The Instigator
godrulz
Pro (for)
Winning
6 Points
The Contender
BGreeneID
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points

Is God timeless or does He experience endless time?

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
godrulz
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 3/12/2017 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,413 times Debate No: 100837
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (33)
Votes (2)

 

godrulz

Pro

The traditional view suggests that God is strongly immutable, impassible, timeless, etc. Not all tradition is truth. I would suggest this view came later and is from Plato, Augustine, Aristotle, Aquinas, Boethius, etc. I would suggest that endless time (duration, sequence, succession) is Hebraic, biblical, coherent and will have implications for omniscience, foreknowledge, prayer, etc. Related issues of Einstein/relativity, etc. factor in, but are measures and perceptions of time the same as philosophical, fundamental time?

For theists and secular philosophers, this is a wide open, technical debate. From a Christian view, I would agree more with Nicholas Wolterstorff, J.R. Lucas, etc. with William Lane Craig's view of timeless before creation/temporal after creation being better than strictly timeless views.

Biblical support exists, but godly philosophy/thinking will also be necessary to have an informed view since the Bible is not explicit on all theological/philosophical issues.
BGreeneID

Con

there is no god. religion is a disgusting cult
Debate Round No. 1
godrulz

Pro

Why are there so many immature, ignorant, arrogant people ruining debates. Finish responding, so I can start again with a mature person who sticks to the topic.

IF there was a God, would He be timeless or temporal? Even atheistic philosophers are interested in this question.
BGreeneID

Con

There is no god, therefore your debate is just another disgusting attempt to instill religion on a secular site. Why do YOU have to troll us with this nonsense?
Debate Round No. 2
godrulz

Pro

Saying there is no God is a claim that you are not making argumentation for. I did not know this is a secular site since it has a philosophy and religion section that theists would have a place at the table to make an argument. The debate is not about whether God exists, but is for those who would inquire about how an eternal God relates to time/eternity. Theistic and atheistic thinkers speculate on this (if there is a god, then...).

Why would you engage in a debate just to mock and discredit? This is ignorant and immature. These topics are allowed here and of interest to people who can think, not just beg the question.

Is there a way to refuse to allow a con to participate when they are just being a troll?
BGreeneID

Con

go f*ck yourself
Debate Round No. 3
godrulz

Pro

Don't be a mental midget.
BGreeneID

Con

Go f*ck yourself bible thumping racist white trump lover
Debate Round No. 4
33 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 21 through 30 records.
Posted by FollowerofChrist1955 3 years ago
FollowerofChrist1955
godrulz;
Wrong. The warning sign is the sidestepping of direct scriptures in lieu of ones OWN,thoughts, beliefs and desires. That is the reason we have approximately 33,820 offshoots of Christian denominations. While they and you seek theology, your missing the boat and wandering further from the truth.
The devil is very clever, if you want to stop a nun, you don't try to prevent her from praying, you bog her down WITH prayer, that though she is unable to be turned to evil, she nonetheless can be rendered useless, in prayer that she cannot TURN anyone ELSE to Christ.
Your duties to God is NOT to pull into yourself, it is to spread the gospel of Christ, it is not to prove the existence of God, it is to let your light so shine that they may see the Lord at work IN YOU, and glorify your Father which s in heaven, and that isn't going to happen by you looking for theology, it's going to happen by you being obedient.

The 33,820 theologies is sufficient I think for the time being, we require NO MORE. By the way, the 33,820 are STILL Saved believers, because eternal life IS FREE. But they are sacrificing inheritance and reward. I made the mistake of thinking THEY were wrong ... I was lead to the scriptures which shows me WHY they are still saved despite, going the wrong way. It is here:

Isaiah 53:6
We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to our own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

So you see, they're still saved. Just walking wrong.

The Bible tells you all you need. All the Apostles And Jesus, believed the SAME thing, NOT differing theologies. Do you see NOW why it's a mistake to seek a theology, seek God, and God will TEACH you.
Posted by godrulz 3 years ago
godrulz
FollowerofChrist1955: It is the glory of a king to search out a matter. A biblical, coherent theology is one less barrier to unbelief or strained relationship with God. We have revelation and reason to try to understand God and His ways, but not exhaustively. Foolish, vain controversies and disputes, in context, relate to vapid, pseudo-intellectual things, not to theology, godly philosophy, etc. God invites us to reason and believers strive for a biblical, coherent view on all vs some topics.

Measures of time are physical and relative. Einstein adopted Mach's anti-supernaturalism, whereas Newton understood the philosophical, absolute nature of time as a concept of duration, even within God's eternal being.
Posted by FollowerofChrist1955 3 years ago
FollowerofChrist1955
As to what is absent from the Bible, is deliberate, as God states as matter of fact, that if it was important He would have told us. In truth we DO tend to ask questions not important by Gods way of thinking. In fact many a Christian will argue matters of no real importance, though by all accounts it appears a very natural thing for us to do?

2 Timothy 2:23
But reject foolish and ignorant speculation, for you know that it breeds quarreling.

Titus 3:9
But avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, arguments, and quarrels about the Law, because these things are pointless and worthless.

2 Timothy 2:13-15
13if we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself. 14Remind the believers of these things, charging them before God to avoid quarreling over words; this is in no way profitable, and leads its listeners to ruin. 15Make every effort to present yourself approved to God, an unashamed workman who accurately handles the word of truth."
Posted by FollowerofChrist1955 3 years ago
FollowerofChrist1955
No need for philosophy, consider the realities of time itself. Time is a physical property, hence it is effected by gravitation. Atomic clocks set at different altitudes demonstrates a difference in time as the gravity is different in each location, one will run faster than the other, no matter the synchronization . God functions outside our four dimensions, height,width,length and time.
Hence the twins, one traveling in space, will return younger than the one left upon earth? Another thought is Gods ability to move between the nucleus of the atom and the electrons that circle around it ... moving through solid objects. As the nucleus of the atom is not tangible to us, because we are limited by our chemical makeup, being made also of atoms, our electrons are stopped by the electrons of other atoms, giving us the sensation of solidness in items comprised mostly of empty space, that is the (illusion of reality) spoken of by quantum physicist.
Posted by DeletedUser 3 years ago
DeletedUser
santa?
Posted by dsjpk5 3 years ago
dsjpk5
Integers aren't ONLY endless, their infinite. Just like God isn't ONLY endless, but infinite. And duration absolutely implies something you can measure:

https://www.google.com...

As for the Bible using language that implies physical time existing befor creation, I would assert it often uses phenomenological language to express matters in a way our human mind can comprehend them but aren't scientifically accurate:

And the sun stood still, and the moon stopped, until the nation took vengeance on their enemies" (Josh 10:13a).
Posted by godrulz 3 years ago
godrulz
Rjupudi18....if you have some basic knowledge; it would be more applicable if you are a theist and/or Christian.
Posted by Rjupudi18 3 years ago
Rjupudi18
I would like to participate if you're interested.
Posted by godrulz 3 years ago
godrulz
Evidence: Hey Godrulz, what is your view, what would I debate since God is outside of time, just as Infinite is outside of space.
Another words, do you believe that Jesus (who is the Beginning and the End, is God? Residing in "infinite time"?God is not in time, just as our mind/soul isn't, .. our mind is of God, Infinite and Eternal.
Time is like space, only valid. or only makes sense for finite/physical things.

As for Einstein's Relativity story, it is solely based on the BB-Evolution religion, in support of the story of what supposedly happened millions and billions 0f years ago, before the religions invented all these gods in time and space. His theory has nothing to do with reality, just like religiously created gods don't.

Answer: This is the point of the debate. I dispute that God is outside of time, but that it is an eternal aspect of His personal experience. Time is not a created thing, not space, not a place, not a line. Saying He is outside of time is a spatial analogy, a category confusion.

I affirm the Deity of Christ. He is I AM (self-existent; Jehovahistic identity). He is Alpha and Omega, titles of Deity that show His eternality. Neither expression means that God is timeless. They mean He is eternal without beginning or end, not timeless, but divine unqualified temporality (duration). We have to prove or disprove this with other verses and arguments, not a proof text that can be claimed by both sides.
We are finite and our person, spirit, mind, soul, body is actually in time/temporal, not timeless. Mind is not physical, but it is not timeless. Time is not like space, but spatial events can be located with a time referent. Einstein has application for affects of gravity on clocks, perceptions of time with motion, etc. (measures of time/physical, not absolute, philosophical time I would debate....another category confusion). God has revealed Himself in space-time through creation, Christ, Scripture. False religions are invented by men.
Posted by godrulz 3 years ago
godrulz
dsjpk5: Doesn't "endless time" imply a beginning? After all, duration and succession implies a beginning. You can't measure something if it has no beginning or end.

So the question for you, Pro, is... when do you think God began to exist?

Answer: God is everlasting with no beginning and no end. I do not think endless numbers (integers plus and minus) implies a beginning. God is uncreated, but that does not mean He is timeless. An endless duration of time is infinite. Perhaps you are thinking of the objection of an infinite regress supposedly not being possible. This would be true for finite, created things, but not abstract things like numbers and time. Endless duration can exist with or without change and does not have to be measured. Ps. 90:2 talks about a before and after creation. Rev. 1:4 uses tensed expressions about God. Endless duration is not impossible in both directions. God did not begin to exist. Love did not begin to exist. Duration is an aspect of an eternal God's experience. A personal being must think, act, feel is sequence. Chronology is used of God, not timelessness (whatever that means). Measures of time (sun, moon, stars, clocks) have a beginning, but not time itself as a concept vs 'thing'.
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by DNehlsen 3 years ago
DNehlsen
godrulzBGreeneIDTied
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Total points awarded:50 
Reasons for voting decision: Arguer pro made an opening statement for his case. Arguer con made no refutation or argument, thus looses convincing arguments. Con failed to use proper grammar in his short, aggressive responses. Con also loses conduct and grammar points because of this.
Vote Placed by dsjpk5 3 years ago
dsjpk5
godrulzBGreeneIDTied
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Total points awarded:10 
Reasons for voting decision: Twice, Con told Pro to fck himself. This is poor conduct.

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