The Instigator
KJVPrewrather
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
Nudely
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

Is Jesus God?

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/6/2017 Category: Religion
Updated: 10 months ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 413 times Debate No: 105575
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (4)
Votes (0)

 

KJVPrewrather

Pro

I will let con go first. I'll be using the KJV Bible.
Nudely

Con

Is Jesus God? No, Jesus is a pious fiction brought to you by people who were not content with Jewish micromanagement and the tedious Pharisees, Sadducees, scribes, and priesthood. At every turn, they find fault with the Jewish hierarchy, but fail to condemn the Romans. Pontius Pilot "washes his hands" of Jesus alleged crimes. A Roman soldier is said to be more faithful than Jesus' disciples when he allows Jesus to pray for one of the soldier's loved ones back home, rather than have Jesus walk the whole way there.

Kyroot.com currently lists 1,634 reasons why Christianity is false, (don't worry, it takes plenty of swipes at Islam and Judaism along the way) and JesusNeverExisted.com explores much of the history in Rome, Greece, Egypt, the Levant, etc. in an attempt to give you a much more rational idea (that is, more rational than the excited propaganda written by the authors of Gospel fiction,) of what was going on in the area during that time as well as the events of three or four centuries later.

William Dever's, "Did God Have A Wife?" video on youtube is enlightening. Dever was a young Christian ld who wanted to be an archaeologist. He was "forced" to take a course in Biblical Criticism, which he deplored, because he "knew" the Bible was the absolute truth. So then he goes off to the Levant and digs around for twenty or thirty years, and this is what he came away with:

"In theory it ought to be easy to talk about the Israelite religion, you just go the bible and read it, it's all about religion... but if you think about it for a moment, the Hebrew bible or the Christian Old Testament, is not a very good source for reconstructing the real religions of ancient Israel, for many reasons: first of all, the text as we have it was put together after the history of Israel was over; after the fall of Jerusalem, in the exile; and the bible, which is not a book, but a whole library of books, was written by a handful of elites, and they were all men. Do you think if we'd had a women's bible it might have been different? Oh yes! But these were elites. They were all members of ultra right wing orthodox nationalist parties, and what they did was to do revisionist history. They rewrote the history of Israel, although they had old sources, and that's the story as we have it today. Now I ask you to remember that the bible is a minority report, written by a small committee. It provides an idealistic picture of what Israel should have been, but never was. It would have been had they been in charge, but they never were. So, what you get is a portrait, alright, but it is a portrait of a certain Israel that is a later construct. Where would you go to find out about the real Israel in the Iron Age?... Archaeology!"

~William Dever~

https://www.youtube.com...

He's now Professor Emeritus of Ancient Studies (or some such) at Arizona State University, if I recall. There is a wikipedia article on him... so should be easy enough to look up.

I'm pressed for time now, (I always am!) but this is my opening. In further rounds I intend to show you the inadequacy of the KJV, and ALL other versions, mostly using contradictory or failed scripture, as well as scripture vs. the ancient writings of the Essenes, Philo of Alexandria, etc.

I look forward to your next installment.
Debate Round No. 1
KJVPrewrather

Pro

From got questions.org: https://www.gotquestions.org...

Question: "Is Jesus God? Did Jesus ever claim to be God?"

Answer: The Bible never records Jesus saying the precise words, "I am God." That does not mean, however, that He did not proclaim that He is God. Take for example Jesus" words in John 10:30, "I and the Father are one." We need only to look at the Jews" reaction to His statement to know He was claiming to be God. They tried to stone Him for this very reason: "You, a mere man, claim to be God" (John 10:33). The Jews understood exactly what Jesus was claiming"deity. When Jesus declared, "I and the Father are one," He was saying that He and the Father are of one nature and essence. John 8:58 is another example. Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth " before Abraham was born, I am!" Jews who heard this statement responded by taking up stones to kill Him for blasphemy, as the Mosaic Law commanded (Leviticus 24:16).

John reiterates the concept of Jesus" deity: "The Word [Jesus] was God" and "the Word became flesh" (John 1:1, 14). These verses clearly indicate that Jesus is God in the flesh. Acts 20:28 tells us, "Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood." Who bought the church with His own blood? Jesus Christ. And this same verse declares that God purchased His church with His own blood. Therefore, Jesus is God!

Thomas the disciple declared concerning Jesus, "My Lord and my God" (John 20:28). Jesus does not correct him. Titus 2:13 encourages us to wait for the coming of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ (see also 2 Peter 1:1). In Hebrews 1:8, the Father declares of Jesus, "But about the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, will last forever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom."" The Father refers to Jesus as "O God," indicating that Jesus is indeed God.

In Revelation, an angel instructed the apostle John to only worship God (Revelation 19:10). Several times in Scripture Jesus receives worship (Matthew 2:11; 14:33; 28:9, 17; Luke 24:52; John 9:38). He never rebukes people for worshiping Him. If Jesus were not God, He would have told people to not worship Him, just as the angel in Revelation did. There are many other passages of Scripture that argue for Jesus" deity.

The most important reason that Jesus has to be God is that, if He is not God, His death would not have been sufficient to pay the penalty for the sins of the world (1 John 2:2). A created being, which Jesus would be if He were not God, could not pay the infinite penalty required for sin against an infinite God. Only God could pay such an infinite penalty. Only God could take on the sins of the world (2 Corinthians 5:21), die, and be resurrected, proving His victory over sin and death.

Recommended Resource: Jesus: The Greatest Life of All by Charles Swindoll
Nudely

Con

Let me start with your most crucial piece of evidence. You say:

"The most important reason that Jesus has to be God is that, if He is not God, His death would not have been sufficient to pay the penalty for the sins of the world (1 John 2:2)."

You've jumped from a flimsy premise and belly flopped in a huge splat on a concrete conclusion. Who wrote the Gospel of
John? Is he the same person who wrote First John? Most scholars think so, but:

"...scholars such as Heinrich Julius Holtzmann and C. H. Dodd have maintained that the epistle and the gospel were written by different authors. There are at least two principal arguments for this view. The first is that the epistle often uses a demonstrative pronoun at the beginning of a sentence, then a particle or conjunction, followed by an explanation or definition of the demonstrative at the end of the sentence, a stylistic technique which is not used in the gospel. The second is that the author of the epistle "uses the conditional sentence in a variety of rhetorical figures which are unknown to the gospel." [Wikipedia, from First Epistle of John]

Another problem is the time lapse. The disciple would have to been very young when he was out campaigning with Jesus back around 30 AD to have written the Gospel and the rest of his books around 90 to 110 AD. For the sake of argument, however, let's suppose they actually are written by the same person.

Who was he? What do we know about him? Was he a credible source? I don't think so. The American Patriot Thomas Paine made the following observation... it's a little difficult, but follow it through to its natural conclusion and you will see that DISCIPLES DID NOT WRITE THE GOSPELS! Here is the argument:

http://www.kyroot.com...
This is reason 1127 of his 1634 problems with Christianity.
(It's only seven short paragraphs.)

Kenneth Humphreys over at http://JesusNeverExisted.com...; has an even bigger problem with the "disciples." he says:

"The fact is that for seven of the twelve, our only early source, the Gospels, say nothing about them at all. They are just names on a list.

Isn't it a tad odd that such worthies, infused with the Holy Spirit and given powers to heal the sick and cast out demons, wrote nothing, or had nothing written for them or about them? Isn't it odd that men chosen to be eye-witnesses to the mighty deeds of Jesus, wrote no eye-witness statements, left no sermons, no memoirs, no letters, no teachings, no pithy words of encouragement?"


http://www.jesusneverexisted.com...

So you've established what the Gospels say about Christ's diety, what I've done is to demonstrate through Thomas Paine that the writers of the Gospels were not any of the disciples, or, if they were, they had very faulty memories about the most important day in history... the day Jesus rose from the dead! Through Humphreys, I've shown that twelve is just a symbolic number. There are no corroborating secular accounts that 13 miracle workers were traipsing through the Levant EVEN THOUGH PEOPLE WERE LOOKING FORWARD TO THE MESSIAH!

But this isn't the weirdest part.

Luke 4:14 tells us that Jesus was known far and wide... he was famous throughout the region, and John 21:25 tells us why... because he did so many miracles (good things) that, if you tried to write about every one of them, they would fill ALL THE BOOKS IN THE WORLD!!!

Really? Forgive me for being skeptical! His ministry only lasted a year (possibly three, according to John.) But let's say Jesus had a ministry of 1000 days and did 100 good things a day, and as I followed him around I wrote 10 pages about every good thing he did. That would be 1,000,000 pages describing these works, which I'll bind in two-hundred page books, which will give me a total of 5000 books of modern-day size, but of course, these would have been written on parchment or vellum and would have taken up 10 times as much space. The point is, the miracles and good deeds so described at 10 pages apiece, wouldn't have begun to fill a medium sized library of the day.

We know that a LOT of writing was being done back then, all the "apocryphal" books about Jesus, in other words, those books which strained credulity too far to be believed, were all being written then. (Well, the Catholics eventually decided to include them after all, but then they are ALWAYS guilty of making stuff up as they go along. BURN THE HERETICS! Oops, we apologize for burning the heretics. SELL INDULGENCES! Oops, we're sorry for selling indulgences. YOU'RE GOING TO GO TO PURGATORY! Oops, there is no such place as purgatory. THE EARTH IS THE CENTER OF THE UNIVERSE! Oops, well, maybe it does revolve around the sun. On and on.)

But what do you expect when you're trying to defend a hopeless piece of fiction like the Gospel of Mark and its wild descriptions, such as the SEA of GALILEE! Oh my! That sounds really huge! In Wikipedia's list of the 37 largest LAKES, do you know where the SEA of Galilee ranks? Hmmm... it didn't make the list! That's odd... the 37th largest lake has a surface area of 4,190 sq. km. Do you want to take a stab at how big the SEA of Galilee is? It's a miniscule trifle only "weighing in" at 166 sq. km!

https://en.wikipedia.org...;

Why are such exaggerations necessary, either as to the number of books it would take to describe Jesus' good works, or the size of the SEA that he walked upon... or how famous Jesus was (the Luke 4:14 verse referred to above.) Certainly they were simply story-telling devices to better show the battles of a single frail human against the BIG BAD WORLD!

Philo was just around the corner, so to speak, in Alexandria. He would have LOVED to meet the Messiah! He never heard of Jesus. The Essenes were closer still, their contemporary writings being locked away for centuries to come alongside the Dead Sea scrolls, etc. Not a peep about Jesus. Or Pilate, or Herod killing the first-born sons of Bethlehem.

Well, gotta git again, but I'm glad to have a chance to inform you, as gently as possible: there is no tooth fairy, no Easter bunny, no Santa Clause; no Jesus; no Allah, no Zeus nor Zalmoxis.
Debate Round No. 2
KJVPrewrather

Pro

Question: If Jesus is not God, explain these: John 10:30 I and my Father are one.
Nudely

Con

"Question: If Jesus is not God, explain [this:] John 10:30 I and my Father are one."

OK, I personally don't think there was a Jesus who lives into the Biblical narrative, and here's why. Of the four gospels, researchers/scholars believe that Mark was the first one written. They think this is the case because just about the entire book is also found in Matthew and Luke (retold slightly differently,) but then Matthew and Luke have extra stuff that Mark doesn't. Interestingly, one of the first new items the writer of Matthew brings us (whoever it might have been) is Jesus' virgin birth. Welllllll..... when you start looking into where he got that notion from, you see it was misappropriated from a prophecy concerning King Ahaz, and Matthew being unfamiliar with the language, confused the translation of the word for "young woman" with "virgin." One of the other new tidbits that the writer of Matthew brings us that the writer of Mark didn't, was the genealogy of Jesus' human father-figure Joseph. Unfortunately the writer of Luke decided to try the same trick and came up with a different set of people! Oh, the apologists fall all over themselves trying to reconcile the two, but their best efforts sound hokey--to me anyway.

But how did the writers of Mark and John fail to mention something so important as the virgin birth?! That is no small detail! The reason, of course, is that successive writers are revising the story to try to cover up booboos from previous writers and, ultimately, try to steer the storyline in the direction that they want to see things go.

So, to answer your specific question directly, John was the last gospel written (there was no collected New Testament at this time, obviously) and the writer must have decided that the previous writers had been too subtle, that they implied Jesus was God, but hadn't really come out and said so. So, BAM! John 10:30... "I and my Father are one."

What's interesting about the book of John, is the opening lines about the LOGOS which is pure Greek Stoicism. "In the beginning was the Word (logos), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God... etc." It's lines like these which underscore just how much of the New Testament is borrowed from other sources. Oh, the same is true of the Old Testament as well... Compare the Sumerian story of Gilgamesh with that of Noah... in fact, here's a link to a Christian apologist website: http://www.icr.org...;. They, of course, believe that the older Sumerian version is corrupt, and the newer Hebrew version is perfect... OK, yeah, whatever. When you read a similar comparison on atheist sites, the claim is that the Hebrews copied the essential bits from the older story. Makes more sense to me, but help yourself to whichever opinion suits you better.

Bottom line:

You believe the Bible, as I once did, but I suspect the difference between us is that you've never studied the Bible from an outside perspective. I was happy as a Christian. I studied Bible commentarys, dictionaries, atlases, concordances, etc. I knew that the goal was to do good and lead people to the truth. I wanted to know what was the motivation behind these evil people who were refering to the Bible myth... the mythical Jesus... the legend of Jesus, etc. Why did they want to see Christianity fold when the largest humanitarian efforts were always led by Christians of all sorts?

Now I know!

Christianity does do some nominal good, but it is only in recent decades that the church has been mostly tamed. The history of the church is a long sordid story in which hundreds of thousands of goodd, innocent people were disemboweled, or burned at the stake. Popes were corrupt, Protestant reformers became harsh persecutors of heretics, apostates and even their own believers! People became so hysterical that they not only held trials for humans, but also for any animals that were thought guilty of withcraft! A rooster allegedly laid an egg in Medieval Europe and was burned for his troubles, but other animals also suffered under zealous religious tyrants. Christians owned slaves (because the Bible said it was OK) and the white cultured westerners referred to Native Americans as savages and heathens because they didn't believe in Christ. It ws OK to steal their land because "God certainly willed it to be so." The buffalo and many other animals were nearly or completely hunted to extinction because "God gave man dominion over the animals..." etc.

Today, the hideous side of the church is reflected in congregartions like that of Obama's pastor, Reverend Wright, (and the whole Black 'Liberation' Theology movement,) as well as a whole host of millionaire televangelists that live the high life at the expense of sappy parishioners who are ready to do anything for blessings in their life. "Just send $29.95, and our prayer team will submit special supplications requesting divine intervention on your behalf!" These hucksters are bilking the American public and they know it. Of course, you can also throw the Westboro Baptist Church on the top of that pile, yeah, the www.godhatesfaggots.com people... that used to be a valid website... I'm not clicking it to find out. People get so nutty about their religion... you've likely seen congregations of babbling fools who think that they're 'speaking in tongues,' or even worse, the ones where the minister walks down the aisle, touching people on the forehead and they go into convulsions as the 'power of the Spirit' enters their body. Yeah, some people are completely bowled over and lie there spastically short-circuiting while the other congregants are shouting their Hosannahs and Hallelujahs.

You're asked to have faith in something, but then you're told, if you don't believe whatever, then you're going to BURN IN HELL FOREVER! What's worse, is you're told this when you're a little kid and don't really have any power of discernment. How nice. God is all powerful and knows everything... is this the best system that he could up with... scaring people into believing in him?

Well, if I'm wrong, maybe I'll be able to find a pedophile priest to forgive me.
Debate Round No. 3
KJVPrewrather

Pro

John 10:30 I and my Father are one.
Nudely

Con

Same as above.
Debate Round No. 4
KJVPrewrather

Pro

I have provided Biblical evidence proving you wrong.
Nudely

Con

I have provided evidence demonstrating that the Bible is wrong. So sorry to see you chickening out on what had the promise of being a great debate.
Debate Round No. 5
4 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Posted by whiteflame 10 months ago
whiteflame
*******************************************************************
>Reported vote: BryanMullinsNOCHRISTMAS2// Mod action: Removed<

7 points to Con. Reasons for voting decision: Con by default.

[*Reason for removal*] Not an RFD.
************************************************************************
Posted by BryanMullinsNOCHRISTMAS2 10 months ago
BryanMullinsNOCHRISTMAS2
No, you guys need counseling by a psychologist.
Posted by Izzy55101 10 months ago
Izzy55101
Christians believe in the Holy Trinity: The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit. They all combine to make one.

If you think of it like an egg. You have the shell, the yolk and the egg white, each can be separated but they are all from the egg. It is the same case for the Trinity.

John chapter 1 talks of the Word being God. The Word it is talking about is Jesus. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

' And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.' Jesus is God.

2 Peter 1:1 . . . our God and Savior Jesus Christ:
Posted by nobleislandbag 10 months ago
nobleislandbag
Yes. Jesus is God.
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