The Instigator
IsaiahWOod23
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
omar2345
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

Is God real, Is the bible real

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/4/2018 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 652 times Debate No: 119319
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (3)
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IsaiahWOod23

Pro

I will let my opponent go first, We have actually been debating this t topic a lot in my commentary of another debate. I wish respect and thankyou for debating.
omar2345

Con

Thank you for having me.

I am currently in a similar debate like this so I will repeat what I said in that debate as my first argument.


Premise 1:

Believing in God is illogical. The Christianic God is given so many titles it would be difficult to explain how God exists or might even be impossible.

Premise 2:

All arguments for God are flawed. Lets take the Kalam Cosmological Argument.
P1: Whatever begins to exist has a cause
P2: The universe began to exist
C: Therefore, The universe has a cause
Cause is not sufficient grounds to explain the existence of God.

Premise 3:

There is no evidence for the Christianic God. The Bible cannot be verified to be valid therefore it cannot be taken as evidence. The 3 main ways to verify evidence is:

peer review (Christians, Someone from another faith, Scientist (preferably an atheist or agnostic),

repeatable (Can we test someone else being born fatherless? ),

should predict something (The Anti-Christ or whatever). Bible does predict but have not passed the other 2 criteria that I deem as evidence.

Evidence definition: the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid.
I used the Oxford living Dictionaries definition instead of the Merriam Webster one since they are not helpful in what I am trying to say.

Source:

https://en. Oxforddictionaries. Com/definition/evidence

Debate Round No. 1
IsaiahWOod23

Pro

So I will start.
Your first premise is flawed. You say that because the God of the Universe Has so many names it would be difficult to explain God. That is 100 percent correct. God is Not bound by time, He is sovereign, Omnipotent, And boundless perfect figure. Because God has many names is irrelevant to whether God exist.
Your second premise is correct, I agree with you completely. The Cosmological argument is not enough to prove that God exist. There are many things that prove that God exist, That is just a tiny piece. (i will elaborate more through the argument)
Addressing your third premise here is this.
There were hundreds of thousands of people that saw Jesus walk on this planet, Let alone live. People saw him walk on waters, Feed ten thousands with a couple pieces of bread and fish, Even saw him walk on water, And even saw him ascend up to heaven.
Here is another thing, Of course we can't test someone else from being fatherless, He is God. He does not abide by humane things. He does what he pleases. There are some things that will only happen once, This is one of them.
Your right the bible has predicted, ALOT. There were hundreds of prophecy that came true Just bu Jesus birth. And we know by historical manuscripts that the predictions were 500 or more years prior to Christ being born. A unavoidable supernatural fact.
I do want to say thx for accepting, I give full respect to you.
omar2345

Con

Your first premise is flawed. You say that because the God of the Universe Has so many names it would be difficult to explain God. That is 100 percent correct. God is Not bound by time, He is sovereign, Omnipotent, And boundless perfect figure. Because God has many names is irrelevant to whether God exist.
You say my premise is flawed then you say it is 100 percent correct. The many names are required to logically make an arugment for God. All-knowing and all-powerful to name two. Logically it would be really unlikely might even be impossible to logically make a case for it. The examples are not flawed because that would have to come into when assessing the God of Christianity. Not proving or stating an argument for each attributes that God has would be misleading and will bring a fair outcome if an attribute is removed to suit someone's agenda.

There were hundreds of thousands of people that saw Jesus walk on this planet, Let alone live. People saw him walk on waters, Feed ten thousands with a couple pieces of bread and fish, Even saw him walk on water, And even saw him ascend up to heaven.
All witness testimonies. No pictures since they did not have any cameras. Jesus walking on the planet is irrelavant. Walk on water? Cannot determine if the people who vouched for Jesus were all non-believers or not susceptical to illusion which makes it difficult to believe even a single person did not ask questions or make sure it was not an illusion. Everyone I am sure looked and were amazed not making sure it was an illusion. Ascend to heaven. If they point to the sky. Well we can say the sky has clouds but has not been reported to have airbone terrain. We cannot verify if the people were in question a question of followers of Jesus, Another religion or someone did not believe in religion.

Here is another thing, Of course we can't test someone else from being fatherless, He is God. He does not abide by humane things. He does what he pleases. There are some things that will only happen once, This is one of them.
The Bible is not repeatable as a whole so it does not complete what I call evidence.

Your right the bible has predicted, ALOT. There were hundreds of prophecy that came true Just bu Jesus birth. And we know by historical manuscripts that the predictions were 500 or more years prior to Christ being born. A unavoidable supernatural fact.
Fits 1 of my 3 criteria.

May we still learn something new
Debate Round No. 2
IsaiahWOod23

Pro

The reason why I said your first premise is flaws is because of your view of the premise. I was making the point that instead of using the premise against God, I was using it as evidence, Because if finite beings can describe the God of an infinite universe, Then God is not infinite, And therefore is illogical that the God I believe was God. But God is infinite, A God who created every atom and cell. That, Is logical for the God to be above human Logic.
Also another thing, You can tell if he people who saw him were unbelievers, They crucified him on the cross. The same people that followed Jesus and his miracles were the same people that killed him. What believer what kill his savior?
Also, You can always say that it might have been allusion, That people were just seeing things, The reality is, If 500 people is not enough, And more people seeing God doing thousands of the supernatural, If thats not enough evidence, Then I cannot help you, And were not talking logically.
Also we can verify if they were biased or christian, By historical records of the event. The bible is not the only historical document that records many of these events.
https://www. Bethinking. Org/jesus/ancient-evidence-for-jesus-from-non-christian-sources
Also, What does it mean for the"bible as a whole to be repeatable" do you want history to repeat itself and have jesus walk the earth again, Please elaborate.
omar2345

Con

I was making the point that instead of using the premise against God, I was using it as evidence, Because if finite beings can describe the God of an infinite universe, Then God is not infinite, And therefore is illogical that the God I believe was God. But God is infinite, A God who created every atom and cell. That, Is logical for the God to be above human Logic.
How does explaining an infinite result the idea in question not being infinite? That does not logically follow. B your logic explaining Trump as the president makes him not the president. Our finite life can point infinities like numbers, Even numbers, Prime numbers etc doesn't mean they somehow become finite.

You can tell if he people who saw him were unbelievers, They crucified him on the cross. The same people that followed Jesus and his miracles were the same people that killed him. What believer what kill his savior?
Does not prove Bible is real or God is real so irrelevant.

You can always say that it might have been allusion, That people were just seeing things, The reality is, If 500 people is not enough, And more people seeing God doing thousands of the supernatural, If that's not enough evidence, Then I cannot help you, And were not talking logically.
Can 500 people be wrong? Yes do we have anything else to go by? No. Therefore it is a belief since we cannot verify it to be true. If testimonies are wrong are they still testimonies? Yes. If evidence is wrong is it still evidence? No.
Evidence: the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid.

https://www. Bethinking. Org/jesus/ancient-evidence-for-jesus-from-non-christian-sources
Looked at the source. I specifically want current scientists who can verify the texts to be true. More specifically a Christian scientist, Religious scientist that does not follow Christianity and an atheist/agnostic scientist. My arguments would still be the same for past famous people. It is still testimonies no other form of evidence can be found.

What does it mean for the"bible as a whole to be repeatable"
Lets take one example. The virgin Mary. Can a women give birth without being fertilized? No therefore this cannot be repeatable. If a miracle happens once and only once then it is not repeatable therefore under my 3 criteria The Bible is not evidence which does not prove the existence of God.



Debate Round No. 3
IsaiahWOod23

Pro

Numbers are infinite, We are not, Plus I have never seen a infinite number because I am not infinite. In reality, People cannot see a infinite number because we are finite, Unlike God who is infinite. So it is logical for there to be an infinite God, Because finite beings cannot make infinite anything, Neither can nothing (big bang theory).
In your third premise you were talking about the type of witnesses who saw Jesus. Because Jesus is the main point of religion and is God, It is very relevant, Proving that Christians were not biased seeing Jesus.
You are redefining evidence, If eyewitnesses are not enough as evidence (you don't get much closer than that) then that argument is pointless. If you think everyone who saw Jesus do something supernatural things is a liar.
There are many people who saw Jesus resurrect and have written testimonies about it, Most of the new testament were witnesses of Jesus.
Here is the flaw in one of your premises, A repeatable miracle. Because God won't be born of a women again does not mean it is false. God is above all human nature. He does supernatural things that are not repeatable by humans. Because God did something he can only do, And we can't repeat, Does not make the deed fales. You have your criteria, But that is not the real standard, That is your standard. I my goal was to convince you of the truth it would be different. The goal of a debate is to convince the reader through logic. So because of that I lost in your eyes, Because I use logic for the readers.
omar2345

Con

Numbers are infinite, We are not, Plus I have never seen a infinite number because I am not infinite. In reality, People cannot see a infinite number because we are finite, Unlike God who is infinite. So it is logical for there to be an infinite God
I said numbers are infinite. That is it. I never said a number is infinite and we are finite is besides the point. We are finite and we can assess the numbers are infinite. Meaning your logic does not work. If finite humans cannot see infinite then why do we call numbers infinite?

You are redefining evidence, If eyewitnesses are not enough as evidence (you don't get much closer than that) then that argument is pointless. If you think everyone who saw Jesus do something supernatural things is a liar.
Testimonies are used to paint a picture. Testimonies can lead to what happend, When it happend, Where. How and why. As we cannot see the evidence of Jesus walking on water then it is not proof if 500 people said he did. Testimonies by itself do not get someone jailed. They are used as I mentioned above to answer questions. The questions are then verified by evidence on the scene. If no evidence is found of someone being murdered on the street like blood we can assume the person's testimony was not valid.

There are many people who saw Jesus resurrect and have written testimonies about it, Most of the new testament were witnesses of Jesus.
Argumentum ad populum. A lot of people saying something is true does not make it true.

Because God won't be born of a women again does not mean it is false. God is above all human nature. He does supernatural things that are not repeatable by humans.
May I remind you the title of the debate? Is God real, Is the Bible real You have already assumed God's existence instead of giving me evidence for it to be the case. The more rational position would be to disbelieve then believe.

I my goal was to convince you of the truth it would be different. The goal of a debate is to convince the reader through logic. So because of that I lost in your eyes, Because I use logic for the readers.
Going by the title you have not proved God is real nor the Bible is real. I have rebutted your claims and saw the flaws in your evidence. I then asked you to point to current scientist that state the Bible to be the word of God. You did not as far as I saw in your Round 4. Next round hopefully you point to a current scientist who has written a scientific paper on the Bible.

Debate Round No. 4
IsaiahWOod23

Pro

Have you seen an infinite number? I know I haven't. There is basic logic that all people know. When you create something, You are better than the creation. You can't create something better then your selves. You might say"buildings are better than us, We copy DNA and put in other kids". Did we create the resources to do those things, Wood comes from trees, All we do is cut them, No body has "created anything" people only use what is given. That is why we can't calculate infinite numbers. THERE IS NO ENDING. Do we end, Yes. So we did not create it. Does God end, No. Nothing finite can create, Calculate, Contemplate anything infinite. The reason why God is logical is because he is infinite, His creation is finite, Can infinite contemplate, Create, Calculate infinite, Absolutely! Because we can say infinite, Does not mean we can assess it, We don't come close to it. I
Also, I gave you eyewitness testimonies of people seeing these things, Who are recorded in history (other books). You example is irrelevant to the main subject, Jesus walking on blood on the street are not even in the same universe of ideals.
Either there are thousands of insane people who were eyewitness to Jesus miracles, Or they were 100% insane. I going with the first one. Also B. C is recorded to Jesus life, The turning point in history.
I already gave you evidence, I cannot emphasize this enough. The best evidence is people seeing stuff, People saw everything I'm saying. We can't go back in time and go to the event itself, So we believe what thousands of people say.
I proved to you God is real, Whether you believe that or not is your premise. The bible is real because of the thousand of the manuscripts, Dead see scrolls, Dating all the way to 3000 b. C, Dating back in the old testament.
Also all these people were/are christian scientist who agree with what I'm saying, Https://www. Imj. Org. Il/en/wings/shrine-book/dead-sea-scrolls
Also ICR is a big organization that is full of christian scientist.
Thank you for the debate, Thankyou!
omar2345

Con

You are better than the creation
We can see that people have been improving. Generation by generation people have been living longer lives and more prosperous. This is a blanket statement but I only needed to show one example to prove your absolute statement wrong.

No body has "created anything"
You created this debate therefore you are wrong.

we can't calculate infinite numbers.
I never said this. I said numbers are infinite not that we can calculate it.

Nothing finite can create, Calculate, Contemplate anything infinite.

Do not see how you explained this above so I will say we can know of infinities without needing to calculate it.

The reason why God is logical is because he is infinite

The difference between God and maths is that we can see maths we cannot see God (When written of course). If we cannot use our perception to perceive God how is it logical to believe God exists? I will answer it for you it is not. Laws of maths can be proved to be true (Answer is the same both sides of the equation). God cannot.

Can infinite contemplate, Create, Calculate infinite, Absolutely!
Contradiction. Look at the statement above and the one I also quoted which starts with Nothing.

Because we can say infinite, Does not mean we can assess it, We don't come close to it.
We can assess numbers are infinite but I don't see the point of writing numbers until the day we die. It is pointless.

Jesus walking on blood on the street are not even in the same universe of ideals.
Mis-characterizing me I guess. I don't know how you got this. I said: "If no evidence is found of someone being murdered on the street like blood we can assume the person's testimony was not valid. " and you somehow got that.

Either there are thousands of insane people who were eyewitness to Jesus miracles, Or they were 100% insane.
Maybe Jesus was lying and used illusions to fool humans. My theory is a theory like yours but you use an unverified, Non-repeatable religious book which is believed to be true.

The best evidence is people seeing stuff
Disagree. People can be deceived in the heat of a moment. Ask 3 people what caused the fire when they escaped a burning a building. Chances are they would all have 3 different stories because of the shock of the incident. Same can be possible with Jesus.

So we believe what thousands of people say.

Belief is not evidence therefore eye-witness is not valid proof the Bible is true or God exists.

I proved to you God is real

No you did not and hope someone votes on this debate to make sure I am not getting the wrong idea. We might both be wrong if voter does vote for me but it is about the argument and your arguments do not proof God.

thousand of the manuscripts,

Not fair dumping this argument now but just thought about it. Hebrew has not been 100% translated therefore people are assuming what the text means. If the words are not a complete translation it cannot even be considered to be a true telling.

Debate Round No. 5
3 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Posted by omar2345 3 years ago
omar2345
@IsaiahWOod23

If you do not believe me about Hebrew then here is a source. This is Quora but it does state facts that Hebrew was not 100% translated into English. Meaning the book you are reading is not the word of God. Could not add it in since you did have a small character limit.

Source: https://www. Quora. Com/What-is-lost-in-the-translation-of-the-Bible-from-Hebrew-to-English
Posted by missmedic 3 years ago
missmedic
Kalam cosmological argument fails because the first premise is contradicted by the third premise.
Posted by logicae 3 years ago
logicae
XD, Yes omar2345 is in a similar debate. If you want to catch my response to con's initial arguments, Go to the link:

https://www. Debate. Org/debates/It-Takes-More-Faith-To-Be-An-Atheist/1/comments/

Happy debating ya'll,

-logicae
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