandments.
Why do you think it would be okay for those who don"t serve him to live? He promises perfect live, peace, and happiness if you follow his rule, so why wouldn"t you, what can you find without God?

P3: He did not fail, Noah and his family still had sin, meaning imperfection, so there would still be imperfection. When God sent His son as a sacrifice, it wasn"t going to clean everyone"s sins immediately . It gave the opportunity for those who wanted to serve God a chance to live forever. He is offering this to everyone, but many are refusing to take this opportunity. Only those who serve Him with loyalty, will in the end, receive the compensation of everlasting life. Only those willing wil live and he is giving everyone a fair chance, having waited for thousands of years.

P4: At the time of Noah, people were drunkards, murderers, rapists, or simply unwilling to follow God and have the chance of everlasting life. He was merciful because Noah spent 40 years preaching to these people, yet they refused! And no I"m not kidding you, unless you are kidding me that humanity is any better off ruling themselves, because aren"t things going well?

A. God has an innumerable army of angels, and each angel could kill millions with ease. What purpose would humans serve. Also, God doesn"t eliminate us all completely because he still wants those worthy to have a chance of salvation.
B. No, it"s because it"s unnatural and has only proven to bring greater suffering (hence higher suicides)
C. Science has proven his existence. This universe is too organized to be a coincidence. And it"s the Catholic Church that denies it, no God. In fact, God believes the Catholic Church to be a false religion. Only in the Bible can you find him.
D. Where"s the proof? And don"t confuse Christiana with crusaders or Other false religions, for they were not blessed. And evolution?
E. There is no one pure but Him and His children. There is no biblical evidence to support this.
F. The Church is a false religion, I only serve my Holy God, in the Bible.
H. ...

Slavery was not a simple as that. Slavery turned horrendous over time due to humans wickedness. Before, people willingly became slaves and even offered to serve their masters for longer periods of time. How people acted and thought back then was different from now, context matters and if you refuse this everytime, your argument is straining.

God has no longer allowed slavery, since HUMANS have turned it into a wicked thing. It was even though to be a benefit for the poor back then.
Yes, I would rather serve and be a slave to God for perfect everlasting life, then to enjoy only a few years of happiness on this Earth to only perish forever in the end.

Thank you for your argument again, best of wishes.
BaphometSgl

Con

1: 2D and 3D shapes :

2D shapes:
A 2D shape is a - FLAT - shape. We are learning about the following 2D shapes -
CIRCLE , square, rectangle, triangle, pentagon, hexagon, octagon.

When we talk about the properties of these shapes we look at the number of sides that each shape has and the
number of corners. A corner is where 2 sides meet.

3D shapes:
A 3D shape is a blown up shape. We are learning about the following 3D shapes
" SPHERE , cube, cuboid, cylinder, cone, square based pyramid, triangular based
pyramid.

Circle doesn't mean Sphere, all Circles Are 2D so Bilble Suported that The earth Is 2D
Circle is Circle & Sphere is Sphere they are 2 Different things!!!!

PS:Read some physics Instead of Bible it will help you allot!!

2a: The Burden of proof :

Holder of the burden: When two parties are in a discussion and one makes a claim that the other disputes, the one who
makes the claim typically has a burden of proof to justify or substantiate that claim

2b: Shifting the burden of proof:

One way in which one would attempt to shift the burden of proof is by committing a logical fallacy known as the
argument from ignorance. It occurs when either a proposition is assumed to be true because it has not yet been proved
false or a proposition is assumed to be false because it has not yet been proved true

2c: So what you do in the whole debate isn't giving me a Demonstrable Evidence that god exists and he is perfect, you
just Shifting the burden of proof

The one who has the claim must prove that his claim is right, not the one who denies the claim
( is this simple to understand?)

I can go with your way 2 and say: The Unicorns exist, Can you prove me wrong with Demonstrable evidence??? i don't
think so!!! So stop Shift the burden of proof to me please, i am not the one who claims something, i am the one who deny
it!!

If you're willing to believe that you gonna award at the afterlife coz you're loyal to a book i must told you that there is not
proof for afterlife, So you're gambling at 100.000.000 numbers that you gonna have a result of 865.888.998 Good luck
with the Joker!!!

You support god at any way so i don't have something alse to discuss, But you didn't prove me anything quoting the bible
all the time coz bible isn't a demonstrable Evidence!!

I wanna thank my Opponent at this Debate And all the peoples who watched it.
Debate Round No. 4
36 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by BaphometSgl 3 years ago
BaphometSgl
ty for the debate 2 :)
Posted by BaphometSgl 3 years ago
BaphometSgl
Because Hebrew at that time was with IQ below 70 doesn't mean that circle is Sphere

and if god is perfect and bible is inspired by God then god could tell them "Sphere" and not "Circle"

stop making excuses
Posted by Dinis 3 years ago
Dinis
Still, thanks for the debate!
Posted by Dinis 3 years ago
Dinis
Still, thanks for the debate!
Posted by Dinis 3 years ago
Dinis
Sorry, but did you see the Hebrew description of circle? It can also translate to sphere.
Posted by Dinis 3 years ago
Dinis
Again, slavery is not that simple. Slavery in those old times was even sought for. Many people living in poverty offered themselves. As well, being a slave was Better then being an owner at times. The owner still performed manual labors, fed their slaves, provided room, and treated them well. There was a time limit of 7 years, but if you were to read the Bible more in depth, some slaves even asked to stay longer with their masters. They acted more like servants and maids.
The reason why slavery is so negative nowadays is because other cultures started implementing this slavery, but the wickedness of the people turned this fair system into an abusive and horrendous system of crime. What do you hear more of, Planatation slavery, or Ancient Biblical slavery? They are very different.
Posted by BaphometSgl 3 years ago
BaphometSgl
So you support slavery and you say its ok to own other peoples coz god say it right?
Posted by Dinis 3 years ago
Dinis
Okay, okay, I"m really sorry but I"m gonna do update my part tomorrow.
Posted by Dinis 3 years ago
Dinis
Slavery is not simply horrendous, there is much more to it than just owning a person. Second, God has the right to choose what creations he allows to exist, unless you have the right to decide what God"s right are towards his creations. But I"ll provide further detail.
Still, thanks!
Posted by Dinis 3 years ago
Dinis
Slavery varied from region. Slavery in the Middle East, in ancient times, was fair, even some slaves willingly asked to remain as slaves. God has removed this, but slavery wasn"t harsh like the African slaves in plantations.
It"s like me saying that an American soldier fighting for freedom is the same as a Nazi driven by anti-Semitism. (Now, I don"t condone war)
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